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Does The Bible Contain Errors And Contradictions

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Hello, my friend! Hope you are doing well!

They [the Gospels] are riddled with contradictions.
You think so? Then could you post one?
Maybe the one that’s most obvious to you?

(No gish, please.)

I have an account about a cold-case homicide detective who was initially a skeptic, but then was encouraged to examine the Gospels on his own:

“Jim Warner Wallace

J Warner Wallace is not a Bible scholar by training. Wallace spent his career pouring over transcripts of old court cases and eyewitness interviews, interrogating suspects years after the events, and generally hearing accounts of crimes second or third hand from both the suspicious and sincere.

Wallace was a sceptic and unbeliever when he first read the Gospels, so was not the kind of person one would expect to read contradictions charitably. Surprisingly, Wallace found the Gospels to bear all of the hallmarks of the eyewitness testimonies he had spent his life reading. In fact, they read so similar to eyewitness accounts, he began to believe that they were true, and became a believer.

But what did a trained detective and sceptic like Wallace do about the contradictions he saw? Believe it or not, the contradictions made the accounts seem all the more credible to Wallace. Eyewitnesses don’t always notice the same things, remember the events in an identical way, and sometimes they contradict one another. In fact, Wallace was more inclined to be suspicious if the eyewitnesses did not tell their stories without any contradictions. Why? Because if the eyewitnesses all told the same story with the same details and no disagreements, it’s likely that they intentionally coordinated their tales, and their recounting was not sincerely from their own recollection, but was influenced by others who remember differently. Or worse, it was a collaboration to make up a story.

Perfectly coordinated accounts sound more like fiction to Wallace than do accounts which remember a different number of angels at the tomb, or remember Jesus saying different final words on the STAKE (cross). This is the way in which people recall things they witnessed, and made Wallace more comfortable with the accounts in the long run.

Wallace is convinced of the accuracy of the Gospel accounts because of what he calls undesigned coincidences: small details in each Gospel which clarify small details in another. For instance, one Gospel has Jesus first invite a group of fishermen to join his ministry while they are making repairs to their fishing nets. Another Gospel mentions that immediately prior to him calling them, they had made a large catch of fish which had torn their nets, but omits the detail of them making repairs.

One Gospel says that, as Jesus fed the 5,000, they were seated on green grass – an extreme rarity in the arid region in which the event happened. Another Gospel does not mention the fresh grass, but does say that the event happened in the springtime, which is the only season in which the grass is green in this geographic region.

These numerous small details are scattered across all four Gospels and are exactly, Wallace says, what one sees in eyewitness accounts. “

Take care of yourself, old badger.
 

McBell

Unbound
I have an account about a cold-case homicide detective who was initially a skeptic, but then was encouraged to examine the Gospels on his own:

“Jim Warner Wallace

J Warner Wallace is not a Bible scholar by training. Wallace spent his career pouring over transcripts of old court cases and eyewitness interviews, interrogating suspects years after the events, and generally hearing accounts of crimes second or third hand from both the suspicious and sincere.

Wallace was a sceptic and unbeliever when he first read the Gospels, so was not the kind of person one would expect to read contradictions charitably. Surprisingly, Wallace found the Gospels to bear all of the hallmarks of the eyewitness testimonies he had spent his life reading. In fact, they read so similar to eyewitness accounts, he began to believe that they were true, and became a believer.

But what did a trained detective and sceptic like Wallace do about the contradictions he saw? Believe it or not, the contradictions made the accounts seem all the more credible to Wallace. Eyewitnesses don’t always notice the same things, remember the events in an identical way, and sometimes they contradict one another. In fact, Wallace was more inclined to be suspicious if the eyewitnesses did not tell their stories without any contradictions. Why? Because if the eyewitnesses all told the same story with the same details and no disagreements, it’s likely that they intentionally coordinated their tales, and their recounting was not sincerely from their own recollection, but was influenced by others who remember differently. Or worse, it was a collaboration to make up a story.

Perfectly coordinated accounts sound more like fiction to Wallace than do accounts which remember a different number of angels at the tomb, or remember Jesus saying different final words on the STAKE (cross). This is the way in which people recall things they witnessed, and made Wallace more comfortable with the accounts in the long run.

Wallace is convinced of the accuracy of the Gospel accounts because of what he calls undesigned coincidences: small details in each Gospel which clarify small details in another. For instance, one Gospel has Jesus first invite a group of fishermen to join his ministry while they are making repairs to their fishing nets. Another Gospel mentions that immediately prior to him calling them, they had made a large catch of fish which had torn their nets, but omits the detail of them making repairs.

One Gospel says that, as Jesus fed the 5,000, they were seated on green grass – an extreme rarity in the arid region in which the event happened. Another Gospel does not mention the fresh grass, but does say that the event happened in the springtime, which is the only season in which the grass is green in this geographic region.

These numerous small details are scattered across all four Gospels and are exactly, Wallace says, what one sees in eyewitness accounts. “

Take care of yourself, old badger.
Is it a contest?
Do you also have readily available stories of those who reject the gospels?
Or the Bible?

If not, why not?

If I find a person who rejected the gospels for every person you find who accepted them and we go tit for tat for say a hundred years, what does it prove?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
This argument is related to “If there’s a God, why do bad things happen?”

I and other JW’s on here have answered that question…. @URAVIP2ME , would you like to, using Genesis 3? (Or another way.)
Your answer would be the same as mine.
1 Corinthians 1:10


Jehovah’s “omnipotence” has always been governed & regulated by His love & justice. And patience.
And we should be thankful. (Whether people understand the reasons behind it or not.)
Otherwise, many of us wouldn’t be here.
Sorry, but your sense of justice appears to be faulty. A human would not be a threat to an omnipotent God. There would be no need of punishment. Your version of god makes him very flawed and human.
 
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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Hello, my friend! Hope you are doing well!
Wow! It's a long time since I last saw your name or read your posts. I'm older and tattier but I'm OK today. :)
You think so? Then could you post one?
Maybe the one that’s most obvious to you?

(No gish, please.)
Well, how about the gospel accounts of the last week? Do you need detailed examples? The whole of G-John's just tells a completely differing story, but then I reckon that the young church influenced most of that.
What do you believe Jesus did in Jerusalem and Temple after arriving in the city on Palm Sunday? You tell me you version and then I'll quote you mine from the bible. You've got a 50/50 chance of being in agreement with me!

I have an account about a cold-case homicide detective who was initially a skeptic, but then was encouraged to examine the Gospels on his own: Jim Warner Wallace
And all the best to him. And I have one of an Ordained priest who translated the Dead Sea scrolls and was a respected scholar who researched the gospels in such detail that he lost his faith and left the church. Geza Vermes.

These one off examples mean nothing to you or me, I hope. We have to research for ourselves, I think.

Take care of yourself, old badger.
And to you HC.....it's good to see your name again.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Your response fails rather quickly when you mention Adam.
And even if that myth was true it would still be a failed concept. God is supposed to be omnipotent. He does not need vengeance. That is a human emotion. He does not need justice. That is a human concept. If he "hates sin" he is omnipotent and can magic it away. There is simply not need for substitutionary atonement. It serves no purpose.
The Law was equal justice: life for life which is Not vengeance
Sinner Satan challenged God so for God to 'magic' it away then you would be calling God a bully, afraid of the challenge.
' Touch our flesh....' meaning that under bad health troubles we would Not serve God - Job 2:4-5
Only the passing of time would show if Satan was right or wrong
Plus, if God immediately got rid of Adam we simply would Not be here to address Satan's challenge
Both Job and Jesus under adverse conditions proved Satan a liar and so can we
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Sorry, but your sense of justice appears to be faulty. A human would not be a threat to an omnipotent God. There would be no need of punishment. Your version of god makes him very flawed and human.
Of course agree a human would be No threat to God
It was Not a human who challenged the man Job but a super human - Job 2:4-5
Sinner Satan claims that under suffering conditions No one would serve God.
Both Job and Jesus under adverse conditions proved Satan's claim as wrong and so can we
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
.................................................. If I find a person who rejected the gospels for every person you find who accepted them and we go tit for tat for say a hundred years, what does it prove?
More than 100 yrs because even in Jesus' day MANY would prove false to him - Matthew 7:21-23
Even in Jeremiah's day MANY were proving false - Jeremiah 14:14; 27:15
So, what that proves is: the Bible is accurate
Remember: Jesus forewarned us his followers would be hated - Matthew 10:22; 24:9; Luke 21:17; John 15:21
That could possibly include hated by people who reject the gospel accounts - 2nd Peter 3:3; Jude verse 17-18
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Of course agree a human would be No threat to God
It was Not a human who challenged the man Job but a super human - Job 2:4-5
Sinner Satan claims that under suffering conditions No one would serve God.
Both Job and Jesus under adverse conditions proved Satan's claim as wrong and so can we
Let's try to be serious. The mythical parts of the Bible do not help you, especially the ones where God is the bad guy. But at least it appears you agree that there is no need to believe or anything else since humans are not a threat to God.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
More than 100 yrs because even in Jesus' day MANY would prove false to him - Matthew 7:21-23
Even in Jeremiah's day MANY were proving false - Jeremiah 14:14; 27:15
So, what that proves is: the Bible is accurate
Remember: Jesus forewarned us his followers would be hated - Matthew 10:22; 24:9; Luke 21:17; John 15:21
That could possibly include hated by people who reject the gospel accounts - 2nd Peter 3:3; Jude verse 17-18
No, it does not. Just because the writers could seem some obvious things does not mean that they saw all things. One error alone shows that it is inaccurate, but it is easy to show that the Bible is loaded with inaccuracies.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The Law was equal justice: life for life which is Not vengeance
Sinner Satan challenged God so for God to 'magic' it away then you would be calling God a bully, afraid of the challenge.
' Touch our flesh....' meaning that under bad health troubles we would Not serve God - Job 2:4-5
Only the passing of time would show if Satan was right or wrong
Plus, if God immediately got rid of Adam we simply would Not be here to address Satan's challenge
Both Job and Jesus under adverse conditions proved Satan a liar and so can we
I think I understand what he is trying to say to you. The Tanakh teaches that every man is responsible for his own behavior. We cannot say that we are being punished for the sin of Adam and Eve.

And I would like to add my own thought -- Adam and Eve are not historical people. They are characters in an awesome fictitious story.

We should never say, "It was JUST myth" because myth is an incredibly powerful form of literature. You cannot beat fiction for transmitting moral teachings.

Anyhow, Humanity has existed for 200,000 years (some say even longer). WE have an inclination to evil, but we also have an inclination to good. Our evil inclination doesn't come from Adam's sin. It is simply the remnants of our animal instincts. These instincts evolved because they helped us stay alive. However, upon the evolution of our moral conscience, suddenly there were times when our conscience would say "Don't do that," but our instincts would say, "Oh yeah? Try to stop me." And THAT is what sin is.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I think I understand what he is trying to say to you. The Tanakh teaches that every man is responsible for his own behavior. We cannot say that we are being punished for the sin of Adam and Eve.
And I would like to add my own thought -- Adam and Eve are not historical people. They are characters in an awesome fictitious story.
We should never say, "It was JUST myth" because myth is an incredibly powerful form of literature. You cannot beat fiction for transmitting moral teachings.
Anyhow, Humanity has existed for 200,000 years (some say even longer). WE have an inclination to evil, but we also have an inclination to good. Our evil inclination doesn't come from Adam's sin. It is simply the remnants of our animal instincts. These instincts evolved because they helped us stay alive. However, upon the evolution of our moral conscience, suddenly there were times when our conscience would say "Don't do that," but our instincts would say, "Oh yeah? Try to stop me." And THAT is what sin is.
Yes, we are all imperfect that includes our imperfect heart - Jeremiah 17:9; 10:23
Our imperfect heart urges us to do something then after we have done it the heart give us all the reasons why we should not have done what we did in the first place. Thus, being imperfect we have a traitor heart within us.
Before Adam broke God's Law his inclination was towards / doing good
Then, after breaking the Law father Adam's inclination leaned Not only towards good but also leaned towards bad \
If mankind has an evolved moral conscience then why is there so much violence and war today?
Evolved morals would mean doing better Not worse as the daily NEWS shows
2nd Timothy 3:1-5,13 reads like the daily news
If Adam was fiction then the whole Jewish nation believes in fiction. See the chronological record starting at 1st Chronicles chapter One
Besides, since Jesus believed in Adam as a real person then the all in the NT believed in fiction
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
You are in denial if you don't understand that people exist who have studied the bible, and still reject it.

I agree with you, and, as a former Christian, I refer to what you are saying as "removing the rose-colored glasses." I believe this is what helped me better understand the Bible while I was deconverting from Christianity. It was a genuine reexamination of my beliefs, which eventually led me to renounce my belief and faith in God and abandon my Christian faith. My deconversion slowly began as I was training to be a street preacher and an evangelism team leader. However, my questions and doubts about God, Jesus, and the Bible became even more substantial while I was assisting my nephew in obtaining his Master of Theological Studies (MTS) degree in order to become an ordained minister. In fact, our comprehensive reading and study of the Bible and Christian theology led us both to deconvert from Christianity. During my thirty years as a devout Christian, I genuinely believed that reading and studying the Bible on a daily basis would deepen my Christian faith, yet my thorough reading and study of the Bible gradually caused me to no longer believe in God, Jesus, and the Bible. I essentially studied my way out of my beliefs, which eventually led me to renounce my belief in God and my Christian faith.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Before Adam broke God's Law his inclination was towards / doing good
We are simply going to have to agree to disagree agreeably. In my view, Adam never existed -- its a wonderful myth, but not history. At no time in our history have we ever been completely good or completely evil. We have always, always been a mix.
If Adam was fiction then the whole Jewish nation believes in fiction.
First of all, it is always a mistake to assume Jews agree on anything. We have a saying, "Two Jews, three opinions."

While Orthodox Jews often believe Adam to be historical, they are only a minority of Jews.

The great sage Maimonides, who is adored by all religious Jews, wrote that the creation account is allegorical, not literal.

By the time you get to Reform Judaism, it is very rare to find a Jew there that believes Adam is historical.

And remember that many Jews are secular, even Atheist.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
And I have one of an Ordained priest who translated the Dead Sea scrolls and was a respected scholar who researched the gospels in such detail that he lost his faith and left the church. Geza Vermes.
Leaving, ie., losing faith in, the church is not the same as leaving, ie., losing faith in, the Bible.

Is it?

I’ve known many who left the church, while strengthening their faith in the Bible… they became my brothers and sisters (JW’s).


I’m sure you’ll agree, that losing faith in Catholicism or another church, is not synonymous with losing faith in the Bible.

There are those who have, though; but that’s similar to “throwing the Baby out with the Bathwater.”

Now the following has a bearing on this topic, so please “bear” with me (pardon the pun)….
Who does the Bible say is the ruler of this world? (I think you know.)
Then we should expect that, if the Bible is from God, it would be a prime target of attack.

There are corrupted teachings within Christendom everywhere.
From influencing men to take God’s own Name out of the Bible (which began with the Jews), to “Christian” brothers fighting and killing each other (directly disobeying Christ’s command to ‘love one another’), to the God-dishonoring doctrine of Hellfire (which the O.M. [oldest manuscript] Bibles don’t even mention)….etc., etc….

….we see tampering & corruption on a scale way beyond any other religious texts!

Have a good day.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
We are simply going to have to agree to disagree agreeably. In my view, Adam never existed -- its a wonderful myth, but not history. At no time in our history have we ever been completely good or completely evil. We have always, always been a mix.

First of all, it is always a mistake to assume Jews agree on anything. We have a saying, "Two Jews, three opinions."

While Orthodox Jews often believe Adam to be historical, they are only a minority of Jews.

The great sage Maimonides, who is adored by all religious Jews, wrote that the creation account is allegorical, not literal.

By the time you get to Reform Judaism, it is very rare to find a Jew there that believes Adam is historical.

And remember that many Jews are secular, even Atheist.
Wow!

Do you think God approves of such division?

Are you an atheist Jew? As in, ethnically Jewish only?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
You are in denial if you don't understand that people exist who have studied the bible, and still reject it.
Oh, I know that.

But anyone who’s studied under Christendom’s influence, doesn’t really “know” the Bible.

Christendom’s leadership thinks it’s ok for their members to kill their brothers, too. (Disobeying Christ.)
So as a whole, they don’t have God’s spirit, which not only provides spiritual enlightenment, but also engenders “love…. peace…. goodness.” - Galatians 5:22,23


But I know some have other reasons, too. I might have been similarly persuaded, reading about the miracles recorded.
But there exist invisible entities, that perform their own ‘miracles.’ For which science has no explanations.
Some posters on here can attest to that.



And these entities have played a role in the establishment of false religious & secular beliefs.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Leaving, ie., losing faith in, the church is not the same as leaving, ie., losing faith in, the Bible.

Is it?

I’ve known many who left the church, while strengthening their faith in the Bible… they became my brothers and sisters (JW’s).


I’m sure you’ll agree, that losing faith in Catholicism or another church, is not synonymous with losing faith in the Bible.

There are those who have, though; but that’s similar to “throwing the Baby out with the Bathwater.”

Now the following has a bearing on this topic, so please “bear” with me (pardon the pun)….
Who does the Bible say is the ruler of this world? (I think you know.)
Then we should expect that, if the Bible is from God, it would be a prime target of attack.

There are corrupted teachings within Christendom everywhere.
From influencing men to take God’s own Name out of the Bible (which began with the Jews), to “Christian” brothers fighting and killing each other (directly disobeying Christ’s command to ‘love one another’), to the God-dishonoring doctrine of Hellfire (which the O.M. [oldest manuscript] Bibles don’t even mention)….etc., etc….

….we see tampering & corruption on a scale way beyond any other religious texts!

Have a good day.
OK.
I feel sure that Geza Vermes had lost faith in the gospels, for sure.
His book describes how The gospels changed Jesus from a man to a lord and on to a God.

I myself do like much of Mark's gospel but with additions and fiddlings removed. I do like many of the anecdotes and accounts from Matthew and Luke, but G-John leaves the history far behind in favour of the young church's dogmas.

Paul shows this perfectly in his letters to the congregations where he repeatedly needs to remind all about Jesus's last supper, execution and miraculous resurrection but amazingly doesn't write ONE SENTENCE about anything else that Jesus said or did.

I asked you to choose any gospel account of what Jesus did later on during Palm Sunday....that was my offering of an alternative story. Did you decide on an account from the gospels?
 
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