Does the Bahai Faith hope and intend to be a World Theocracy?

[oldbadger]

Does the Bahai Faith hope and intend to be a World Theocracy?
Several days ago, on another Thread, in so many words, I wrote that Bahai is a theocracy, and would rule the world, legislating, controlling, policing and (if necessary) punishing as it decides.
This was refuted by another member, @loverofhumanity who explained that all of my information had been gathered from web-sites that are not connected to the Bahai Faith. Unfortunately we had strayed, and were writing on a thread about Jesus, and so I proposed that I would open a thread in 'Religious Debates'.
And so, I propose that the Bahai Faith's main objective is to, one day, if it can gain enough support, rule the World. I propose that this is not a good idea, because at the point where Bahai rests control of the world, there will not be an Opposition, and no outsiders will have the benefit of any vote at local, national or world-wide levels. There can be no return, no change of heart, no re-election.
That's it...........

 

[`mud]

Does that end at Nirvana ?
Sounds neat, doesn't it.
I doubt that anyone will ever get there.
If not....who cares except me and you.
~
'mud

 

[George-ananda]

I will vote 'Yes' on the theocracy question. (I am glad @oldbadger thought to put this in the "General Religious Debates" DIR)

Just as a background, I was a Baha'i in the early 1980's and studied under a Baha'i with an encyclopedic knowledge of the Faith. Although no longer a Baha'i, I am also not anti-Baha'i as I still like the people and a lot of things about the Faith.

Basically what I believe is that there is more to the Baha'i Faith than its front door presentation understood by many of the modern western Baha'i people.

The Baha'i Faith is a new dispensation from God that is in the course of time to replace the previous dispensations and major religions (not by force or coercion) but by people seeing the superiority of the Baha'i faith and administration over the crumbling religious and governmental institutions of earlier times. Eventually the faith will create a world Theocracy that will usher the world into its future 'Golden Age'. The Baha'i Faith will be the center of the world's religious and administrative heart. The peoples of the world will be overwhelmingly Baha'i by free choice.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The world needs another theocracy like a fish needs a bicycle...

 

[Shia Islam]

And so, I propose that the Bahai Faith's main objective is to, one day, if it can gain enough support, rule the World.

This seems to be the goal of most of the major religions, whether they are true religions or fake ones.

 

[oldbadger]

Wow! Nobody has eaten me yet!
I have given myself a special rule on this thread that I can only quote from official Baha'i web sites, so as to make my replies more acceptable to all, but so far I haven't had to quote anything!

I would welcome any posts which contend against my proposal. Just sayin'.

 

[oldbadger]

Does that end at Nirvana ?
Sounds neat, doesn't it.
I doubt that anyone will ever get there.
If not....who cares except me and you.
~
'mud

Hi 'mud.
I begin to think that there might actually be a nirvana, but that it is within our minds and hearts, and that those who discover it might mostly be found in mental institutions. Of course, since the first will be last, and last first, one needs to reverse everything.

 

[LuisDantas]

Does the Bahai Faith hope and intend to be a World Theocracy?

I sure think so.

What exactly that entails and how strongly they feel about it will likely vary quite a lot among them, however. There is hoping and then there is acting to further hope, with various degrees of daring and regard for those who do not share of those hopes.

 

[oldbadger]

I sure think so.

What exactly that entails and how strongly they feel about it will likely vary quite a lot among them, however. There is hoping and then there is acting to further hope, with various degrees of daring and regard for those who do not share of those hopes.

Agreed.
The thing is, mostly everybody thinks that if they ruled the world that everything would be beautiful!
Like the song, 'If I ruled the World'.

So it's not so bad if a group or religion say so; it is when a group denies that it does itself even more harm.

Now....if I ruled the world...... hmmm....

 

[oldbadger]

This is part of the 12th Basic Bahai Principle (The underlining is mine):-

The hearts of all mankind shall willingly and eagerly turn their trust and loyalty to this world governing body, as all the people of the world shall see with their third eye opened -- of their intellect -- that this is the plan that God Himself has given us all for the salvation and redemption of all human kind. Already the world has seen three prototypes, or imitations, of this world Parliament. First in the World Court, secondly in the League of Nations, and third in the form of the United Nation's Organization. These three bodies, however, failed to achieve the unifying force to unite all the peoples and nations of the world, as these failed attempts did not originate from God but from the imitation of man, they lacked the spiritual endowment of authority to unite the world together as one family, one race of humanity. This government, the Kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven, does not originate from the minds of men but has been delivered unto all humanity from God Almighty via the Supreme and Universal Manifestation of Himself, which is the second coming of Christ in the person of Baha'u'llah.
The world commonwealth outlined by Baha'u'llah is governed by the Universal House of Justice, this is a World Parliament freely elected by the peoples of the earth, currently in its appointed stage. It must have authority to enforce its decisions upon any dilatory or rebellious member of the commonwealth, and such action must be as swift and certain as it would be in the case of an individual who breaks the law. No such world government an succeed unless backed by the authority of the whole human race. This is the principle of unity and oneness of mankind with the complete abandonment of prejudices, on which the future of mankind depends.
This world authority must, in the interests of the whole human race, establish law in the place of war. It must strictly limit the armed forces of every nation according to their internal needs. It must plan and put into practice a world system of economics which will remove the present evils of waste, inferior quality, want in the midst of plenty. It must assume sole control over tariffs, excise, sources of raw material. It must foster a spirit of world civilization among all the people of the planet.

 

[psychoslice]

I personally would love to see the Bahai faith take over much of religion that we have to day, such as Christianity.

 

[Sen McGlinn]

Does the Bahai Faith hope and intend to be a World Theocracy?
.... I propose that the Bahai Faith's main objective is to, one day, if it can gain enough support, rule the World.

God forbid no: the Bahai Faith has a very strong principle of the separation of church and state, which Baha'u'llah argues from "Render unto Caesar", as well as other arguments. He writes:

The sovereigns of the earth have been and are the manifestations of the power, the grandeur and the majesty of God. This Wronged One hath at no time dealt deceitfully with anyone.... Regard for the rank of sovereigns is divinely ordained, as is clearly attested by the words of the Prophets of God and His chosen ones. He Who is the Spirit (Jesus) — may peace be upon Him — was asked: “O Spirit of God! Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar or not?” And He made reply: “Yea, render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and to God the things that are God’s.” He forbade it not. These two sayings are, in the estimation of men of insight, one and the same, for if that which belonged to Caesar had not come from God, He would have forbidden it. ....
(Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 89)

"Know thou that We have annulled the rule of the sword, as an aid to Our Cause, and substituted for it the power born of the utterance of men. ... Say: O people! Sow not the seeds of discord among men, and refrain from contending with your neighbor, for your Lord hath committed the world and the cities thereof to the care of the kings of the earth, and made them the emblems of His own power, by virtue of the sovereignty He hath chosen to bestow upon them. He hath refused to reserve for Himself any share whatever of this world’s dominion. To this He Who is Himself the Eternal Truth will testify. The things He hath reserved for Himself are the cities of men’s hearts, that He may cleanse them from all earthly defilements, and enable them to draw nigh unto the hallowed Spot which the hands of the infidel can never profane.
(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, 303)


"In the Epistle to the Romans Saint Paul hath written: “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God; the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God.” And further: “For he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.” He saith that the appearance of the kings, and their majesty and power are of God.
(Baha’u’llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, 91)

"… God, …hath ever regarded, and will continue to regard, the hearts of men as His own, His exclusive possession. All else, whether pertaining to land or sea, whether riches or glory, He hath bequeathed unto the Kings and rulers of the earth. … The instruments which are essential to the immediate protection, the security and assurance of the human race have been entrusted to the hands, and lie in the grasp, of the governors of human society. This is the wish of God and His decree…. .” (Gleanings, CII 206-7)

"Dispute not with any one concerning the things of this world and its affairs, for God hath abandoned them to such as have set their affection upon them. Out of the whole world He hath chosen for Himself the hearts of men — hearts which the hosts of revelation and of utterance can subdue. Thus hath it been ordained by the Fingers of Baha, upon the Tablet of God’s irrevocable decree, by the behest of Him Who is the Supreme Ordainer, the All-Knowing.
(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, 279)

etc. etc: the theme is repeated throughout the Bahai writings, and Abdu'l-Baha includes it some of his "numbered lists" of the essential Bahai teachings, such as this one:

..
Eighth, the universal peace. A supreme tribunal should be formed by all the governments and religious communities [note the plural ~ sen], in general elections, and any differences and disputes arising among the governments and peoples should be settled in that tribunal, so that they do not lead to war.

Ninth, religion is separated from politics. Religion does not enter into political matters. In fact, it is linked with the hearts, not with the world of bodies. The leaders of religion should devote themselves to teaching and training the souls and propagating good morals, and they should not enter into political matters.

Tenth, the education and training of women, ....​

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I personally would love to see the Bahai faith take over much of religion that we have to day, such as Christianity.

Why?

 

[Sen McGlinn]

Old Badger: the site you found and quoted (uhj.net) is a fake. Not your fault, it is a misinformation site designed to deceive. It uses a photo of the the real Bahai World Centre in Israel, but it was posted by an individual or individuals not based in Israel (I think it is based in the USA, but I can't find the "who owns" tool to prove it). The actual House of Justice site is here:
http://universalhouseofjustice.bahai.org/
and also here:
http://www.bahai.org/

You can spot the difference easily: the site that abbreviates its name to UHJ is the fake, the one with the full name Universal House of Justice is real. Also the one with "third eye" and "throne of David" and other references that sound like the looney fringe, and design that looks amateur, is the fake one.

 

[Shem Ben Noah]

The world needs another theocracy like a fish needs a bicycle...

IDK, the world needs SOMETHING, don'tcha think? Depends on the theocracy I imagine, and how peaceful & tolerant it is. Surely something could give us better than secular world has, give us better choices than these megalomaniacs Hillery and Donald, eh? What theocracy would be so cruel as to do that I ask?

 

[oldbadger]

Old Badger: the site you found and quoted (uhj.net) is a fake. Not your fault, it is a misinformation site designed to deceive. It uses a photo of the the real Bahai World Centre in Israel, but it was posted by an individual or individuals not based in Israel (I think it is based in the USA, but I can't find the "who owns" tool to prove it). The actual House of Justice site is here:
http://universalhouseofjustice.bahai.org/
and also here:
http://www.bahai.org/

You can spot the difference easily: the site that abbreviates its name to UHJ is the fake, the one with the full name Universal House of Justice is real. Also the one with "third eye" and "throne of David" and other references that sound like the looney fringe, and design that looks amateur, is the fake one.

Hi Sen,
Just a sec.....
All you have to do is to confirm that the actual words which I copied from the 12th and pasted are not the true words of the 12th.

I am not worried about which site is which, it is the words quoted that matter, surely?

And for some reason you did not quote from the 12th?

Just sayin'....

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Wow! Nobody has eaten me yet!
I have given myself a special rule on this thread that I can only quote from official Baha'i web sites, so as to make my replies more acceptable to all, but so far I haven't had to quote anything!

I would welcome any posts which contend against my proposal. Just sayin'.

You are simply wrong.

 

[Sen McGlinn]

Hi Sen,
Just a sec.....
All you have to do is to confirm that the actual words which I copied from the 12th and pasted are not the true words of the 12th.

I am not worried about which site is which, it is the words quoted that matter, surely?

And for some reason you did not quote from the 12th?

Just sayin'....

You are assuming that Abdu'l-Baha gave just one list of 12 principles, so that you can compare principle 12 in the authentic list with principle 12 on the UHJ site. But Abdu'l-Baha gave not one but maybe forty different lists of principles. This was like his "stump speech" (or one of them) as he travelled, speaking sometimes 2 or 3 times a day in different gatherings, and he changed the length and contents of the list according to the audience and the time available. Peter Terry has done a short study of 37 of these lists of Bahai principles from Abdu'l-Baha (http://bahai-library.com/terry_explanation_teachings_bahaullah) and I know some he missed: the one I quoted is not in his study. So the thing you are looking for, a canonical 12th principle, does not exist. What I can say however is that the uhj.net claims that the 12th principle is "the Universal House of Justice with the Davidic king," and this principle does not appear in any of the authentic lists, at any number. You can confirm this by using the search function to find "davidic" in Peter Terry's overview, cited above. You can also go to the Bahai Reference Library at http://reference.bahai.org/en/ and search for the word "davidic." No hits at all. Or you could download Ocean, a database that "contains over 1000 books of 10 world religions in English as well as collections in six other languages (French, Spanish, German, Russian, Dutch, and Portuguese)" and is absolutely free, via the page http://bahai-library.com/jones_ocean, and check it out for yourself, as well as impressing girls with your fabulous knowledge of scriptures in 7 languages. (Your mileage may vary).

The particular list I quoted from -- one that Peter Terry missed because it's in Persian, and his Persian was rudimentary when he wrote that study -- is online here:
https://abdulbahatalks.wordpress.co...principles-as-taught-by-abdul-baha-in-london/
But it contains 11 principles, so I can't say what the 12th would have been had Abdu'l-Baha had more time, and/or wanted to speak longer.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I personally would love to see the Bahai faith take over much of religion that we have to day, such as Christianity.

Thanks Psychoslice.

We are 'the new kid on the block' so to speak.

Humanity is imperfect and never will ever be perfect so the Baha'i Faith does not represent a form of Utopia. The Baha'i Faith is only guaranteed one thousand years before the next Manifestation of God appears. So after about 850 years.

Our primary purpose till then is to help bring about the next stage in our development - world peace. As everyone can see this is not an overnight event but a slow process which we are working towards now.

We believe peace can only be attained by belief in the oneness and equality of all humanity. So basically to have peace, people need to see the entire human race as our family instead of just our nationality, race or faith.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This is part of the 12th Basic Bahai Principle (The underlining is mine):-

The hearts of all mankind shall willingly and eagerly turn their trust and loyalty to this world governing body, as all the people of the world shall see with their third eye opened -- of their intellect -- that this is the plan that God Himself has given us all for the salvation and redemption of all human kind. Already the world has seen three prototypes, or imitations, of this world Parliament. First in the World Court, secondly in the League of Nations, and third in the form of the United Nation's Organization. These three bodies, however, failed to achieve the unifying force to unite all the peoples and nations of the world, as these failed attempts did not originate from God but from the imitation of man, they lacked the spiritual endowment of authority to unite the world together as one family, one race of humanity. This government, the Kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven, does not originate from the minds of men but has been delivered unto all humanity from God Almighty via the Supreme and Universal Manifestation of Himself, which is the second coming of Christ in the person of Baha'u'llah.
The world commonwealth outlined by Baha'u'llah is governed by the Universal House of Justice, this is a World Parliament freely elected by the peoples of the earth, currently in its appointed stage. It must have authority to enforce its decisions upon any dilatory or rebellious member of the commonwealth, and such action must be as swift and certain as it would be in the case of an individual who breaks the law. No such world government an succeed unless backed by the authority of the whole human race. This is the principle of unity and oneness of mankind with the complete abandonment of prejudices, on which the future of mankind depends.
This world authority must, in the interests of the whole human race, establish law in the place of war. It must strictly limit the armed forces of every nation according to their internal needs. It must plan and put into practice a world system of economics which will remove the present evils of waste, inferior quality, want in the midst of plenty. It must assume sole control over tariffs, excise, sources of raw material. It must foster a spirit of world civilization among all the people of the planet.

Hi old badger. I was looking for your thread but didn't find it until just now.

This is not authentic or authoritative Bahá'í literature. It's fake, copycat edited stuff. How do you expect us to conduct a discussion on stuff like this which is highly misleading?