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Du'a Nudba contradicts the Bahai Faith.

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Now you are going all over the place. I answered the question, but you didn't like the answer.
I think whatever i said are connected, and are a reply to what you said.
Islam, simply does not have an answer to any of these questions. That has been always the way of God, that, prophecies are given in unclear language. It is for this reason, the Jews do not see Jesus as their own Messiah prophesied in Torah. It is for this reason that, the Jews and Christians do not see Muhammad as a Messenger prophesied in their Books. It is for the same reason, that, Sunnis, do not see the 12 infallible Imams prophesied in the Quran, and exactly, it is for the same reason that Muslims (Shia or Sunni) do not see Bahai Faith as the Revelation prophesied in the Quran.
If Shias today, see the 12 Imams in the Quran, it is merely because it supports their own religious beliefs, not because they discovered it in the scriptures. They are born in this sect, so, they inherited their beliefs from their forefathers. Likewise these Christians, who say Jesus is the Messiah, they say so, because it is supporting their own religion which they inherited from their forefathers. It is not really because they are well-grounded in knowledge and could see scriptures cleary. These same Shias, if they were born into a Sunni family, they would surely be unable to see 12 Imams in the Quran. And these same Christians, if they were born into a Jewish family, surely would reject Jesus.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Per Ahlulbayt (a) hadiths, Imam Ali (a) and Imams (A) are of the muhkamat (clear signs) and following Abu Bakr and Umar is of following the mutashibahat.

But you don't see the clear Quran.

Anyways, it can be said you are invested in Bahai Faith for similar reasons Ahmadis are invested in their faith. This kind of talk leads no where productive.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Here are some hadiths regarding verse 3:7:

العياشي عن الصادق عليه السلام انه سئل عن المحكم والمتشابه فقال المحكم ما يعمل به والمتشابه ما اشتبه على جاهله وقد سبقت أخبار آخر في تفسيرهما في المقدمة الرابعة.

وفي الكافي والعياشي عنه عليه السلام في تأويله أن المحكمات أمير المؤمنين والأئمة عليهم السلام والمتشابهات فلان وفلان.

{ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ } ميل عن الحق كالمبتدعة { فَيَتّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ } فيتعلّقون بظاهره أو بـتأويل باطل { ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ } طلب أن يفتنوا الناس عن دينهم بالتشكيك والتلبيس ومناقضة المحكم بالمتشابه.


Imam Sadiq (a) was asked about the clear and ambiguous, he said the clear is what is acted upon and the ambiguous is unclear due to ignorance (the author then says many such hadiths exist).

Imam Sadiq (a) regarding interpretation "the clear" is "the Commander of the faithful and the Imams/leaders (peace be upon them) and the ambiguous is fulan and fulan(which is an expression for Abu Bakr and Umar in our hadiths) who are away from the truth like an innovator "so they follow what is apparent and which it's interpretation is a falsehood "seeking discord" seeking to try/prosecute people regarding their religion "so those who have perversity in their hearts" by doubt and mixing and inorganizing the clear and ambiguous.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Per Ahlulbayt (a) hadiths, Imam Ali (a) and Imams (A) are of the muhkamat (clear signs) and following Abu Bakr and Umar is of following the mutashibahat.

But you don't see the clear Quran.

Anyways, it can be said you are invested in Bahai Faith for similar reasons Ahmadis are invested in their faith. This kind of talk leads no where productive.
Ahmadies are a sect of Islam. They still believe in Finally of the Quran. Bahai Faith is not a sect of Islam, because it believes the Laws of Islam are superceded.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Ahmadies are a sect of Islam. They still believe in Finally of the Quran. Bahai Faith is not a sect of Islam, because it believes the Laws of Islam are superceded.
Yet they exist and are a minority and don't follow any of the standard sects and interpretation just like you guys.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The point is - claims - can be by all people. I'm reminded of this from Tafsir Hassan Al-Askari (a).

We had sent down this Quran on a mountain, O Muhammad (S) you would have seen it falling down into pieces because of the fear of Allah. This scolding from Allah is for Jews and Nasibis who are compound of two matters and made up of two mistakes.

When this verse was revealed, the Jews found it very painful and they came to him respectfully and said: O Muhammad, you speak ill of us and what you claim about our hearts is quite wrong.

Though Allah know that we are good; we fast, give alms and help the poor. His Eminence (S) said: A good deed is one performed only for Allah and according to His command. If it is done to show off one wealth and status, or to oppose Allah’s apostle, it is not a good deed; it is only a mischief. One who commits such acts will be involved in nothing but trouble and Allah subject him to severe punishment in the Hereafter.

The Jews said: O Muhammad, this is what you say; but we say that whatever we do is to destroy your name, finish your rulership and make your companions separated from you. It is a religious war for us and we hope that Allah will give us great reward for it.

At the minimum we can say that you and we, both are alike in our claims. Now tell us what excellence you have over us? His Eminence (S) replied: O Jews! Indeed, in the matter of claims, both, the party of truth and the party of falsehood, are equal; but Allah’s proofs show the difference between both.

They falsify the party of falsehood and confirm those who are righteous. And Muhammad, the Prophet of Allah never becomes aggrieved with your ignorant statements and neither does he compel you to accept his prophethood without evidence. He establishes such a divine proof, which you cannot defeat.

You cannot escape from its imminent consequences. If Muhammad (S) shows any sign from himself you will be in doubt and say it is all false. He has deceived us or has done it by taking others’ help. But when you yourself ask for according to your choice, you will not be able to say thus. Whatever you request, will come before your eyes. So that the excuses of infidels would be finished and insight of believers increase. The Jews said: O Muhammad, you have said justly.

If you fulfill the promise you made and you fail to bring what we request, you will become helpless to give your claim of prophethood, you will have to enter our community and submit to the commands of Taurat. His Eminence (S) said: Making threats is of no use; truth will expose your real condition. Ask whatever you want, so that no excuse remains for you.

They said: O Muhammad, you think that we have no intention to help the poor and weak? And that our hearts are harder than rocks and more obedient to Allah? Let us go to one of the mountains and ask it to testify your claim and our falsehood. If it gives evidence in your support, it would become incumbent on us to start following you; if it falsifies you or remains quiet, we will know that you are a liar and you fight to fulfill your selfish desire. His Eminence (S) said: Very well, come, let us go to the mountain and ask for its testimony.

They went to a mountain on the outskirts of the town and Jews said: O Muhammad, ask this mountain to testify. His Eminence (S) addressed it: O mountain! For the sake of Muhammad and his purified progeny (by the auspiciousness of whose name Allah made His empyrean light on the shoulders of eight angels though before that numerous angels could not move it; and by those names Allah forgave the mistake of Adam (a.s.) and returned his original status.

And for the sake of those names, Allah sent Idrees (a.s.) to the abode of Paradise.) I ask you in the name of those blessed ones that you give the testimony for Muhammad (S) that Allah has entrusted you with, which has the mention of his confirmation about the hardness of their hearts and their denial of prophethood.

When His Eminence (S) said this, the mountain started moving, a quake ensued, and water started flowing from it. It called out: O Muhammad (S)! I give witness that you are the Messenger of the Lord of the worlds, chief of all the prior and the latter creatures; and I give evidence that their hearts are harder than rocks as you said. Not an iota of good comes out from them like sometimes floods erupt from rocks and sometimes water comes out little by little.

I testify that these people who blame you for attributing lies to God, are themselves liars. Then His Eminence (S) said to the mountain: I ask you to say that Allah has ordered you to obey my orders in all circumstances for the sake of Muhammad and his purified progeny, for whose sake Allah delivered Nuh (a.s.) from a great calamity, made the fire cool on Ibrahim Khalilullah and kept him safe from fire by making him sit on a throne that none had seen before, between flowers and fruits that grow in different seasons.

The mountain replied: O Muhammad (S), yes, I witness that whatever you said is true. I also give evidence that if you call on Allah to turn all men into apes and pigs, Allah will indeed do so or if you ask Him to turn them into angels, it will be surely done. If you pray to turn fire into ice and ice into fire, indeed it will happen so; or if you pray to Allah to make the sky fall on the earth and to raise the earth on the sky it will come about.

If you pray to Allah to make the East and West of the earth like a bag, then indeed Allah will do so. I testify that Allah has made all skies, earth, mountains, seas and forests obedient to you. The winds, lightning, animals and all people are obedient to you; and they shall do whatever you say.

After seeing these obvious miracles, the Jews said: O Muhammad, you are deceiving us. You have hidden your followers behind the rocks and they speak to you and you say that the mountain is speaking. We don’t know, whether the voice we hear is of the mountain or people. Only the foolish can be duped in this way.

If you are true in your claim, move away from this mountain and order it to uproot itself and come to you. When it comes to you, order it to split into two horizontally and that the lower part rise up and upper part come down; when this is done, we will accept that it is from Allah and that nobody has cheated us. Then His Eminence (S) gestured to a stone that weighed around two kilos and said: O stone, start rotating. The stone began to rotate at once.

When it came near, His Eminence (S) said to the Jew who was standing near to pick it up and bring it to his ear so that this may also give the testimony that the mountain had given because that stone was a piece of that mountain.

When the Jew brought it to the ear, the stone began to speak by the power of Allah and said that in the same voice that came from the mountain that whatever blame the Jews laid on Muhammad were invalid and they were only to the detriment of the Jews themselves. His Eminence (S) said: Did you hear what the stone said? Was there someone sitting behind this stone also and talking with you to deceives you? Or this stone is talking with you?

The Jew said: No, it is not so, but you fulfill what I have requested you. His Eminence (S) went to stand in a big open field and called out: O mountain! For the sake of Muhammad and his progeny, just as Allah sent the swift wind on the people of Aad, which destroyed the people just as dates fall from the trees and ordered Jibraeel (a.s.) to raise a dreadful loud voice on the people of Aad; hence it happened so and because of the severe fatal blow, all people dropped dead like hay, you also dislocate from your place and come to me. Saying this, he put his hands on the ground.

The mountain made a movement and immediately came to stand where His Eminence (S) had indicated and its roots came near the fingers of His Eminence (S). Then it said: O Messenger of the Lord of the worlds (S), I am here to listen to your commands with heart to obey you. If you want me to disgrace your enemies, I can do it for you.

His Eminence (S) said: These opponents have asked me to order you to uproot from the earth and split into two in such a way that your upper half may come down and your lower part go to the top. The mountain asked: O Allah’s Messenger, do you order me this? He said: Yes. Immediately the mountain split into two and its lower part went up and the upper came down.

Then the mountain called: O Jews! Is this miracle less than what Musa (a.s.) showed and whom you believe? The Jews stared at each other. Some said: We have no excuse left. And some said: This man is very fortunate. He gets whatever he intends and shows many wonders. Don’t be tricked by his wonder acts.

The mountain said: O enemies of Allah, you falsified the prophethood of Musa (a.s.) in the same way. Did you not say that the turning of Musa’s staff into a python, splitting of the sea and the raising of the mountain was all because he was fortunate to show those wonders? And that you will not be deceived by those wonder acts?

After this scathing reproof the mountain swallowed all those Jews by the command of Allah and the Divine Proof became obligatory on them.


My (Link) comments: We can see that claims can be similar in outward. The difference is about truth. And who has the truth has to do with proofs. God proves his religion on clear proofs.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
The point is - claims - can be by all people. I'm reminded of this from Tafsir Hassan Al-Askari (a).

We had sent down this Quran on a mountain, O Muhammad (S) you would have seen it falling down into pieces because of the fear of Allah. This scolding from Allah is for Jews and Nasibis who are compound of two matters and made up of two mistakes.

When this verse was revealed, the Jews found it very painful and they came to him respectfully and said: O Muhammad, you speak ill of us and what you claim about our hearts is quite wrong.

Though Allah know that we are good; we fast, give alms and help the poor. His Eminence (S) said: A good deed is one performed only for Allah and according to His command. If it is done to show off one wealth and status, or to oppose Allah’s apostle, it is not a good deed; it is only a mischief. One who commits such acts will be involved in nothing but trouble and Allah subject him to severe punishment in the Hereafter.

The Jews said: O Muhammad, this is what you say; but we say that whatever we do is to destroy your name, finish your rulership and make your companions separated from you. It is a religious war for us and we hope that Allah will give us great reward for it.

At the minimum we can say that you and we, both are alike in our claims. Now tell us what excellence you have over us? His Eminence (S) replied: O Jews! Indeed, in the matter of claims, both, the party of truth and the party of falsehood, are equal; but Allah’s proofs show the difference between both.

They falsify the party of falsehood and confirm those who are righteous. And Muhammad, the Prophet of Allah never becomes aggrieved with your ignorant statements and neither does he compel you to accept his prophethood without evidence. He establishes such a divine proof, which you cannot defeat.

You cannot escape from its imminent consequences. If Muhammad (S) shows any sign from himself you will be in doubt and say it is all false. He has deceived us or has done it by taking others’ help. But when you yourself ask for according to your choice, you will not be able to say thus. Whatever you request, will come before your eyes. So that the excuses of infidels would be finished and insight of believers increase. The Jews said: O Muhammad, you have said justly.

If you fulfill the promise you made and you fail to bring what we request, you will become helpless to give your claim of prophethood, you will have to enter our community and submit to the commands of Taurat. His Eminence (S) said: Making threats is of no use; truth will expose your real condition. Ask whatever you want, so that no excuse remains for you.

They said: O Muhammad, you think that we have no intention to help the poor and weak? And that our hearts are harder than rocks and more obedient to Allah? Let us go to one of the mountains and ask it to testify your claim and our falsehood. If it gives evidence in your support, it would become incumbent on us to start following you; if it falsifies you or remains quiet, we will know that you are a liar and you fight to fulfill your selfish desire. His Eminence (S) said: Very well, come, let us go to the mountain and ask for its testimony.

They went to a mountain on the outskirts of the town and Jews said: O Muhammad, ask this mountain to testify. His Eminence (S) addressed it: O mountain! For the sake of Muhammad and his purified progeny (by the auspiciousness of whose name Allah made His empyrean light on the shoulders of eight angels though before that numerous angels could not move it; and by those names Allah forgave the mistake of Adam (a.s.) and returned his original status.

And for the sake of those names, Allah sent Idrees (a.s.) to the abode of Paradise.) I ask you in the name of those blessed ones that you give the testimony for Muhammad (S) that Allah has entrusted you with, which has the mention of his confirmation about the hardness of their hearts and their denial of prophethood.

When His Eminence (S) said this, the mountain started moving, a quake ensued, and water started flowing from it. It called out: O Muhammad (S)! I give witness that you are the Messenger of the Lord of the worlds, chief of all the prior and the latter creatures; and I give evidence that their hearts are harder than rocks as you said. Not an iota of good comes out from them like sometimes floods erupt from rocks and sometimes water comes out little by little.

I testify that these people who blame you for attributing lies to God, are themselves liars. Then His Eminence (S) said to the mountain: I ask you to say that Allah has ordered you to obey my orders in all circumstances for the sake of Muhammad and his purified progeny, for whose sake Allah delivered Nuh (a.s.) from a great calamity, made the fire cool on Ibrahim Khalilullah and kept him safe from fire by making him sit on a throne that none had seen before, between flowers and fruits that grow in different seasons.

The mountain replied: O Muhammad (S), yes, I witness that whatever you said is true. I also give evidence that if you call on Allah to turn all men into apes and pigs, Allah will indeed do so or if you ask Him to turn them into angels, it will be surely done. If you pray to turn fire into ice and ice into fire, indeed it will happen so; or if you pray to Allah to make the sky fall on the earth and to raise the earth on the sky it will come about.

If you pray to Allah to make the East and West of the earth like a bag, then indeed Allah will do so. I testify that Allah has made all skies, earth, mountains, seas and forests obedient to you. The winds, lightning, animals and all people are obedient to you; and they shall do whatever you say.

After seeing these obvious miracles, the Jews said: O Muhammad, you are deceiving us. You have hidden your followers behind the rocks and they speak to you and you say that the mountain is speaking. We don’t know, whether the voice we hear is of the mountain or people. Only the foolish can be duped in this way.

If you are true in your claim, move away from this mountain and order it to uproot itself and come to you. When it comes to you, order it to split into two horizontally and that the lower part rise up and upper part come down; when this is done, we will accept that it is from Allah and that nobody has cheated us. Then His Eminence (S) gestured to a stone that weighed around two kilos and said: O stone, start rotating. The stone began to rotate at once.

When it came near, His Eminence (S) said to the Jew who was standing near to pick it up and bring it to his ear so that this may also give the testimony that the mountain had given because that stone was a piece of that mountain.

When the Jew brought it to the ear, the stone began to speak by the power of Allah and said that in the same voice that came from the mountain that whatever blame the Jews laid on Muhammad were invalid and they were only to the detriment of the Jews themselves. His Eminence (S) said: Did you hear what the stone said? Was there someone sitting behind this stone also and talking with you to deceives you? Or this stone is talking with you?

The Jew said: No, it is not so, but you fulfill what I have requested you. His Eminence (S) went to stand in a big open field and called out: O mountain! For the sake of Muhammad and his progeny, just as Allah sent the swift wind on the people of Aad, which destroyed the people just as dates fall from the trees and ordered Jibraeel (a.s.) to raise a dreadful loud voice on the people of Aad; hence it happened so and because of the severe fatal blow, all people dropped dead like hay, you also dislocate from your place and come to me. Saying this, he put his hands on the ground.

The mountain made a movement and immediately came to stand where His Eminence (S) had indicated and its roots came near the fingers of His Eminence (S). Then it said: O Messenger of the Lord of the worlds (S), I am here to listen to your commands with heart to obey you. If you want me to disgrace your enemies, I can do it for you.

His Eminence (S) said: These opponents have asked me to order you to uproot from the earth and split into two in such a way that your upper half may come down and your lower part go to the top. The mountain asked: O Allah’s Messenger, do you order me this? He said: Yes. Immediately the mountain split into two and its lower part went up and the upper came down.

Then the mountain called: O Jews! Is this miracle less than what Musa (a.s.) showed and whom you believe? The Jews stared at each other. Some said: We have no excuse left. And some said: This man is very fortunate. He gets whatever he intends and shows many wonders. Don’t be tricked by his wonder acts.

The mountain said: O enemies of Allah, you falsified the prophethood of Musa (a.s.) in the same way. Did you not say that the turning of Musa’s staff into a python, splitting of the sea and the raising of the mountain was all because he was fortunate to show those wonders? And that you will not be deceived by those wonder acts?

After this scathing reproof the mountain swallowed all those Jews by the command of Allah and the Divine Proof became obligatory on them.


My (Link) comments: We can see that claims can be similar in outward. The difference is about truth. And who has the truth has to do with proofs. God proves his religion on clear proofs.
My question is to you, Link. How do you know what this Hadith is saying, actually, and literally happend?
Let me ask the question this way. If you were not a Muslim, do you just accept this story as proof, or you demand evidence that can be verified?

Since, there is no evidence, it cannot be proved to anyone that such things actually happened. This is why Allah does not establish truth by these things, rather, Allah establishes truth through His words:



أَمۡ یَقُولُونَ ٱفۡتَرَىٰ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ كَذِبࣰاۖ فَإِن یَشَإِ ٱللَّهُ یَخۡتِمۡ عَلَىٰ قَلۡبِكَۗ وَیَمۡحُ ٱللَّهُ ٱلۡبَـٰطِلَ وَیُحِقُّ ٱلۡحَقَّ بِكَلِمَـٰتِهِۦۤۚ إِنَّهُۥ عَلِیمُۢ بِذَاتِ ٱلصُّدُورِ


"Or do they say, "He has invented about Allah a lie"? But if Allah willed, He could seal over your heart. And Allah eliminates falsehood and establishes the truth by His words. Indeed, He is Knowing of that within the breasts"
42:24


وَإِذْ يَعِدُكُمُ ٱللَّهُ إِحْدَى ٱلطَّآئِفَتَيْنِ أَنَّهَا لَكُمْ وَتَوَدُّونَ أَنَّ غَيْرَ ذَاتِ ٱلشَّوْكَةِ تَكُونُ لَكُمْ وَيُرِيدُ ٱللَّهُ أَن يُحِقَّ ٱلْحَقَّ بِكَلِمَـٰتِهِۦ وَيَقْطَعَ دَابِرَ ٱلْكَـٰفِرِينَ

"when Allāh promised you one of the two groups1 - that it would be yours - and you wished that the unarmed one would be yours. But Allāh intended to establish the truth by His words and to eliminate the disbelievers" 8:7

— Saheeh International

"By His Words", meaning through logical arguments, and reasoning, truth is known (not through performing Magics or Miracles"


وَیُحِقُّٱللَّهُ ٱلۡحَقَّ بِكَلِمَـٰتِهِۦ وَلَوۡ كَرِهَ ٱلۡمُجۡرِمُونَ

And Allah will establish the truth by His words, even if the criminals dislike it."

10:82
 
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InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
@Link

Here is a question about these Quran verses:


"And after those [earlier prophets] We sent Moses and Aaron with Our messages unto Pharaoh and his great ones: but they gloried in their arrogance, for they were people lost in sin
10:76 And so, when the truth came to them from Us, they said, "Behold, this is clearly nothing but sorcery!"
10:77 Said Moses: "Do you speak thus of the truth after it has been brought to you? Can this be sorcery? But sorcerers can never come to a happy end!"
10:78 [The great ones] replied: "Hast thou come to turn us away from what we found our forefathers believing in and doing, so that the two of you might become supreme in this land? However, we do not believe in you two!"


See verse 10:76. Notice at this point, the Quran does not say that Moses showed miracles to them. Rather it says "Truth came to them from God" and they said "this is clearly nothing but sorcery"

From this, you should understand that, when the Prophets proved the truth by the words of God, that They are the Prophets of God, the disbelievers accused them of sorcery. By "sorcery", they meant that, those prophets were tricking them by their words to convince them. And because they had nothing to disprove them, therefore they accused them of sorcery! Meaning the Prophets were tricking them by their words and arguments, to turn them away from their own religion, and follow the new Religion.

Just as it is happening now, in our time.
As shown, how all the signs of the Quran, Hadith and Bible, are saying, "Day of Resurrection" is the time of a new Manifestation, a new Revelation, that was promised to come 1000 years after Islam. And though this is exactly happend, and all the signs of the Mahdi match with the Bab and Baha'u'llah, including the year, place, name and everything else, yet, the only thing is said, this is a trick!
 
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Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

This is from the end of Tafsir Al-Mizan:

وفي تفسير القمي حدثني أبي عن ابن أبي نجران عن عاصم بن حميد عن محمد بن مسلم قال سمعت أبا جعفر عليه السلام يقول في قول الله عز وجل { قل لا أسألكم عليه أجراً إلا المودة في القربى } يعني في أهل بيته. قال جاءت الأنصار إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم فقالوا إنا قد آوينا ونصرنا فخذ طائفة من أموالنا فاستعن بها على ما نابك فأنزل الله عز وجل { قل لا أسألكم عليه أجراً إلا المودة في القربى } أي في أهل بيته. ثم قال ألا ترى أن الرجل يكون له صديق وفي نفس ذلك الرجل شيء على أهل بيته فلا يسلم صدره فأراد الله عز وجل أن لا يكون في نفس رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم شيء على أُمته ففرض الله عليهم المودة في القربى فإن أخذوا أخذوا مفروضاً، وإن تركوا تركوا مفروضاً. قال فانصرفوا من عنده وبعضهم يقول عرضنا عليه أموالنا فقال لا. قاتلوا عن أهل بيتي من بعدي، وقال طائفة ما قال هذا رسول الله وجحدوه وقالوا كما حكى الله عز وجل { أم يقولون افترى على الله كذباً } فقال عز وجل { فإن يشأ الله يختم على قلبك } قال لو افتريت { ويمح الله الباطل } يعني يبطله { ويحق الحق بكلماته } يعني بالأئمة والقائم من آل محمد عليه السلام { إنه عليم بذات الصدور }. أقول وروى قصة الأنصار السيوطي في الدر المنثور عن الطبراني وابن مردويه من طريق ابن جبير وضعّفه.

And Tasfir Al-Qummi (the chain) - I heard Abu Jafar (a) say regarding God's words "I ask you no reward for it except the love in the kin" meaning in his the people of his household, he said the Ansar came to the Messenger of God (s) and said take a portion of our wealth and help us by what has giving you tidings so God revealed "say I ask you no reward except the loving in the kin" meaning in the people of my household, then he said thereis no man that has a friend and in the soul of that person (the friend) has anything against the people of my household and so his heart does not submit... (long hadith) (to make things shorter)... "and he verifies the truth with his words" meaning the Imams and Qaim from the family of Mohammad (a)...

Tabatabai then says this hadith is narrating in Dar al-Manthur from Tabarsi and ibn Marduya from the path of Jabir and he weakened it.

My comment: Per hadiths and Du'as and Ziyarats, Imams (a) are the perfect word of God on earth or his words. This means they are his beautiful names as hadiths also say.

So with regards to Musa (a). The truth is in the display of power through miracles and the one performing it is one of God's words.
 

Link

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The truth with this is easily determined.

Produce the verse that says Quran is final Book of Allah and no book will be given after the Quran.

Regards Tony
You've already seen it which is why Baha'allah had to perform sophistry to justify his claim to Nubuwa.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
You've already seen it which is why Baha'allah had to perform sophistry to justify his claim to Nubuwa.
Personally, I see the good thing Link, is that I had no preconceptions about Muhammad and the Quran, nor any other Messemger and I found Allah, Muhammad and the Quran because of the Message given by the Bab and Baha'u'llah. I found the One God of all the Messengers through the Messages given by the Bab and Baha'u'llah and see One God in the Message given in all of the past scriptures.

Is not Islam submission to One God? Is not a goal of Islam to be united in service under the One God?

Regards Tony
 

Link

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Personally, I see the good thing Link, is that I had no preconceptions about Muhammad and the Quran, nor any other Messemger and I found Allah, Muhammad and the Quran because of the Message given by the Bab and Baha'u'llah. I found the One God of all the Messengers through the Messages given by the Bab and Baha'u'llah and see One God in the Message given in all of the past scriptures.

Is not Islam submission to One God? Is not a goal of Islam to be united in service under the One God?

Regards Tony
With claims, you and I are on same wave length. However, with proofs, you have none, while I do.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
You've already seen it which is why Baha'allah had to perform sophistry to justify his claim to Nubuwa.
What I see, is that Quran was a book sent to test humanity, just as all the Books of God have been. It does not say it was to be the last book, the Baha Writings are not the Last book either.

"5:48
وَأَنزَلْنَآ إِلَيْكَ ٱلْكِتَـٰبَ بِٱلْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًۭا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ ٱلْكِتَـٰبِ وَمُهَيْمِنًا عَلَيْهِ ۖ فَٱحْكُم بَيْنَهُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ ۖ وَلَا تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَآءَهُمْ عَمَّا جَآءَكَ مِنَ ٱلْحَقِّ ۚ لِكُلٍّۢ جَعَلْنَا مِنكُمْ شِرْعَةًۭ وَمِنْهَاجًۭا ۚ وَلَوْ شَآءَ ٱللَّهُ لَجَعَلَكُمْ أُمَّةًۭ وَٰحِدَةًۭ وَلَـٰكِن لِّيَبْلُوَكُمْ فِى مَآ ءَاتَىٰكُمْ ۖ فَٱسْتَبِقُوا۟ ٱلْخَيْرَٰتِ ۚ إِلَى ٱللَّهِ مَرْجِعُكُمْ جَمِيعًۭا فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;"

The Baha'i Scriptures confirm the Quran, the Book sent before them. Our goal, is to be One with Allah. Let Allah be our guide.

Regards Tony
 
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Link

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Salam

With the world coming to an end, there has to be a last Ahlulbayt. So it's inevitable it happens. We believe Mohammad (s) and his family (a) is the last Ahlulbayt (a).

Not only do I believe that, I believe it's clear per Quran that Jesus (a) is alive, and that others such as Elyas (a) and Idris (a) are alive. They been saved for a special day, that has yet to come. I do believe in the actual Jesus (a) coming back and supporting Imam Mahdi (a).

What Baha'allah stated was the Quran does mean Mohammad (s) is the final Nabi, but it meant in a way that all Nabis are each other, and so he is the last Nabi just he is the first Adam type expression.

Now Quran does refer to Ali (a) as the "soul" of the Prophet and there can be expressions about the single unity of the chosen ones and the holy spirit being one which Quran does have. However, it's way out of place of the language to make it mean that here. Every expression has a style and a way, and here it's clear God is being serious about Mohammad (s) being the final Nabi.

Also Baha'allah contradicts himself later and says Mohammad (s) is the final of the Adamic cycle and now there is a new cycle.

I believe the Quran is clear there is no more books because per Quran, books don't come down from the sky but are channeled through a Nabi. The final Nabi being Mohammad (s) per Quran and clear hadiths as well including Du'a Nudba have it to be there is no Nabi after Mohammad (s). Therefore it's clear there is no new holy book from God.

Also, the Mahdi is one person, while you guys make it to be Bab and Baha'allah both. All these are clear proofs that your Prophet is not a true one.

During Mohammad (s) time, there was a false Prophet, but he didn't gain popularity. But Mohammad (s) in clear terms called him a liar. He didn't say, we both claim submission to God and that we are on equal playing field.

The Quran towers above all, and the Bahai Scriptures come no where near it.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Salam

This is from the end of Tafsir Al-Mizan:

وفي تفسير القمي حدثني أبي عن ابن أبي نجران عن عاصم بن حميد عن محمد بن مسلم قال سمعت أبا جعفر عليه السلام يقول في قول الله عز وجل { قل لا أسألكم عليه أجراً إلا المودة في القربى } يعني في أهل بيته. قال جاءت الأنصار إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم فقالوا إنا قد آوينا ونصرنا فخذ طائفة من أموالنا فاستعن بها على ما نابك فأنزل الله عز وجل { قل لا أسألكم عليه أجراً إلا المودة في القربى } أي في أهل بيته. ثم قال ألا ترى أن الرجل يكون له صديق وفي نفس ذلك الرجل شيء على أهل بيته فلا يسلم صدره فأراد الله عز وجل أن لا يكون في نفس رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم شيء على أُمته ففرض الله عليهم المودة في القربى فإن أخذوا أخذوا مفروضاً، وإن تركوا تركوا مفروضاً. قال فانصرفوا من عنده وبعضهم يقول عرضنا عليه أموالنا فقال لا. قاتلوا عن أهل بيتي من بعدي، وقال طائفة ما قال هذا رسول الله وجحدوه وقالوا كما حكى الله عز وجل { أم يقولون افترى على الله كذباً } فقال عز وجل { فإن يشأ الله يختم على قلبك } قال لو افتريت { ويمح الله الباطل } يعني يبطله { ويحق الحق بكلماته } يعني بالأئمة والقائم من آل محمد عليه السلام { إنه عليم بذات الصدور }. أقول وروى قصة الأنصار السيوطي في الدر المنثور عن الطبراني وابن مردويه من طريق ابن جبير وضعّفه.

And Tasfir Al-Qummi (the chain) - I heard Abu Jafar (a) say regarding God's words "I ask you no reward for it except the love in the kin" meaning in his the people of his household, he said the Ansar came to the Messenger of God (s) and said take a portion of our wealth and help us by what has giving you tidings so God revealed "say I ask you no reward except the loving in the kin" meaning in the people of my household, then he said thereis no man that has a friend and in the soul of that person (the friend) has anything against the people of my household and so his heart does not submit... (long hadith) (to make things shorter)... "and he verifies the truth with his words" meaning the Imams and Qaim from the family of Mohammad (a)...

Tabatabai then says this hadith is narrating in Dar al-Manthur from Tabarsi and ibn Marduya from the path of Jabir and he weakened it.

My comment: Per hadiths and Du'as and Ziyarats, Imams (a) are the perfect word of God on earth or his words. This means they are his beautiful names as hadiths also say.

So with regards to Musa (a). The truth is in the display of power through miracles and the one performing it is one of God's words.
The Infallible Imams did not interpret those verses as "Miracles" are "word of God". That's what you are saying.

Quran has two parts. A part are Muhkamaat and another are Mutishabihat.

When it says, God establishes truth with His words, this is Muhkamaat.
When it says, Prophets performed Miracles to show Truth, this is now Mutishabihaat.
We need to recognize which verse is Muhkamaat, and which verse is Mutishabihaat, and do not follow the literal meaning of Mutishabihaat.

In such cases, the correct Taweel of the Mutishabihat is required.


'Moses', Armed with the rod of celestial dominion, adorned with the white hand of divine knowledge, and proceeding from the Párán of the love of God, and wielding the serpent of power and everlasting majesty, He shone forth from the Sinai of light upon the world.
Baha'u'llah, Book of Iqan

What is intended by "Rod" of Moses, is Celestial dominion. By "White Hand", is meant "Divine knowledge", and the Serpent of Moses, denotes His 'Power and Majesty", all of these are Metaphors with Symbolic meaning. No Magic or strange Miracle. God expects people to recognize Prophets, from their Wisdom, Light, Knowledge and Spiritual Majesty. Not from performing Shows like David Copperfield!
 

Link

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Premium Member
The Infallible Imams did not interpret those verses as "Miracles" are "word of God". That's what you are saying.

Quran has two parts. A part are Muhkamaat and another are Mutishabihat.

When it says, God establishes truth with His words, this is Muhkamaat.
When it says, Prophets performed Miracles to show Truth, this is now Mutishabihaat.
We need to recognize which verse is Muhkamaat, and which verse is Mutishabihaat, and do not follow the literal meaning of Mutishabihaat.

In such cases, the correct Taweel of the Mutishabihat is required.


'Moses', Armed with the rod of celestial dominion, adorned with the white hand of divine knowledge, and proceeding from the Párán of the love of God, and wielding the serpent of power and everlasting majesty, He shone forth from the Sinai of light upon the world.
Baha'u'llah, Book of Iqan

What is intended by "Rod" of Moses, is Celestial dominion. By "White Hand", is meant "Divine knowledge", and the Serpent of Moses, denotes His 'Power and Majesty", all of these are Metaphors with Symbolic meaning. No Magic or strange Miracle. God expects people to recognize Prophets, from their Wisdom, Light, Knowledge and Spiritual Majesty. Not from performing Shows like David Copperfield!

You are misquoting what I'm saying. I am saying Musa (a) is one of the words of God.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
By "White Hand",

This is a mistranslation. His hand became bright but it didn't harm the eyes like light normally would if that bright. See Tafsir Hassan Al-Askari (a) about how the signs of Mohammad (s) were greater in this regard.
 
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