Du'a Nudba contradicts the Bahai Faith.

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'Moses', Armed with the rod of celestial dominion, adorned with the white hand of divine knowledge, and proceeding from the Párán of the love of God, and wielding the serpent of power and everlasting majesty, He shone forth from the Sinai of light upon the world.
Baha'u'llah, Book of Iqan

You might find such interpretation enlightening, I almost puke thinking about it. How does a serpent represent everlasting power and majesty? This is very bad writing.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You are misquoting what I'm saying. I am saying Musa (a) is one of the words of God.

Ok, i misread your post.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You might find such interpretation enlightening, I almost puke thinking about it. How does a serpent represent everlasting power and majesty?

Moses serpent ate the snakes of the sorcerers. So, it represents the Power and Majesty of Moses.

This is very bad writing.

Really?

 

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Moses serpent ate the snakes of the sorcerers. So, it represents the Power and Majesty of Moses.

I'm talking about the metaphor of the snake representing power and majesty. It makes no sense.

You can say cauliflower represents his power and majesty for example, it does not make sense as a metaphor. Same with snake.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I'm talking about the metaphor of the snake representing power and majesty. It makes no sense.

You can say cauliflower represents his power and majesty for example, it does not make sense as a metaphor. Same with snake.

I would understand its meaning from the whole context though. So in the story of Moses, who first changed the stick to Serpent? Moses or the Sorcerers.
If i recall correctly, it was Moses who did this first. Then Pharaoh asked the Sorcerers to do the same thing. And then Moses Serpent ate their snakes.
So, why do you think Moses started such an act, before even those Sorcerers do this? Does it make sense that all the Sudden a prophet turns his stick to a Serpent? He could have done many better things if you are thinking of it as a literal miracle.
It makes sense to me, this story is symbolic, and is meant to test the believers, if they see it as a literal miracle, or see it as Mutishabihat. That's the main reason, God has put stories like this in the Scriptures, so He may test the believers. There is no other purpose whatsoever! It is not like God wants to use metaphors because they are beautiful. It is meant to test, if a believer recognizes this is Mutishabihat. Remember the story of Jesus or Muhammad as per scriptures?
Everytime, the infidels asked them to do Miracles, They rejected them. Jesus, even said, a adulterer generation asks for Miracles only. God does not like those who are after Miracles. He loves those who are after wisdom, spirituality, and ethics. For this reason, He wrote scriptures to have a hidden meaning. So, those who are after Miracles would see them as miracles, and fail the Test, and those who pass the test, they see spiritual and ethical lessons in them.
Just how I see it.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam

With the world coming to an end, there has to be a last Ahlulbayt.

Salam.

per Quran, there was a first creation and after the first creation ends, there will be a new creation:

أَفَعَيِينَا بِالْخَلْقِ الْأَوَّلِ ۚ بَلْ هُمْ فِي لَبْسٍ مِّنْ خَلْقٍ جَدِيدٍ

"Were We then fatigued with the first creation? Yet are they in doubt with regard to a new creation."

50:15

The first creation, is from Adam till the Qaim. The new creation starts with Qaim. Manifestation of the Qaim, is End of the world (first creation), then a new Creation or world begins with revelation of the Qaim.

By creation is not meant physical creation. It is meant creation of humanity through successive Revelations from Adam till Muhammad, the Last Prophet in the first cycle of creation.
For example see Surah Al-Rahman:

ٱلرَّحْمَـٰنُ ١ عَلَّمَ ٱلْقُرْءَانَ ٢ خَلَقَ ٱلْإِنسَـٰنَ

Notice, it says, God taught the Quran and then created Human. Why? Because God creates Human qualities by Revelations. All Prophets from Adam till Muhammad were part of this First Creation. All Manifestations starting from the Qaim, are part of the New Creation.

So it's inevitable it happens. We believe Mohammad (s) and his family (a) is the last Ahlulbayt (a).

it is not only Muslims who believe their Religion is the Last one. Before Muslims, Christians and Jews also believed their religion is the final. This is due to misinterpretation of the Holy Books. Not that God said that.

Not only do I believe that, I believe it's clear per Quran that Jesus (a) is alive, and that others such as Elyas (a) and Idris (a) are alive.

I also believe Jesus is alive. It is to be understood through this verse:

وَلَا تَقُولُوا۟ لِمَن يُقْتَلُ فِى سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ أَمْوَٰتٌۢ ۚ بَلْ أَحْيَآءٌۭ وَلَـٰكِن لَّا تَشْعُرُونَ ١٥٤


Never say that those martyred in the cause of Allah are dead—in fact, they are alive! But you do not perceive it
2:154

In fact Imam Hussain, Hassan, Ali, and the rest of them are also alive. No difference whatsoever.

They been saved for a special day, that has yet to come. I do believe in the actual Jesus (a) coming back and supporting Imam Mahdi (a).

Correct understanding of Return or Rajaat (رجعة) is through understanding Holy Books correctly.

Think about this passage from the Bible:


The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”

11 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.


Also, think about this Hadith, which is recorded in Bihar Alanwar:

47- Maniul Akhbar: Ibne Walid has narrated from Saffar from Ahmad bin Muhammad from Uthman bin Isa from Salih bin Mitham from Abaya Asadi that he heard Amirul Momineen (a.s.) say reclining on a pillow, while I stood before him:
“We will definitely construct a pulpit in Egypt and destroy Damascus and remove the Jews and Christians from each corner of the Arab world and drive all the Arabs through this staff.”
Abaya says: I asked: O Amirul Momineen (a.s.), as if you want to say that you will return after death?
He replied, “It is not so, O Abaya, as you think; a man from me (my descendants) would perform these tasks.”


When the Imams spoke of Return, they were speaking in Mutishabihat. They did not mean, actually the same Prophets or Imams come back to the World, but rather new Ones, who are as if All previous Imams and Prophets have returned. Mutishabihat is to test and separate people of Reality from People of falsehood.

What Baha'allah stated was the Quran does mean Mohammad (s) is the final Nabi, but it meant in a way that all Nabis are each other, and so he is the last Nabi just he is the first Adam type expression.

That is not what Baha'u'llah said. Baha'u'llah never said, Seal of Prophets means, Muhammad was the Last Prophet. He said, if All Prophets be called Seal of Prophets, is correct (because it does not mean final prophet as understood by the Muslims). Likewise all Prophets can be called Adam.

Now Quran does refer to Ali (a) as the "soul" of the Prophet and there can be expressions about the single unity of the chosen ones and the holy spirit being one which Quran does have. However, it's way out of place of the language to make it mean that here. Every expression has a style and a way, and here it's clear God is being serious about Mohammad (s) being the final Nabi.

God did not say, Muhammad is the Final Prophet. He said Muhammad is the Signet Ring of Prophets (خاتم). It is your interpretation that Signet Rings of Prophets mean, the Last Prophet. Imam Ali explained in a Hadith, what it means. It has nothing with finality. I already quoted the Hadith, no need to repeat.
What can I do when you say you are a Shia, but when I quote a Hadith from Ali, you simply choose not to accept it?!

Also Baha'allah contradicts himself later and says Mohammad (s) is the final of the Adamic cycle and now there is a new cycle.

I already explained the previous Cycle and New Cycle from the Qur'an, known as first creation and new creation.

I believe the Quran is clear there is no more books because per Quran, books don't come down from the sky but are channeled through a Nabi. The final Nabi being Mohammad (s) per Quran and clear hadiths as well including Du'a Nudba have it to be there is no Nabi after Mohammad (s). Therefore it's clear there is no new holy book from God.

in Dua Nudba, it says, where is He who comes to renew the Laws and Ordinances! Meaning Mahdi, as another Prophet comes to bring a new Law to replace the old Law (Quranic Shariah).

Also, the Mahdi is one person, while you guys make it to be Bab and Baha'allah both. All these are clear proofs that your Prophet is not a true one.

Hadithes speak of two Persons who come at the End. The Qaim and Return of Christ. The Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Baha'u'llah was first a follower of the Bab (Christ prays behind Mahdi), then After Mahdi, rhe Christ leads (Baha'u'llah).
But both, the Qaim and Christ can be called the Mahdi (the Righly guided), and both can be called the Qaim (the one who arises), and both can be called Christ, because both are spiritual Return of Christ.
Understanding Hadithes is not that simple. They can be misleading if the Mutishabihat are not recognized.
The Hadithes say the Qaim lives 120 years. Meaning, when the Qaim rises, He stays 120 years. So, it is not one person who lives 120 years, because the Qaim lives only 7 years as per Hadithes.

During Mohammad (s) time, there was a false Prophet, but he didn't gain popularity. But Mohammad (s) in clear terms called him a liar. He didn't say, we both claim submission to God and that we are on equal playing field.

The Quran towers above all, and the Bahai Scriptures come no where near it.

??

 

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There's also another feature I didn't mention. The Du'a shows Mohammad (s) is the best of all Prophets and creation. Don't Bahais see their Prophet superior or is this a misconception I have from @InvestigateTruth ?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There's also another feature I didn't mention. The Du'a shows Mohammad (s) is the best of all Prophets and creation. Don't Bahais see their Prophet superior or is this a misconception I have from @InvestigateTruth ?

As there is only One God, there is only One Manifestation of God.
"Manifestation of God" is a spiritual Reality. This Spiritual Reality, the Manifestation of God, is the best of creation!
The Manifestation of God, once appeard in the person of Moses. Another time appeared in the person of Jesus, another time on the person of Muhammad.
Thus, when it is said, Muhammad is the best of creation, this statement is true about Jesus as well, because it is not talking about the body of Muhammad or His personality. It is talking about the Manifestation of God, who is the Spiritual Reality of any of the Prophets.
Consider a Mirror, facing toward the Sun. If the Mirror is perfectly clean, you can see the image of the Sun in the Mirror.
The Mirror is the individual Soul of a Prophet. The Sun, is God. And the image and light appeared in the Mirror is, the Manifestation of the God.
Another analogy is, in the Verse of Ligh in Quran. The Prophet is created in such a way, that, Light of God is fully appear within Him.
Thus, this is the unity of Prophets. All show fully the Image of God.
All reflect the Will of God to the world, and make the world enlightened.
But, God's Will is manifested in every Age, according to the conditions and requirements of the Age. His light is manifested according to the level of Understanding of the people living in the Age.
Hence, when Muhammad came, Quran was revealed. It was the best guidance for people in that Age. The teachings of Muhammad were the highest level and best for its own Period.
Everytime, Manifestation of God appeared, He informed people, about the next Manifestation to come.
Jesus, said this, by saying I will come again. Muhammad said this, by saying, the Qaim will come. Other Manifestations such as Buddha spoke of another Buddha.
But if you look at the adherents of these Holy Manifestations, you see, for a reason, all of them, consider their own Religion as the Final.
It reminds me of this Hadith:
بدأ الإسلام غريبًا وسيعود غريبًا، فطوبى للغرباء

Its meaning is, In the beginning the Religion of God (Islam) was alone, and when Qiam comes, it shall be alone. Happy are the minority of believers.

"And if you obey most of those upon the earth, they will mislead you from the way of Allah. They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying." 6:116

It is always, a minority of people who are considered as true believers and follower of God. The majority are not. This has been always the case, and shall be.

 

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It says he was made superior over all Prophets though and the best of those who were ever chosen by God. Per Quran, Prophets are chosen before this world came to be and took a covenant. It's saying he is the best of all.

 

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this statement is true about Jesus as well,

Khaythama reported that Abu Ja‘far (Imam Muhammad al-Baqir) said, “…O Khaythama! There will come a time for the people when they will not know who is Allah and His unity until Dajjal appears and Jesus the son of Mary, may peace and blessings be with both of them, descends from the sky, and Allah will kill Dajjal by his hands and a man that is from our House will pray with the people. Do you not know that Jesus will pray behind us, although he is a prophet? Beware that we are better than him.”

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It says he was made superior over all Prophets though and the best of those who were ever chosen by God.

i answered this in previous post.

consider two identical Mirrors.
One of them is placed toward the Sun in the mid Noon summer time.
another placed toward the Sun, earlier time, or during winter.

both Mirrors show the image and light of the Sun. But which mirror Shows a fuller image of the Sun?
the Mirror that reflected the Sun at mid noon in Summer.
Some Prophets Manifested a fuller image and light of God. This has to do with the circumstances and Time. Not with the Mirror. You cannot say, this Mirror is better than that Mirror.
when it is said Muhammad is better than previous Prophets, this is with respect to Manifesting light according to the conditions of time, not that the individuality of Muhammad is better.
Understanding the Scriptures, is not like reading a literal story Book. It is very much deeper than that to take it literal.
You have heard how Christians say, Jesus is the only way?!

Per Quran, Prophets are chosen before this world came to be and took a covenant. It's saying he is the best of all.

And call to mind when We took from the Prophets their covenant, and from thee, and from Noah and Abraham, and Moses and Jesus, son of Mary, and We indeed, took from them a solemn covenant; (Quran 33:8)

This covenant was taken from Muhammad too, regarding the next Manifestation. The Qaim who is mentioned in all Scriptures and Religions!

 

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i answered this in previous post.

consider two identical Mirrors.
One of them is placed toward the Sun in the mid Noon summer time.
another placed toward the Sun, earlier time, or during winter.

both Mirrors show the image and light of the Sun. But which mirror Shows a fuller image of the Sun?
the Mirror that reflected the Sun at mid noon in Summer.
Some Prophets Manifested a fuller image and light of God. This has to do with the circumstances and Time. Not with the Mirror. You cannot say, this Mirror is better than that Mirror.
when it is said Muhammad is better than previous Prophets, this is with respect to Manifesting light according to the conditions of time, not that the individually of Muhammad is better.
understanding the Scriptures, is not like reading a literal story Book. It is very deep.




And call to mind when We took from the Prophets their covenant, and from thee, and from Noah and Abraham, and Moses and Jesus, son of Mary, and We indeed, took from them a solemn covenant; (Quran 33:8)

This covenant was taken from Muhammad too, regarding the next Manifestation. The Qaim who is mentioned in all Scriptures and Religions!

I will quote the Du'a:

إِلَىٰ انِ ٱنْتَهَيْتَ بِٱلامْرِ إِلَىٰ حَبِيبِكَ وَنَجِيبِكَ مُحَمَّدٍ
ila an intahayta bil-amri ila habibika wa najibika muhammadin
You then ended the matter with Your most-beloved and well-select one, Muhammad,

صَلَّىٰ ٱللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ
salla allahu `alayhi wa alihi
may Allah bless him and his Household.

فَكَانَ كَمَا ٱنْتَجَبْتَهُ
fakana kama intajabtahu
He was—as exactly as You have chosen—

سَيِّدَ مَنْ خَلَقْتَهُ
sayyida man khalaqtahu
the master of all those whom You created,

وَصَفْوَةَ مَنِ ٱصْطَفَيْتَهُ
wa safwata man istafaytahu
the best of all those whom You selected,

وَافْضَلَ مَنِ ٱجْتَبَيْتَهُ
wa afdala man ijtabaytahu
the most favorite of all those whom You pointed out,

وَاكْرَمَ مَنِ ٱعْتَمَدْتَهُ
wa akrama man i`tamadtahu
and the noblest of all those on whom You decided.

قَدَّمْتَهُ عَلَىٰ انْبِيَائِكَ
qaddamtahu `ala anbiya'ika
So, You preferred him to Your prophets,

وَبَعَثْتَهُ إِِلَىٰ ٱلثَّقَلَيْنِ مِنْ عِبَادِكَ
wa ba`athtahu ila alththaqalayni min `ibadika
sent him to the two dependents (men and jinn) from Your servants,

وَاوْطَاتَهُ مَشَارِقَكَ وَمَغَارِبَكَ
wa awta'tahu mashariqaka wa magharibaka
enabled him to tread on the east and the west of Your lands,


The impression is that he is the best. Not that he exceeds in manifesting light for his time.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Khaythama reported that Abu Ja‘far (Imam Muhammad al-Baqir) said, “…O Khaythama! There will come a time for the people when they will not know who is Allah and His unity until Dajjal appears and Jesus the son of Mary, may peace and blessings be with both of them, descends from the sky, and Allah will kill Dajjal by his hands and a man that is from our House will pray with the people. Do you not know that Jesus will pray behind us, although he is a prophet? Beware that we are better than him.”

First the Mahdi, the 12th One comes who is from lineage of Muhammad through Fatimah. Christ at this time, is a follower of Mahdi. This is the meaning of "Christ prays behind the Mahdi".
Then Mahdi rules for 7 years and is martyred.
After that, Christ Rules and all follow Him.

 

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First the Mahdi, the 12th One comes who is from lineage of Muhammad through Fatimah. Christ at this time, is a follower of Mahdi. This is the meaning of "Christ prays behind the Mahdi".
Then Mahdi rules for 7 years and is martyred.
After that, Christ Rules and all follow Him.

This is all following ambiguity. Imam Hussain (a) says what allowed evil people to rule the Muslims was they were following ambiguity while there exists among the clear proofs. This out of love of dunya.

Your epistemology is all build on doubtful things. None of it on a sure certain foundation.

You throw away the clear for unclear. And abandon many hadiths for one here and there.

People who abandon what is certain for what is doubtful perish by their own hands. Nothing Quran could've said more to guide them nor Ahlulbayt (a).

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The impression is that he is the best. Not that he exceeds in manifesting light for his time.

Yes, that is the impression.
There is a wisdom.
The wisdom is the same, that Jesus said, No one comes to Father except through Me. He did not say, after Me, Muhammad comes, in the excplicit way.
Why Not? He could easily say that, clearly. He could say that, an Arab prophet, comes with a Book called the Quran. Why did not He say that?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This is all following ambiguity. Imam Hussain (a) says what allowed evil people to rule the Muslims was they were following ambiguity while there exists among the clear proofs. This out of love of dunya.

Your epistemology is all build on doubtful things. None of it on a sure certain foundation.

You throw away the clear for unclear. And abandon many hadiths for one here and there.

People who abandon what is certain for what is doubtful perish by their own hands. Nothing Quran could've said more to guide them nor Ahlulbayt (a).

No, then you must follow Jesus, instead of Muhammad. He clearly said, He is the Truth, and only way. Why you dont see this as clear, and instead follow ambiguity?

 

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. He did not say, after Me, Muhammad comes, in the excplicit way.

He did say it which is why Trinity needed to be invented to make unclear. And comforter is a recent translation, before it was translated more closer to glorified/admired, which roughly is same as praised/Mohammad.

"Periklytos" is "Muhammad" in Greek.

There is a clear concept of Welayat in the Gospels, this is why he emphasizes that John/Yahya (a) was killed before him to emphasize that Elijah (a) has returned along with the fact, Jesus (a) is leaving and coming back.

Isa (a) said he was the light of the world so long as he was in the world, and the spirit of truth is that light, and so Isa (a) was the holy spirit. And so it's clear someone with the station of spirit of truth is coming and he made it clear.

This is why trinity was needed by Satan and his hidden society.

Simon (a) was a successor of Isa (a) but he was not pre-chosen by God like Prophets (a). Elijah (a) was the hidden guide and leader who can bring signs in terms of miracles and guide through his light on earth, while Simon (a) was more like the four saffirs.

The general leadership of Simon (a) is important but had to be seen to be volatile so that people hold the people taking that station accountable. As they didn't, they eventually left Tawhid even.

IF you keep in mind the spirit is a position by all chosen ones, as expanded by Paul that even emphasizes on leadership transferred from such a person to Ibrahim (a).

It's clear that the position of the holy spirit, from Adam (a) till now, is with a person, chosen by God. Mohammad (S) prophecy is clear there, and some where else too. In another place, Jesus (a) says "he is not the Prophet", so there was "the Prophet" that was expected to come.

 

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No, then you must follow Jesus, instead of Muhammad.

Who follows Jesus (a)? Does this mean making him into an equal of God?

Christians see following Jesus (a) = following their Church.

I see it as Simon (a) and the Church had to carry flag till it was passed onto Mohammad (s).

I see myself with Adam (a) if I am with Ahlulbayt (a). I am child of Ibrahim (a) and Adam (a) if I'm born out of the light of the Imam of time.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Who follows Jesus (a)? Does this mean making him into an equal of God?

If you follow your own standard, then it is clear that, as Jesus said, Just believe Jesus is the Messiah, and that He is the Son who died for your sin, and was resurrected. Just believe Jesus is the only way, as He said. It is clear and simple. Then you get to heaven.

Christians see following Jesus (a) = following their Church.

I see it as Simon (a) and the Church had to carry flag till it was passed onto Mohammad (s).

I see myself with Adam (a) if I am with Ahlulbayt (a). I am child of Ibrahim (a) and Adam (a) if I'm born out of the light of the Imam of time.

These ideas that you are saying, are from Islam to justify their religion. You must not even look at Islam. Remember, clear and simple: Jesus is the only way to Father. No one comes to Father except through Jesus. Therefore, It is obvious, that Islam cannot be from God.
I am just showing your own standard and logic. If you were born into a Christian family, you would have thought this way! Why wouldn't you? If you were born a Christian, why would you believe that Muhammad was promised by Jesus, when you cannot find any clear such statement from Jesus in the Bible?

 

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1. In my view, This is about immediate successorship. There is no immediate prophet after Muhammad's passing. The Mahdi Himself is the Promise of meeting with God لقاء الله

Salam

Why doesn't Rasool (s) say "except there is no Prophet after me until the Mahdi"

To me it's clear that Rasool when he states "except there is no Prophet after me", the Prophet (s) is not deceiving and would have clarified it to "until the Mahdi" if the Mahdi (s) was a Nabi.