Does the Bible teach incarnation?

[Walter Russell]

^^^ Reincarnation :/

Does it? I grew up in a Baptist church and have visited many other denominational churches and i've never heard it preached.
Emperor Justinian in 545 A.D. Made a law against the Christian teaching and Pope Vigilius was arrested for continuing to teach it.
These 2 Bible verses in paticular interest me. One from the new Testament and one from the Old.
1. John 9:2 "and the disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?"
2. Job 19:26 "and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God."
Job 19 talks in few more passages as well.
In Jobs case if your idea of God is the inwardly connecting to God, remember thats where God is according to Jesus. Job could be speaking of incarnation or rebirth and attaining enlightenment.

In the case of John 9, if a man is born blind, how could sin have caused it if not for reincarnation/rebirth? Jesus didn't respond to him like he said something crazy.

Thoughts?

 

[George-ananda]

I'm thinking the thread title meant 'reincarnation'.

The Bible can say somewhat contradictory things but all in all the Bible as it has been handed down to us does not give much reason for a belief in reincarnation but I have heard this was a controversial issue in the first couple centuries and the official position was formed without reincarnation. I personally do believe in reincarnation.

 

[Walter Russell]

I'm thinking the thread title meant 'reincarnation'.

The Bible can say somewhat contradictory things but all in all the Bible as it has been handed down to us does not give much reason for a belief in reincarnation but I have heard this was a controversial issue in the first couple centuries and the official position was formed without reincarnation. I personally do believe in reincarnation.

yes....lol, I meant "re"incarnation...

 

[Katzpur]

^^^ Reincarnation :/

Does it? I grew up in a Baptist church and have visited many other denominational churches and i've never heard it preached.
Emperor Justinian in 545 A.D. Made a law against the Christian teaching and Pope Vigilius was arrested for continuing to teach it.
These 2 Bible verses in paticular interest me. One from the new Testament and one from the Old.
1. John 9:2 "and the disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?"
2. Job 19:26 "and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God."
Job 19 talks in few more passages as well.
In Jobs case if your idea of God is the inwardly connecting to God, remember thats where God is according to Jesus. Job could be speaking of incarnation or rebirth and attaining enlightenment.

In the case of John 9, if a man is born blind, how could sin have caused it if not for reincarnation/rebirth? Jesus didn't respond to him like he said something crazy.

Thoughts?

Well, Mormons believe that we all lived in God's presence prior to coming to earth. We existed as spirit beings and had no physical bodies, but we were cognizant entities nevertheless. When we were born, our spirit entered into a physical body. When we die, our spirit will leave our body, but when we are resurrected, our spirit will again enter our body, giving it new life. Our body will be immortal this time around, though. It will be perfect and no longer subject to death, deformity, injury or disease. We definitely don't consider any of this process to be reincarnation, though.

With respect to John 9:2, you're very observant in picking up on the fact that Jesus didn't respond by saying, "What? You're crazy! How could someone be punished for something he did before he was born. People don't even exist before they're born." The reason He didn't even find the question to be odd was that the people He was talking to already knew of the doctrine of their Pre-mortal existence. It was a given, and Jesus responded to the question knowing that.

As for Job 19:26, I think that any Christian who believes in a physical resurrection (which I'm pretty sure would include the Baptists) would see this as meaning that with the resurrection comes a newly perfected body. If God can create a body from dust in the first place, surely He would be able to recreate that same body once it had been destroyed by worms, etc.

What most Christians don't realize is that there is a lot that the Bible is simply silent on. The Bible was not magically created in its present form, but underwent countless revisions over the centuries. Some books in today's Bible were not considered authoritative or inspired back in the 3rd or 4th centuries. Other books that were considered "God-breathed" in the earliest days of Christianity are no longer included in our Bibles today. If you were to research what the earliest Christians (i.e. Jesus' contemporaries) believed, you would find that many of the doctrines they believed (among them the doctrine of the Pre-existence) were lost from the Christian Church in the centuries that followed Christ's death. Remember, John tells us that Jesus said and did so many things during His ministry that were not recorded that they would fill all of the books that have ever been written. Don't just assume that everything that is "true" is found in the Bible.

 

[David1967]

Well, Mormons believe that we all lived in God's presence prior to coming to earth. We existed as spirit beings and had no physical bodies, but we were cognizant entities nevertheless. When we were born, our spirit entered into a physical body. When we die, our spirit will leave our body, but when we are resurrected, our spirit will again enter our body, giving it new life. Our body will be immortal this time around, though. It will be perfect and no longer subject to death, deformity, injury or disease. We definitely don't consider any of this process to be reincarnation, though.

With respect to John 9:2, you're very observant in picking up on the fact that Jesus didn't respond by saying, "What? You're crazy! How could someone be punished for something he did before he was born. People don't even exist before they're born." The reason He didn't even find the question to be odd was that the people He was talking to already knew of the doctrine of their Pre-mortal existence. It was a given, and Jesus responded to the question knowing that.

As for Job 19:26, I think that any Christian who believes in a physical resurrection (which I'm pretty sure would include the Baptists) would see this as meaning that with the resurrection comes a newly perfected body. If God can create a body from dust in the first place, surely He would be able to recreate that same body once it had been destroyed by worms, etc.

What most Christians don't realize is that there is a lot that the Bible is simply silent on. The Bible was not magically created in its present form, but underwent countless revisions over the centuries. Some books in today's Bible were not considered authoritative or inspired back in the 3rd or 4th centuries. Other books that were considered "God-breathed" in the earliest days of Christianity are no longer included in our Bibles today. If you were to research what the earliest Christians (i.e. Jesus' contemporaries) believed, you would find that many of the doctrines they believed (among them the doctrine of the Pre-existence) were lost from the Christian Church in the centuries that followed Christ's death. Remember, John tells us that Jesus said and did so many things during His ministry that were not recorded that they would fill all of the books that have ever been written. Don't just assume that everything that is "true" is found in the Bible.

Hello Katz. It's very interesting to me that Mormons believe that we existed before our birth as spirit beings. That Is a neat concept. I have a question for you regarding this. Did we have a choice in whether or not we would leave the presence of God to be born in this world? And why? Thank you.

 

[Walter Russell]

Well, Mormons believe that we all lived in God's presence prior to coming to earth. We existed as spirit beings and had no physical bodies, but we were cognizant entities nevertheless. When we were born, our spirit entered into a physical body. When we die, our spirit will leave our body, but when we are resurrected, our spirit will again enter our body, giving it new life. Our body will be immortal this time around, though. It will be perfect and no longer subject to death, deformity, injury or disease. We definitely don't consider any of this process to be reincarnation, though.

With respect to John 9:2, you're very observant in picking up on the fact that Jesus didn't respond by saying, "What? You're crazy! How could someone be punished for something he did before he was born. People don't even exist before they're born." The reason He didn't even find the question to be odd was that the people He was talking to already knew of the doctrine of their Pre-mortal existence. It was a given, and Jesus responded to the question knowing that.

As for Job 19:26, I think that any Christian who believes in a physical resurrection (which I'm pretty sure would include the Baptists) would see this as meaning that with the resurrection comes a newly perfected body. If God can create a body from dust in the first place, surely He would be able to recreate that same body once it had been destroyed by worms, etc.

What most Christians don't realize is that there is a lot that the Bible is simply silent on. The Bible was not magically created in its present form, but underwent countless revisions over the centuries. Some books in today's Bible were not considered authoritative or inspired back in the 3rd or 4th centuries. Other books that were considered "God-breathed" in the earliest days of Christianity are no longer included in our Bibles today. If you were to research what the earliest Christians (i.e. Jesus' contemporaries) believed, you would find that many of the doctrines they believed (among them the doctrine of the Pre-existence) were lost from the Christian Church in the centuries that followed Christ's death. Remember, John tells us that Jesus said and did so many things during His ministry that were not recorded that they would fill all of the books that have ever been written. Don't just assume that everything that is "true" is found in the Bible.

Thanks for the reply.
With what you said in ref to John 9, wouldn't that mean the disciples were refering to sin while in spiritual form? The goes along way in coffering sin is an act of the flesh and not of the spirit. aka Esau and Jacob.
I've noticed alot of people don't realize that the old testament Jews were looking forward to a earthly kingdom. The kingdom of heaven is a nee testament concept, which leads me to believe Job was refering to a rebirth or reincarnation.

 

[Walter Russell]

Hello Katz. It's very interesting to me that Mormons believe that we existed before our birth as spirit beings. That Is a neat concept. I have a question for you regarding this. Did we have a choice in whether or not we would leave the presence of God to be born in this world? And why? Thank you.

I often wonder if the story of the prodigal son is the story of us leaving the presence of God to experience the material world.

 

[David1967]

I often wonder if the story of the prodigal son is the story of us leaving the presence of God to experience the material world.

So many questions. ...so fun and fulfilling to explore.

 

[Katzpur]

Hello Katz. It's very interesting to me that Mormons believe that we existed before our birth as spirit beings. That Is a neat concept. I have a question for you regarding this. Did we have a choice in whether or not we would leave the presence of God to be born in this world? And why? Thank you.

Yes, we believe we did have a choice. We believe that we willingly left God's presence because we wanted the opportunity to experience mortality. We understood that this was essential to our future growth and development. If a person is never faced with choices between good and evil, they are not able to progress, and we believe our progression was extremely important to God. We believe that God's work and His glory were to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. That involves more than just "saving" us from eternal torment. (That's really just it "in a nutshell," so to speak. I could elaborate, but I don't want to hijack the thread just to get on my soapbox.)

 

[Katzpur]

Thanks for the reply.
With what you said in ref to John 9, wouldn't that mean the disciples were refering to sin while in spiritual form?

Yes, that is what it would mean.

The goes along way in coffering sin is an act of the flesh and not of the spirit. aka Esau and Jacob.

Well, the Bible does say that as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he, and Jesus said that if a man lusts after a woman, he has committed adultery with her in his heart. To me these verses imply that we can sin even without having a physical body. Just stop and think about all of the sins you don't need a body to commit -- pride, jealousy, dishonesty, etc.

I've noticed alot of people don't realize that the old testament Jews were looking forward to a earthly kingdom. The kingdom of heaven is a nee testament concept, which leads me to believe Job was refering to a rebirth or reincarnation.

I'm not quite sure I'm following you. Could you try rephrasing that? Also, maybe you could explain what you mean by "re-incarnation" as opposed to just "incarnation," so we can see if we're on the same page here.

 

[Katzpur]

I often wonder if the story of the prodigal son is the story of us leaving the presence of God to experience the material world.

I believe it absolutely is.

 

[Deeje]

Where will I find it stated in Genesis that Adam was pre-existing as a spirit in heaven before God created him?

Where will I find any reference to spirit beings wanting to experience mortality in order to "progress" in their "future growth and development"? (In the Bible, that is)

Do spirit beings have no choice to experience "good and evil" apart from becoming humans? Does that mean that satan wasn't a spirit being who wanted to live his evil dream of becoming a god to the humans he saw God create...but that he was just another human needing to experience mortality? Where did he come from? Who gave birth to him?

 

[Katzpur]

Where will I find it stated in Genesis that Adam was pre-existing as a spirit in heaven before God created him?

Where will I find any reference to spirit beings wanting to experience mortality in order to "progress" in their "future growth and development"? (In the Bible, that is)

Do spirit beings have no choice to experience "good and evil" apart from becoming humans? Does that mean that satan wasn't a spirit being who wanted to live his evil dream of becoming a god to the humans he saw God create...but that he was just another human needing to experience mortality? Where did he come from? Who gave birth to him?

No comment. If Walter Russell or David1967 wants to ask me questions, I'd be more than happy to answer them. I have learned not to waste my time talking to you (or to JayJayDee, for that matter .)

 

[Deeje]

No comment. If Walter Russell or David1967 wants to ask me questions, I'd be more than happy to answer them. I have learned not to waste my time talking to you (or to JayJayDee, for that matter .)

Why is it a waste of time asking for Biblical proof for what you believe?

Would you like to answer those questions for the benefit of those who might be wondering?

If there is nothing in the Bible to back up what you say, then one has to ask where these notions come from?

This is a Biblical debate forum after all. So lets get out the Bible and see for ourselves if we existed as spirits before we were born.....please provide the chapter and verse..

 

[Deeje]

^^^ Reincarnation :/

Does it?

No way! The Bible does not even teach that we have an immortal soul, let alone one that floats around inhabiting different bodies forever.

These 2 Bible verses in paticular interest me. One from the new Testament and one from the Old.
1. John 9:2 "and the disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?"

In this scripture, Jesus’ words showed that neither the man nor his parents were responsible for his congenital blindness. So Jesus gave no support to the idea that the man was being punished for sins committed in a previous life. True, Jesus knew that all humans inherit sin. But they inherit the sin of Adam, not sins they committed before they were born.

Because of Adam’s sin, all humans are born physically imperfect, subject to sickness and death. (Job 14:4; Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12; 9:11) In fact, that was a situation that Jesus had been sent to remedy. John the Baptizer said that Jesus was “the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29)

Notice, too, that Jesus did not say that God had deliberately caused the man to be born blind so that Jesus could come along and heal him some day. What a cruel, cynical thing that would have been! Would that have brought praise to God? Hardly. Rather, the miraculous cure of the blind man served to ‘make manifest the works of God.’ Like the many other cures Jesus performed, it reflected God’s sincere love for suffering mankind and confirmed the trustworthiness of His promise to bring an end to all human sickness and suffering in His due time. (Isaiah 33:24)

2. Job 19:26 "and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God."
Job 19 talks in few more passages as well.
In Jobs case if your idea of God is the inwardly connecting to God, remember thats where God is according to Jesus. Job could be speaking of incarnation or rebirth and attaining enlightenment.

Actually Job is talking about the resurrection, not reincarnation.

Job 14:13-15:
“If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed!
If only you would set me a time and then remember me!
14 If someone dies, will they live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait for my renewal to come.
15 You will call and I will answer you; you will long for the creature your hands have made." (NIV)

This is what Jesus taught as a Jewish belief. They had no teaching of an immoral soul but one where, upon death a person sleeps in an unconscious state until God raises them from the dead. (Eccl 9:5, 10) A "renewal" of his life in the flesh is what Job was going to wait for.

When Jesus' friend Lazarus died, Jesus said he was "sleeping". (John 11:11-14) His sister said she believed in the resurrection. (John 11:21-24)
Jesus said he would call all the dead from their graves, not from heaven. (John 5:28, 29) Lazarus was not in heaven, but sleeping in death.

In the case of John 9, if a man is born blind, how could sin have caused it if not for reincarnation/rebirth? Jesus didn't respond to him like he said something crazy.

Jesus never responded to anyone as if they were crazy....he gently corrected them, teaching them the truth of God's word. He said straight away..."neither this man nor his parents sinned" so that he was born blind. If you take the scriptures at face value and do not read into them things they do not teach, you will do well. Scripture interprets scripture. So what does the rest of scripture teach about the human soul? You may be surprised.

 

[David1967]

Yes, we believe we did have a choice. We believe that we willingly left God's presence because we wanted the opportunity to experience mortality. We understood that this was essential to our future growth and development. If a person is never faced with choices between good and evil, they are not able to progress, and we believe our progression was extremely important to God. We believe that God's work and His glory were to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. That involves more than just "saving" us from eternal torment. (That's really just it "in a nutshell," so to speak. I could elaborate, but I don't want to hijack the thread just to get on my soapbox.)

Thank you Katz. I want to know more about this . I like this concept and have often wondered about this very thing. I didn't however know it was part of Mormon theology.

 

[Katzpur]

Would you like to answer those questions for the benefit of those who might be wondering?

Anyone who might be wondering is free to ask me.

 

[David1967]

No way! The Bible does not even teach that we have an immortal soul, let alone one that floats around inhabiting different bodies forever.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I often wonder if the story of the prodigal son is the story of us leaving the presence of God to experience the material world.

Mad props. This is the most interesting spin on this parable I've ever heard.

 

[Katzpur]

Thank you Katz. I want to know more about this. I like this concept and have often wondered about this very thing. I didn't however know it was part of Mormon theology.

David, I hope you don't see this as a cop-out, but I'm going to just copy and paste something I wrote up several years back for a thread in the LDS DIR. This was just part of a larger piece I wrote on the LDS understanding of God's Plan of Salvation for His children (i.e. all of mankind). I numbered the statements so that if people had questions, they could specifically reference the item they wanted clarification on.

A1. God the Eternal Father is a glorified, immortal being of flesh and bone. While He has the appearance of a man, His body is perfect and incorruptible.

A2. Co-eternal with God was a form of highly refined matter that has been described as "the light of truth." Latter-day Saint scriptures refer to it as "Intelligences." It is neither created nor made.

A3. God took this intelligent matter and from it created the spirits of all who would someday dwell on this earth and of some who would not. A spirit is a conscious entity, visible to God, but comprised of such highly refined matter that human eyes cannot see it.

A4. These spirit creations were known to God as His spirit sons and daughters. They knew Him as their Father.

A5. Among them were two who stood out as incomprehensibly superior to the others. Like their Father, they were perfect in every respect. God the Father called His firstborn spirit son "Jehovah." He would come to be known to billions as Jesus Christ. His other perfect son would be known as the Holy Ghost. Together these three constituted "the Godhead," three divine beings who were one in will, purpose, mind and heart.

A6. God was the archetypal man, the Man of Holiness. He was the perfect role model and all of His spirit children looked to Him with deep reverence and respect. It was their desire to be like Him in every way.

A7. God called a heavenly council and presented a plan to His spirit children. All were present, and shouted for joy upon hearing the announcement.

A8. The plan became known as "The Plan of Salvation." God would create a world for them apart from their heavenly home. All who wished to participate would be given the opportunity to come to Earth, to be born to earthly parents and to obtain a mortal body. They would have no memory of their pre-mortal existence.

A9. As part of their mortality, they would be tried and tested. Prophets would be sent to guide them, but they would have to learn to walk in faith and to distinguish between good and evil. This knowledge was essential in order for them to someday become like their Father in Heaven.

A10. There was, however, one caveat. After their time on Earth was finished, they could return to His presence only if they were without sin. He would not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. Sin would be seen as a debt that could only be forgiven if paid in full by someone who owed no debt Himself.

A11. Jehovah, our elder Brother, stepped forward and said, "Here I am. Send me." With a love so absolute we could not comprehend it, He offered to take upon Himself the guilt we would incur during our mortality and to pay the price required by the Father for our forgiveness. The price would be His own blood. All of the glory, He insisted, would be the Father's. He wanted nothing but the privilege of helping His Father to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind.

A12. Our salvation would be contingent upon our recognizing Him as our Savior and doing our best to keep His commandments, repenting as necessary, because we would inevitably sin. Each of us would be given the freedom to choose for ourselves.

A13. Another of God's spirit sons stepped forward at this point. His name was Lucifer. Once known as the "Son of the Morning," he was full of animosity towards his brother, Jehovah and toward their Father. He offered an alternate plan. His plan took away our agency or the right to choose for ourselves. We would each obtain a mortal body, but the choice to obey or to disobey, and the privilege of learning to discern between good and evil would be taken away from us. Having lived perfect lives, but not by choice, we would all return to God's presence. The glory would be forever his, not his Father's.

A14. The Father chose Jehovah to be "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Lucifer, proud and rebellious, turned against his Father and vowed to turn as many of his fellow spirit siblings as possible against Him, too.

A15. A "War in Heaven" ensued. All of God's spirit children chose sides. Some fought with Lucifer for the right to participate in the plan as he had suggested. Others fought on the side of Jehovah, led by the archangel, Michael.

A16. In the end, Michael and his angels (i.e. all of us who would someday be born) defeated Lucifer and his angels (the remaining third of the host of heaven). Because of their willful rebellion against God, Lucifer and those who had sided with him were cast out of Heaven. They would never again have the privilege of being known as God's children. They would never receive mortal bodies. And in the end, they would be cast into Outer Darkness forever.

A17. The rest of us (i.e. every human being who ever has been born or will be born) rejoiced, knowing that the Plan was about to commence. Every one of us chose to come to Earth. There were no exceptions.

A18. Under the direction of His Father, and aided by the archangel, Michael, Jehovah created our Earth and the universe in which we live.

This entire sequence of events took place before "the beginning," since the Bible tells us only what happened with the creation as "the beginning." We have learned these things through modern revelation to living prophets. It is our belief that they were once understood and believed by all Christians, but were lost over time, following the deaths of Christ's apostles. The Bible alludes to a few of these points, but discusses none of them in any depth. I've always found it interesting to learn of early non-biblical Christian documents that teach much the same things as I've just explained. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.