Draw Muhammad day

[A Troubled Man]

People can try and change the rules, that's fine by me.

Why should they have to allow all of this in an Islamic country? Don't like their rules? Don't live there.

Contradict much? And, you're giving me a facepalm? LOL!

You're trying to make an entire religious group conform to your standards.

As opposed to you who wish to have higher standards than the rest of us.

Do you always have such an attitude with people who, for the most part, agree with you on this issue?

I see little agreement from others here about sharing equal rights, you included.

 

[beerisit]

I see little agreement from others here about sharing equal rights, you included.

Now you see I must disagree here, I think that both ssainhu and Badran are offering valid comment and not in anyway condoning the actions taken by "muslims" in this matter. There were many Americans who supported the IRA during the troubles and they were lunatics as well, or maybe we should shoot the Pope as payment for their atrocities. If you can't tell the good guys from the baddies then you really are part of the problem.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Now you see I must disagree here, I think that both ssainhu and Badran are offering valid comment and not in anyway condoning the actions taken by "muslims" in this matter. There were many Americans who supported the IRA during the troubles and they were lunatics as well, or maybe we should shoot the Pope as payment for their atrocities. If you can't tell the good guys from the baddies then you really are part of the problem.

I don't think that's really a fair comparison. Drawing Muhammad is not analogous to assassinating the Pope. An editorial cartoon depicting Muhammad would really be analogous to, well, an editorial cartoon depicting the Pope, which is something that happens frequently and is considered fair comment by practically everyone but Bill Donohue.

 

[A Troubled Man]

Now you see I must disagree here, I think that both ssainhu and Badran are offering valid comment and not in anyway condoning the actions taken by "muslims" in this matter.

I never said they were condoning those acts. In fact, I went so far as to explain that this issue really has nothing to do with drawing pictures or the ensuing violence and everything to do with one group demanding to have more rights than the other.

If you can't tell the good guys from the baddies then you really are part of the problem.

The good guys want everyone to have equal rights, the baddies do not.

Is that correct or do you have another version of good guys and baddies?

 

[Badran]

I think this is a matter of opinion. It is muslims who are the ones rioting and murdering others over this. Granted, its a minority of muslims, but its muslims who are doing it. So, targeting muslims is fine in my view, because muslims are the ones that have the problem with it.

Targeting Muslims is fine because you have a problem with a minority of them?

Are you sure about this?

I ask only because to be honest i kind of expected better than that.

The thing is that they may not be mis-aiming, you'd have to ask them. No doubt many are attacking all muslims, because they may hate muslims or just not know any better. But not all are doing this. Many people realize that its not all muslims who are resorting to violence, but the people who are resorting to violence are muslims. Maybe if we'd talk to them they'd tell us something like, "Im doing this because I want to tell those rioting murderers that I have the freedom to draw what I want." Assuming that all of them are targeting all muslims isn't fair either.

I haven't made that assumption. Two things:

1) I've already excluded the ones who intentionally want to hurt all Muslims out of hate and bigotry (since we already agreed they're idiots). I was talking now about those you tried to represent by the words in quotation marks.

2) The mis-aiming i'm referring to is not in that they're intentionally wanting to hurt all Muslims, but in the reality that they will hurt all or most Muslims. Which is something that should have made them reconsider.

Which is exactly why its a "mis-aim". It wouldn't have been a mis-aim if all Muslims were exactly who they wanted to hurt or send a message to. IOW, the message is sent to all Muslims, yet those i'm referring to didn't have that as their goal, they wanted to send a message to just those who violently reacted. Which is why they should have reconsidered.

I don't think so. We can say that Christians were burning witches and we'd be justified in doing so. But clearly not all Christians were burning witches. In talking about it we can mention that, and thats perfectly fine, but it doesn't change the fact that it was Christians who were engaged in burning others.

Yes, we can say that. But once we get to specifics, like the specific i'm talking about here which clarifies why i think there's a problem with "Draw Muhammad day", insisting to refer to the ones responsible as Muslims in general is either dodging, not wanting to acknowledge the obvious or wanting to blur the situation and so forth.

Or, to be good intentioned, just a bad choice of words. Or not the best way to address the issue, since it avoids the point.

I don't think that is what people are doing. It seems to me that you may be guilty of the same offense that you charge those people with - your generalizing all of them and saying that they are all targeting all muslims, which I don't think is the case.

Like i clarified above, never made any such generalizations, in terms of them wanting to target all Muslims. And in the part you were replying to i specifically said "a lot of", not "all of". So even if i meant it in that sense it wouldn't have been a generalization.

I don't think that is the case. People make progress on all kinds of fronts in the war against idiocy. Granted, some may convert to idiocy if their minds are overwhelmed by the flood of dumb ideas, but I think most well-developed people can handle it.

You misunderstood me. I didn't mean it in terms of them converting to stupidity, rather in terms of making bad choices and stooping lower themselves, instead of lifting others.

 

[Anonymouse]

Originally Posted by eselam http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...raw-muhammad-day-post2928862.html#post2928862
And you too forgot to mention that it was the fault of Muhammed for what ever screwed reasons you guys can think of for making fun out of him and not that of pathetic bigots who have nothing better to do in life other than to insult others for no reason.

Originally posted by Beerisit
I think I need someone to explain to me how someone who has been dead for 1500yrs can be insulted. I don't get that.

Even Allah (who is all-knowing and holds the divine power and right over authority and justice) showed no sign of insult or offense. Draw Mohammed Day came and went without any godly judgment. How do Muslims account for this?

 

[Anonymouse]

And you too forgot to mention that it was the fault of Muhammed for what ever screwed reasons you guys can think of for making fun out of him and not that of pathetic bigots who have nothing better to do in life other than to insult others for no reason.

Did I mention that there was a small percentage of the artwork that was not insulting or degrading to Mohammed? That there were artists who took up the challenge to muster their time and talents to depict an homage of Mohammed sincerely, to the best of their ability? Did I mention that small children also participated in this event? Young children, in the prime of their artistic development, who probably had no interest or understanding that they could be threatened or killed by the same religious zealots who Mohammed preached and taught peace to?

 

[beerisit]

I can't think for the life of me why humans fight wars, when on an internet forum such a small thing can cause such animosity. I'm as much to blame as anybody, mea culpa, but I worry for my grandkids just as I did for my kids. Mankind is a strange creature.

 

[Anonymouse]

There is a baby who has been born with verses of the Qur'an..

I'm not following. What exactly do you mean when you say "born with verses of the Quran"? Are you talking about pages, a tattoo?

 

[nameless]

Why should they have to allow all of this in an Islamic country? Don't like their rules? Don't live there.

In KSA, people are not allowed to adopt another faith, refusal to church and temples are part of that. People should migrate to another nation to practice another faith?

 

[Quagmire]

We've already established earlier in this thread that comparing race to religion doesn't fly. Nice try, though.

The race/religion comparison is incidental. The principle involved is the point.

One thing that gets me about this place is that unless an analogy agrees with the thing it's meant to represent in every respect, the analogy is labeled false.

Seriously, it's like saying "A rolling stone gathers no moss" and having the person respond with "But people aren't stones. Stones are silicon based, people are carbon based so your analogy fails".

The principle is the same.

Of put it this way: if you see something invalid about the comparison aside from the moot observation that religion and race aren't the same thing, feel free to point it out.

They are not offended merely because they are muslim .

They are offended because the choose (while not necesarily consciously) to be offended.

This is blame the victim mentality. Regardless of why the people on the receiving end are offended, purposely offending a bunch of people for the actions of a small minority is unjustified.

Other people wont adhere to the same rules as islam, so it is understandable to let go the perception of offense by simple pictures.

Again: so would that make it OK to hold a "Draw Little Black Sambo Day"? After all, it's just a simple picture.

 

[Quagmire]

Let me put it into this context: I have witnessed babies being born black. I have yet to see for myself or documented evidence of a baby being born with a Quran or a Torah (honestly, where would they put it?).



If you were in a religion that honored and promoted peace above everything else and this axiom was not being upheld and regulated to the point that your religion degraded into barbarism, what would be your incentive to stay? If I’m not mistaken, there are many Muslims who are appalled and strongly disagree with cartoon killings. What are the reasons for these people to still be affiliated with Islam?

I don't know where to start with this one.

 

[beenie]

Contradict much? And, you're giving me a facepalm? LOL!

As opposed to you who wish to have higher standards than the rest of us.



I see little agreement from others here about sharing equal rights, you included.

I've done nothing but express disdain for any violent reaction to drawings of Muhammad. I think you are intentionally not reading my posts. I'm not going to turn this into a ******* match with you. In this last post, perhaps I wasn't clear enough, so I'll try it again.

If people within a society want to change the rules of their society, I welcome them to do so. Where I have an issue is when people outside stick their noses into countries under the guise of "democracy-building" and "equal rights for all" when their real eye is on the prize of having a presence where they're not welcome.

As far as the drawings, be my guest and have your day. I won't act out, mostly everyone I know won't act out, but I, as one moderate Muslim, am not responsible for those in Afghanistan who do.

In KSA, people are not allowed to adopt another faith, refusal to church and temples are part of that. People should migrate to another nation to practice another faith?

I disagree with not allowing people to leave their faith, including Islam. Forced belief and practice is a facade and shouldn't be tolerated. KSA doesn't implement shariah law correctly in just about any fashion, so I would never want to live there anyway. To answer your question, no I don't think they should have to leave. However, I don't see KSA changing their policies anytime soon, so I'm not sure what the solution is.

 

[beenie]

Where have I given the impression that I have higher standards than anyone else? I'm one of the first to pounce on anyone who supports violence for cartoons. If I can find the thread where I went at it with a fellow Muslim I will post the link.

 

[Me Myself]

What a load of hypocrisy. But do prove me wrong OK.

Don't like Islam and it's rules, ignore it and don't be mindful of us.

How is this hypocritical? I love arguing about stuff

I doubt must muslims enjoy their complainings about the drawings though, or am I wrong?

 

[Me Myself]

Again: so would that make it OK to hold a "Draw Little Black Sambo Day"? After all, it's just a simple picture.

I don´t even know what "little black sambo" is.

Is he a person of which the mere drawing of in any situation that be is regarded as insulting? did he actually existed? who is this black sambo?

 

[beenie]

Contradict much? And, you're giving me a facepalm? LOL!

As opposed to you who wish to have higher standards than the rest of us.

I see little agreement from others here about sharing equal rights, you included.

I never said they were condoning those acts. In fact, I went so far as to explain that this issue really has nothing to do with drawing pictures or the ensuing violence and everything to do with one group demanding to have more rights than the other.

Where have I given the impression that I have higher standards than anyone else? I'm one of the first to pounce on anyone who supports violence for cartoons. If I can find the thread where I went at it with a fellow Muslim I will post the link.

Found it:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...court-has-begun-blasphemy-proceedings-46.html

Most of my posts are on pages 46 and 47. There are probably more in there, but it's a long thread.

Here are some of my replies, because I'm not sure you'll take the time to look:

Originally Posted by ssainhu
what punishment do you think he deserves?
what will this punishment accomplish?
will Denmark be able to then reciprocate and punish the Jordanian courts because THEY'RE offended?

where does this stop? why can't it stop at a strong written statement condemning the intent of his cartoon? why can't we, as Muslims, take a stand without punishment? what happened to peaceful resistance?

in other words, why can't we prove him wrong?

my question was, what do YOU think the punishment should be? I personally think the death penalty shouldn't even be an option for a dumb cartoon...yes, I think it's a dumb cartoon.

Really? By punishing him with the possibility of death over a drawing...we won't be proving him right?

...so like i said before, his provocation might lead to war, so who should be punished?
war? over a cartoon? it's offensive, yes. but war?

Quote:

if they apologize, will Jordan drop the charges? will Westergaard be able to live without 24 hour protection?

Quote:
the court is working on that, thats the reason behind the trial, he can't be punished simply because we found his actions offencive.
you misunderstood my question. I asked, "why can't we prove him wrong?" Let me clarify: why can't we prove him wrong about us Muslims being terrorists by taking the high road instead of threatening him with death and putting him on trial?

Exactly, that's my point. Ignoring Westgaard and moving on really is the biggest insult to his ego. He's insignificant to Islam anyway, so why do we care so much? We've given him exactly the response he drew about.

I'm not sure why this is so hard to grasp.

Can you point me in the direction where I've said that Muslims should have more rights than others? Thank you.

 

[predavlad]

And you too forgot to mention that it was the fault of Muhammed for what ever screwed reasons you guys can think of for making fun out of him and not that of pathetic bigots who have nothing better to do in life other than to insult others for no reason.

Muhammad got maried to a 6 year old girl. BUT - and you have to give him credit for that - he did not consume the marriage until Aisha was 9 :clap

This is not an insult, it's simply information taken from the Qu'ran. Why is it bigoted to say / draw it? It's information from your own holy book which is supposedly perfect.

Let's say I make a beautiful painting of a 50 year old man with a 10 year old girl sitting on his lap, and call it "Grandfather with granddaughter". That would be perfectly ok, and you could probably appreciate it as art. But if I changed the title to "Muhammad and Aisha", I would outrage over 10% of the worlds population. Don't you notice a problem somewhere ?

 

[nameless]

Why should they have to allow all of this in an Islamic country? Don't like their rules? Don't live there.

freedom of knowledge should not be allowed in an islamic country? Make it optional, let interested people learn about evolution and interest-rate based finance theories ...

what do you mean by an islamic nation? a nation fully committed to save islam by taking away basic rights of people like freedom of religion and knowledge?

KSA doesn't implement shariah law correctly in just about any fashion, so I would never want to live there anyway.

not just KSA, the situation is same in other major islamic nations - pakistan, iran, and malaysia. In these nations muslims are not allowed to deny existence of allah or insult the prophet, why all these happen only in islamic nations? just coincidental?

 

[Quagmire]

Muhammad got maried to a 6 year old girl. BUT - and you have to give him credit for that - he did not consume the marriage until Aisha was 9 :clap

This is not an insult, it's simply information taken from the Qu'ran.

No, actually, it isn't. The Quran doesn't say anything about Aisha.

Guess it really was just an insult.