• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Does wisdom exist?

Spiderman

Veteran Member
The last thing RF needs is another thread like this. So, here it goes:. :D

wis·dom
/ˈwizdəm/
noun
  1. the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment; the quality of being wise.
Who is the final and infallible Authority who decides what is truly wise? Many people in Nazi Germany probably would have thought it was Hitler. People in North Korea, probably think it is Kim Jong Un.

Some buddhists will probably say it is Buddha. Hindus will have something different to say. Christians, Jews, and Muslims will have different opinions on this. God only knows what atheists would decide.

So, perhaps they are all wrong and wisdom doesn't even exist?:shrug:

Everything could be a total delusion, illusion, or hallucination.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Without starting a new thread, we don't actually know what love and romance is either (outside of personal opinions and preferences).

I question whether I even exist (and no, I'm not on drugs, save for the ones that are prescribed ;) ). It could be that humans don't exist either. Almost everything we believe about the world around us could all just be existing in our imagination.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Yes, wisdom exists as 'having experience, knowledge, and good judgment,' in very practical terms of real life as it is. Those that have wisedom in the real preactical sense do not claim it.

Unfortunately claims of esoteric wisdom are as common as fleas on a feral dog, and rare as hens teeth.
 
Last edited:

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Wisdom is subject to change. When I was a teenager I thought I was wise, and now I find it unbelievably stupid that I could even remotely feel that way at that time.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Wisdom is subject to change. When I was a teenager I thought I was wise, and now I find it unbelievably stupid that I could even remotely feel that way at that time.

By what line of reasoning do your changing opinions of your own wisdom lead you to believe that wisdom itself is subject to change?
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
By what line of reasoning do your changing opinions of your own wisdom lead you to believe that wisdom itself is subject to change?
My perception and idea of what is wise changed dramatically. If wisdom does indeed exist, then I doubt it is subject to change.

My understanding of it certainly changed however. Also, wisdom may not even exist outside of our own ideas and perceptions. If that is the only place it exists is in our mind, then indeed it is subject to change.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
The last thing RF needs is another thread like this. So, here it goes:. :D

wis·dom
/ˈwizdəm/
noun
  1. the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment; the quality of being wise.
Who is the final and infallible Authority who decides what is truly wise? Many people in Nazi Germany probably would have thought it was Hitler. People in North Korea, probably think it is Kim Jong Un.

Some buddhists will probably say it is Buddha. Hindus will have something different to say. Christians, Jews, and Muslims will have different opinions on this. God only knows what atheists would decide.

So, perhaps they are all wrong and wisdom doesn't even exist?:shrug:

Everything could be a total delusion, illusion, or hallucination.
Wisdom is not up to human opinion. Wisdom certainly exists and is observable in nature. So the Creator is the One who is wise.

In the book the wisdom of Solomon, we see that the first point of wisdom is knowing to whom it belongs and who can give it. Which makes sense. If Wisdom comes from God then surely knowing God can put you on the inside track of gaining more wisdom.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
The last thing RF needs is another thread like this. So, here it goes:. :D

wis·dom
/ˈwizdəm/
noun
  1. the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment; the quality of being wise.
Who is the final and infallible Authority who decides what is truly wise? Many people in Nazi Germany probably would have thought it was Hitler. People in North Korea, probably think it is Kim Jong Un.

Some buddhists will probably say it is Buddha. Hindus will have something different to say. Christians, Jews, and Muslims will have different opinions on this. God only knows what atheists would decide.

So, perhaps they are all wrong and wisdom doesn't even exist?:shrug:

Everything could be a total delusion, illusion, or hallucination.


This is a question in part of epistemology. How do we know what we know.

I would say wisdom does exist in various ways but ultimately the most important kind is a gift of God. Additionally in Thessalonians 'the love of truth' itself is something to be received and hence a gift.

One might take 'a lead of faith' toward the light (as the late RC Sproul might say), but they still have to want to do it and need to 'love the light' enough to want to
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
This is a question in part of epistemology. How do we know what we know.

I would say wisdom does exist in various ways but ultimately the most important kind is a gift of God. Additionally in Thessalonians 'the love of truth' itself is something to be received and hence a gift.

One might take 'a lead of faith' toward the light (as the late RC Sproul might say), but they still have to want to do it and need to 'love the light' enough to want to
That's another point of gaining wisdom in book of proverbs you must love wisdom.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
wis·dom
  1. the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment; the quality of being wise.

I have a more practical definition of wisdom. If intelligence is knowing how to achieve goals (problem solving), wisdom is knowing what goals to pursue to optimize the life experience. One form of intelligence is knowing how to accumulate wealth, for example. Wisdom is understanding how that pursuit can become excessive and cause unhappiness - that leisure time and release from excessive desire bring more happiness than the second million.

What else can wisdom possibly be?

Who is the final and infallible Authority who decides what is truly wise?

In our own lives, each of us is that authority, albeit not infallible, and often poorly executed. Did your choices bring you happiness, or at least as much happiness can be expected given circumstances not under your control? Then they were probably relatively wise. Did they lead you to a life full of regret? Then probably not.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
I have a more practical definition of wisdom. If intelligence is knowing how to achieve goals (problem solving), wisdom is knowing what goals to pursue to optimize the life experience. One form of intelligence is knowing how to accumulate wealth, for example. Wisdom is understanding how that pursuit can become excessive and cause unhappiness - that leisure time and release from excessive desire bring more happiness than the second million.

What else can wisdom possibly be?



In our own lives, each of us is that authority, albeit not infallible, and often poorly executed. Did your choices bring you happiness, or at least as much happiness can be expected given circumstances not under your control? Then they were probably relatively wise. Did they lead you to a life full of regret? Then probably not.
Some people kill people and that makes them happier than anything else. Some of these people do not get caught, and killing others really enhances their enjoyment and contentment. Could that be considered wisdom if nothing makes them happier?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Some people kill people and that makes them happier than anything else. Some of these people do not get caught, and killing others really enhances their enjoyment and contentment. Could that be considered wisdom if nothing makes them happier?

Just to clarify. To your mind, the wisest course of action is the one that leads to the most happiness?
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
The last thing RF needs is another thread like this. So, here it goes:. :D

wis·dom
/ˈwizdəm/
noun
  1. the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment; the quality of being wise.
Who is the final and infallible Authority who decides what is truly wise? Many people in Nazi Germany probably would have thought it was Hitler. People in North Korea, probably think it is Kim Jong Un.

Some buddhists will probably say it is Buddha. Hindus will have something different to say. Christians, Jews, and Muslims will have different opinions on this. God only knows what atheists would decide.

So, perhaps they are all wrong and wisdom doesn't even exist?:shrug:

Everything could be a total delusion, illusion, or hallucination.

Wisdom exists everywhere except for in the white house.
 

Just_Curious

Curious about religion
I’ve always wanted to be very very wize. When I was little me dad used to tell me stories of Chinese wize men Like Buddha or fu Manchu. He said they were wize and that’s what made they’re eyes kind of slanted.
How can I get some wisdom? What does it depend on?
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Without starting a new thread, we don't actually know what love and romance is either (outside of personal opinions and preferences).

I question whether I even exist (and no, I'm not on drugs, save for the ones that are prescribed ;) ). It could be that humans don't exist either. Almost everything we believe about the world around us could all just be existing in our imagination.

At least one of the following statements is very likely to be true:

1. Human civilization or a comparable civilization is unlikely to reach a level of technological maturity capable of producing simulated realities or such simulations are physically impossible to construct.
2. A comparable civilization reaching aforementioned technological status will likely not produce a significant number of simulated realities (one that might push the probable existence of digital entities beyond the probable number of "real" entities in a Universe) for any of a number of reasons, such as diversion of computational processing power for other tasks, ethical considerations of holding entities captive in simulated realities, etc.[
3. Any entities with our general set of experiences are almost certainly living in a simulation.
4. We are living in a reality in which posthumans have not developed yet and we are actually living in reality
"Bostrom's argument rests on the premise that given sufficiently advanced technology, it is possible to represent the populated surface of the Earth without recourse to digital physics; that the qualia experienced by a simulated consciousness are comparable or equivalent to those of a naturally occurring human consciousness, and that one or more levels of simulation within simulations would be feasible given only a modest expenditure of computational resources in the real world."

ARE YOU LIVING IN A COMPUTER SIMULATION?

BY NICK BOSTROM

Faculty of Philosophy, Oxford University

Published in Philosophical Quarterly (2003) Vol. 53, No. 211, pp. 243-255.

Are You Living in a Simulation?


Real/Simulated Universe?!

Theoritical physicist Dr. S. James Gates Jr. claims that a certain string theory, super-symmetrical equations describing the nature and reality of our universe, contains embedded computer codes; these codes have digital data in the form of 0's and 1's identical to what makes web browsers function, and they're error-correct codes.

See here:


Some physicists have proposed a method for testing if we are in a numerical simulated cubic space-time lattice Matrix or simulated universe with an underlying grid.
[1210.1847] Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation

Based on the assumption that there'd be finite computational resources, a simulated universe would be performed by dividing up the space-time continuum into individually separate and distinctive points. Analogous to mini-simulations that lattice-gauge theorists conduct to construct nuclei based on Quantum Chromodynamics, observable effects of a grid-like space-time have been studied from these computer simulations which use a 3-D grid to model how elementary particles move and collide with each other. Anomalies found in these simulations suggest that if we are in a simulation universe with an underlying grid, then there'd be various amounts of high energy cosmic rays coming at us from each direction; but if space is continuous, then there'd be high energy cosmic rays coming at us equally from every direction.

High Energy Physics - Phenomenology
Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation

Silas R. Beane, Zohreh Davoudi, Martin J. Savage
(Submitted on 4 Oct 2012 (v1), last revised 9 Nov 2012 (this version, v2))
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
First, significantly OFF TOPIC!

At least one of the following statements is very likely to be true:

1. Human civilization or a comparable civilization is unlikely to reach a level of technological maturity capable of producing simulated realities or such simulations are physically impossible to construct.
2. A comparable civilization reaching aforementioned technological status will likely not produce a significant number of simulated realities (one that might push the probable existence of digital entities beyond the probable number of "real" entities in a Universe) for any of a number of reasons, such as diversion of computational processing power for other tasks, ethical considerations of holding entities captive in simulated realities, etc.[
3. Any entities with our general set of experiences are almost certainly living in a simulation.
4. We are living in a reality in which posthumans have not developed yet and we are actually living in reality
"Bostrom's argument rests on the premise that given sufficiently advanced technology, it is possible to represent the populated surface of the Earth without recourse to digital physics; that the qualia experienced by a simulated consciousness are comparable or equivalent to those of a naturally occurring human consciousness, and that one or more levels of simulation within simulations would be feasible given only a modest expenditure of computational resources in the real world."

ARE YOU LIVING IN A COMPUTER SIMULATION?

BY NICK BOSTROM

Faculty of Philosophy, Oxford University

Published in Philosophical Quarterly (2003) Vol. 53, No. 211, pp. 243-255.

Are You Living in a Simulation?


Real/Simulated Universe?!

Theoritical physicist Dr. S. James Gates Jr. claims that a certain string theory, super-symmetrical equations describing the nature and reality of our universe, contains embedded computer codes; these codes have digital data in the form of 0's and 1's identical to what makes web browsers function, and they're error-correct codes.

See here:


Some physicists have proposed a method for testing if we are in a numerical simulated cubic space-time lattice Matrix or simulated universe with an underlying grid.
[1210.1847] Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation

Based on the assumption that there'd be finite computational resources, a simulated universe would be performed by dividing up the space-time continuum into individually separate and distinctive points. Analogous to mini-simulations that lattice-gauge theorists conduct to construct nuclei based on Quantum Chromodynamics, observable effects of a grid-like space-time have been studied from these computer simulations which use a 3-D grid to model how elementary particles move and collide with each other. Anomalies found in these simulations suggest that if we are in a simulation universe with an underlying grid, then there'd be various amounts of high energy cosmic rays coming at us from each direction; but if space is continuous, then there'd be high energy cosmic rays coming at us equally from every direction.

High Energy Physics - Phenomenology
Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation

Silas R. Beane, Zohreh Davoudi, Martin J. Savage
(Submitted on 4 Oct 2012 (v1), last revised 9 Nov 2012 (this version, v2))

A universe that may be computer modeled does not necessarily reflect our very natural universe with no objective verifiable evidence that our universe is a computer simulation. I do not agree with the assumptions of those in the references.
 
Last edited:

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
First, significantly OFF TOPIC!

A universe that may be computer modeled does not necessarily reflect our very natural universe with no objective verifiable evidence that our universe is a computer simulation. I do not agree with the assumptions of those in the references.

Swedish philosopher Nick Bostrom makes a compelling logically sound argument why there is a significant probability we are living in a simulated universe.

Lead designer and engineer of SpaceX, Elon Musk states there is a one in a billion chance we are living in a base reality.

In 40 years, Musk explained, we've gone from Pong to massively multiplayer online games with millions of simultaneous players, games with photorealistic graphics, and stand now on the cusp of a new wave of virtual and augmented reality experiences.

"If you assume any rate of improvement at all then games will become indistinguishable from reality," Musk said. "Even if that rate of advancement drops by a thousand from what it is now, let's just imagine it's 10,000 years in the future, which is nothing on the evolutionary scale." Given that we're on that trajectory and that these games are increasingly playable on any device, Musk said, the odds that we are living our lives in base reality — that is, "real" reality — is one in billions.

Theoretical Physicist Brian Green has the following ideas about the possibility we are living in a simulated reality:

" imo, there is certainly no new convincing evidence that leads us to definitively conclude that we're in a simulation. Instead, there are interesting theoretical arguments which make that possibility, at least, scientifically plausible.

But being plausible, being possible is a far cry from being definite. And with something as extraordinarily far out and crazy-sounding as "we're living in a simulation", to paraphrase Carl Sagan, we'll need some extraordinary, monumental evidence to really believe it. And I would say we don't have anywhere near that evidence today.

Some of the evidence would be circumstantial. You know, if we can actually build the kinds of simulations that would be necessary for the conclusions to hold, simulations in which within the simulations we, as creators of the simulation, can see that there are sentient, cognizant entities within the simulation, for whom that simulation seems to be as real to them as the reality that we know about is real to us. That would be an interesting piece of circumstantial evidence if we could do that, or if any alien being could do that.

If we get visited in the future, and they show us that they're able to do that, then that would also be circumstantial evidence that maybe we are merely another example of what we're witnessing in the simulation.

People have come up with other, you know, more exotic ideas, looking for glitches in reality, sort of like in The Matrix when the black cat walks by twice. Remember that scene with Neo? So, looking for mistakes. I don't buy that at all because a very clever error-correcting simulation could simply wipe clean the memory of any such glitch after correcting it. But for me personally, if we could actually see the kinds of simulations that would be required, if we could build them, then I'd start to really take the idea more seriously.

And we don't even know what consciousness is, right? We have no idea whether consciousness can be simulated in any kind of computer, whether classical or quantum. So those-, these are just basic issues that would be, we'd need to have an answer before we would ever be able to claim -- and we need a positive answer before we could ever claim, you know -- it's more than likely that we're in a simulation.

And believe me, you know, again, if we are in a simulation, who's to say that the entities in a simulation are good simulators, good builders of simulations? And so, it's not just for the conclusion to be true. It doesn't require that we be able to build those simulations. For us, to believe that it's possible, it would certainly be an enormous step forward if we were able to build something like that."

Does Musk have access to simulations we don't? Maybe. But until he shows us what he's got, many will continue believing that the world is real and that some Simsgamer isn't controlling all of this.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Swedish philosopher Nick Bostrom makes a compelling logically sound argument why there is a significant probability we are living in a simulated universe.

Lead designer and engineer of SpaceX, Elon Musk states there is a one in a billion chance we are living in a base reality.

In 40 years, Musk explained, we've gone from Pong to massively multiplayer online games with millions of simultaneous players, games with photorealistic graphics, and stand now on the cusp of a new wave of virtual and augmented reality experiences.

"If you assume any rate of improvement at all then games will become indistinguishable from reality," Musk said. "Even if that rate of advancement drops by a thousand from what it is now, let's just imagine it's 10,000 years in the future, which is nothing on the evolutionary scale." Given that we're on that trajectory and that these games are increasingly playable on any device, Musk said, the odds that we are living our lives in base reality — that is, "real" reality — is one in billions.

Theoretical Physicist Brian Green has the following ideas about the possibility we are living in a simulated reality:

" imo, there is certainly no new convincing evidence that leads us to definitively conclude that we're in a simulation. Instead, there are interesting theoretical arguments which make that possibility, at least, scientifically plausible.

But being plausible, being possible is a far cry from being definite. And with something as extraordinarily far out and crazy-sounding as "we're living in a simulation", to paraphrase Carl Sagan, we'll need some extraordinary, monumental evidence to really believe it. And I would say we don't have anywhere near that evidence today.

Some of the evidence would be circumstantial. You know, if we can actually build the kinds of simulations that would be necessary for the conclusions to hold, simulations in which within the simulations we, as creators of the simulation, can see that there are sentient, cognizant entities within the simulation, for whom that simulation seems to be as real to them as the reality that we know about is real to us. That would be an interesting piece of circumstantial evidence if we could do that, or if any alien being could do that.

If we get visited in the future, and they show us that they're able to do that, then that would also be circumstantial evidence that maybe we are merely another example of what we're witnessing in the simulation.

People have come up with other, you know, more exotic ideas, looking for glitches in reality, sort of like in The Matrix when the black cat walks by twice. Remember that scene with Neo? So, looking for mistakes. I don't buy that at all because a very clever error-correcting simulation could simply wipe clean the memory of any such glitch after correcting it. But for me personally, if we could actually see the kinds of simulations that would be required, if we could build them, then I'd start to really take the idea more seriously.

And we don't even know what consciousness is, right? We have no idea whether consciousness can be simulated in any kind of computer, whether classical or quantum. So those-, these are just basic issues that would be, we'd need to have an answer before we would ever be able to claim -- and we need a positive answer before we could ever claim, you know -- it's more than likely that we're in a simulation.

And believe me, you know, again, if we are in a simulation, who's to say that the entities in a simulation are good simulators, good builders of simulations? And so, it's not just for the conclusion to be true. It doesn't require that we be able to build those simulations. For us, to believe that it's possible, it would certainly be an enormous step forward if we were able to build something like that."

Does Musk have access to simulations we don't? Maybe. But until he shows us what he's got, many will continue believing that the world is real and that some Simsgamer isn't controlling all of this.

I fundamentally reject the assumptions that would conclude by probability that our physical existence is a computer simulation. The problem is that probability theory requires assumptions, which are alien to the Natural nature of our physical existence, which requires no such assumptions.

Why are you rudely taking this thread OFF TOPIC, which is not your thread, and not starting your own thread.
 
Top