• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Dualism

Marco19

Researcher
Dear friends, El-Majusi hope you are here and will continue our nice sharing thoughts, and through you we learn more about Zoroastrianism.

I'd like to start with some classical questions, like what is the meaning of life, why Ahura Mazda created us... but beside to those, i'd like to know how and why Ahura Mazda and Ahriman appeared?

for me it's interesting to know the existence of Ahriman, and if it goes to infinite, then how comes it will vanish some day...

i don't want to ask many questions, rather prefer to focus on one case.

Thank You.
 

El_Majusi

Member
Hello Marco!
Why Ahura Mazda created us? Hmm... I will tell this an other time, if you don't mind. The Gathas, and even the whole of the Avesta, unlike the Torah and the Bible, do not tell the story of creation, at least not progressively: that lets us think what we want about the origins of species. For example, I am a partisan of the evolution theory. The reason of that "absence" is that the sacred Avesta isn't meant to answer to material questions, but rather spiritual ones. This is the reason why there are so few rules concerning daily life in the Avesta.
Ahura Mazda created light first, as it is said the Holy Gathas: "Ahura Mazda's First Thought blazed into myriads of sparks of light and filled the entire heavens.[...]" (31:7). As you see they are 31 Yasnas before that, and four Gathic Yasnas. I think this is the description of the suns. I heard from someone who loves science etc. that in the very beginning of the Universe the first thing that appeared was light, through the creation of suns which were amounts of gases.
Ahura Mazda is "First and Last of all Creation", as repeats Ashu Zarathushtra a few times in the Gathas. I do not know how It "appeared", how It came; and no one knows. If you come in a room and see someone who's already here, how would you know how he has come before you? That's the first point, the second is that in Zoroastrianism, we do not make, unlike Muslims and most of Christians (for example), a clear separation between God, Ahura Mazda, and the entire Universe. I read in the Bah'ai overview in this forum (which was very interesting), that (sorry for the long quote):

"So perfect and comprehensive is His creation that no mind or heart, however keen or pure, can ever grasp the nature of the most insignificant of His creatures; much less fathom the mystery of Him Who is the Day Star of Truth, Who is the invisible and unknowable Essence..."

and further


"All that the sages and mystics have said or written have never exceeded, nor can they ever hope to exceed, the limitations to which man's finite mind hath been strictly subjected. To whatever heights the mind of the most exalted of men may soar, however great the depths which the detached and understanding heart can penetrate, such mind and heart can never transcend that which is the creature of their own thoughts.[...]"


That, is not the Zoroastrian point of view. We think Ahura Mazda is within us, within all the creation, within the Yazata (the "worthy of worship beings"), within all the Universe. Of course Ahura Mazda is not in the evil.

What is the kind of existence of Ahriman is subject to debate among Zoroastrian thinkers and philosophers of all times. Is it alive? Is it a physical being? A mind?
Ahriman is a deformation of "Angra Mainyu" which is in the Gathas. It means "angry mind" -yes, and both those words ("angra" and "mainyu") have the same origin as the English words. "Mind", for example, has the same origin as "mentalité" in French, etc. Zarathushtra tells us there is the Best Mind (Vohu Manangha, Vohu Mana), and the Worst, (Angra Mainyu, Angra Manangha). In the latter Avesta Angra Mainyu has become an anti-Yazat. In the Gathas it is, nevertheless, considered as one principle: the evil principle.
I will quote the great sages who wrote the Dadestan-i Denig ("Religious Decisions") in the 9th century after Jesus Christ:
"1. The eighteenth question is that which you ask thus: When the souls of the righteous and the souls of the wicked go out to the spirits, will it then be possible for them to see Ohrmazd and Ahriman, or not?
2. The reply is this, that concerning Ahriman it is said that his is no material existence. [...]" (19:1-2). They clearly give their point of view, which is: Ahriman is evil; but no devil. Does evil need to have a material existence to be? This I ask you.

How evil appeared is an interesting question, which can easily be answered, quoting the Gathas. There is an entire chapter (Yasna) of the Gathas which is called "The Origin of Evil". Let me quote it:

"Now in the beginning these two mentalities, the twins, revealed themselves in vision
as the better and the bad in thought, word and deed. The wise and the generous chose correctly between these two, but the unwise and the mean did not." 30:3.

"And so when these two mentalities first came together, they established life (gaya) and non-life (ajyaiti). The worst life will be for the Followers of the Lie, but the Supreme Mind of Ahura Mazda will illumine the Followers of Truth." 30:4.
We understand that the good mentality, (Vohu Mana, which is linked to Ahura Mazda) is linked to Truth, while the worst (Angra Mainyu) is linked to the Lie. It is the origin of the hate that every true Zoroastrian feels against the act of lying.

Now about the Followers of both:

"The Daevas (Devils) (and their worshippers) did not discriminate wisely
between these two. Confusion came upon them as they debated,
and so they chose the Worst Mind.
Straightaway, they fell headlong into Wrath. The life of man sickened." 30:6.
Here we do discover that the essence of Daevas and Men is not evil: but Daevas and some men chose evil (in thought word and deed).

"Then the Sovereignty of Ahura came to the just man
through the Good Mind and Truth[...]." 30:7.

I think it is enough to explain a lot, if you have questions about that part, do not hesitate to ask!

Sorry dear Marco "of Ahriman, and if it goes to infinite, then how comes it will vanish some day..." I have not understood, could you rephrase your question, please?

I understood your main point has been dualism. But Zoroastrian dualism has a special aspect, look: the main principles, the only principles are dual (life and death, lie and truth, =good and evil), but in higher spheres, the divine spheres, Ahura Mazda is higher than Angra Mainyu, than Ahriman. Angra Mainyu equals (in power) Vohu Mana, but not Ahura Mazda. The duality is thus a semi-duality. If you want to understand it more accurately you've got to look at the essences in Zoroastrianism.
 

Marco19

Researcher
Dear Majusi,
i'm really happy that you are responding with references, which make your comments more powerful.

- it's nice quoting from the Bahai faith, but as you've already said it's not the way as you describe Ahura Mazda.
IMO Bahai is pure Monotheism, Zoroastrian from your explanation seems to be more like Panentheism. what do you think?

i'd like first to focus on the idea of Dualism, because your definition seems more like the classical Zoroastrians (Persian, Parsi and Neo) which denies Dualism.
i admit that my knowledge in Zoroastrianism is close to zero, and i'm still in the beginning level.
so plz correct my mistakes and provide references as much as possible :)

Dualism IMO means having two equal powers. but your description is against this.
you have mentioned that Ahriman is going to vanish, and has no equal power to Ahura Mazda, and Ahura Mazda is the first and last creation

ok, fine.
let me show you what i've read in the Ghatas, then we continue our discussion:

in Yasna 30:3 says:
Now the two primal Spirits, who reveal themselves in vision as Twins, are the Better and the Bad, in thought and word and action. And between these two the wise ones chose aright, the foolish not so.

my understanding to the text above is that both powers are equal, as they represent the positive and negative.

another interesting concept is in the following verse Yasna 30:4
And when these twain Spirits came together in the beginning, they created Life and Not-Life, and that at the last Worst Existence shall be to the followers of the Lie, but the Best Existence to him that follows Right.

again here my understanding is that two equal powers (as 30:3 says they are equal) gathered and created the existence.
so my question: how comes that Ahura Mazda created all things? and alone without Ahriman? it's obvious they did it together, didn't they?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ahura Mazda is higher than Angra Mainyu, than Ahriman. Angra Mainyu equals (in power) Vohu Mana, but not Ahura Mazda.
The duality is thus a semi-duality. If you want to understand it more accurately you've got to look at the essences in Zoroastrianism.

ok, so the meaning of the twin in Yansa 30:3 is semi? anyways, i'll wait your respond at this point...
but let me add one more sentence:
if you justify that Ahriman is weaker than Ahura Mazda, then my curiosity wouldn't stop till i understand this:
Ahura is Good spirit, Ahrima is Bad spirit, how comes one is stronger than the other?
 
Last edited:

El_Majusi

Member
Dear Marco,
what you point is very interesting, and it needs a long explanation, this is why only my first message cannot make it easily understandable- it needs a thorough explanation.
I don't know if it's pantheism, but it has links with polytheism. We have a few gods, and a lot of yazatas, of whom the highest and greatest is Ahura Mazda. But Ahura Mazda is not separated from them. At least, not completely.

What I wanted to explain is that dualism exists, is true. "Things are either of good or bad essence in this world of ours, nothing else prevails, no other essence is possible". Ahura Mazda is still higher than Ahriman. Ahriman is evil, represents badness. It is no god: there is no god of evil. There is no need to worship Ahriman: as soon as you do evil, he (it) is worshipped.
Now we enter in the domain of subtlety.
The Will of Ahura Mazda and the will of Angra Mainyu are different in essence. Ahura Mazda is creator, accumulator, adder, expender: that's Spenta Mainyu, the creating mentality, the creative one. Angra Mainyu is destructive.
Ahura Mazda creates more, but Ahriman is more insidious.


"again here my understanding is that two equal powers (as 30:3 says they are equal) gathered and created the existence.
so my question: how comes that Ahura Mazda created all things? and alone without Ahriman? it's obvious they did it together, didn't they?"
Your understanding is correct for the first part; two equal powers. They did not gather as I said, Zarathushtra tells us there is a clear distinction between them both (as it is said, and I thought I quoted this): "At fravaxshya angheush mainyu pouruye yaya spanya uiti mravat yém angrem: noît na mana noît sengha noît xratavo naêda varana noit uxdha naeda shyaothna hacainté"
"I will now tell you, about the two Primal Spirits, twins, of whom the more benevolent addressed the hostile one: "Neither our thoughts, nor doctrines, nor directive intelligence, nor preferences, neither words nor deeds, neither consciences nor souls agree". 45:2 (translation by Piloo Nanavutty).

The powers established life and non-life: they did not create it. A logical spirit can deduce that it is by establishing life that Spenta Mainyu established the possibility of non-life, and vice-versa.

I think there is a point of view that can help you to understand everything in that logic:
Spenta Mainyu is linked to a higher spirit: Ahura Mazda; but Angra Mainyu has nothing else than itself. They are equal in power, but not in help. This is the reason why Ahriman will be defeated, when men will all be good.
"Ahura is Good spirit, Ahriman is Bad spirit, how comes one is stronger than the other?" I think I've answered you, though I may not be clear. Spenta Mainyu, good essence, is no stronger than the evil essence, but Ahura Mazda is Creator, Highest one, Strongest one. It has no opponent at his measure, in Its Sphere, at Its level. It is very spiritual, very essential.

I hope it is clearer. Please, anyone can write here, ask questions etc. I would be glad to see they are other interested persons than Marco19 whose curiosity is a fantastic challenge, for me and other Zoroastrians!
 

nocturnalavalonian

Seeker of Knowledge
With regards to the creation, many of us within the more liberal end of Christianity see the truth of our scriptures as being moral truth rather than historical truth, so the important aspect for us is that we live in a universe created by God, but we continue to believe in evolution and so on, but we see the guiding hand of God behind the process. Is there the same variance of interpretation in Zoroastrianism? As a Unitarian I am keen to learn the wisdom in all faiths, not just our own.
With regards to dualism I have heard it said that our own Christian concept of the war between God and Satan may have roots in Zoroastrian dualist influences. Do you believe this is possible?
 

El_Majusi

Member
"[...]but we continue to believe in evolution and so on, but we see the guiding hand of God behind the process." It is my personal opinion. God created life and with Its Insight inspired the evolution, but not in all its details. Man could have had two arses behind the legs and an eye in the belly, birds could have stayed fishes or dinosaurs, it wouldn't have worried It.
But they are some creationists amongst Zoroastrians. The misunderstanding is linked to the epithet of Ahura Mazda: datar, meaning "creator". And yet It made both Light and Matter. "Datar" also means "giver".

(About Dualism)
There are a lot of misinterpreted notions of Zoroastrianism in monotheistic faiths. It may be one of them.
 

nocturnalavalonian

Seeker of Knowledge
I fully agree with that El Majusi, personally I think God and the Devil are probably two sides of the same coin. I don't think the Christian God/Devil concept is particularly Zoroastrian, just that some early Christians may have been influenced by the dualist concept, hearing it second and third hand from traders and so on. With evolution I think the "Divine Spark" exists in all life, but once God laid down the Laws of Nature, he probably just lets it roll and sees where it goes. However since I believe God set the rules in the first place, he may have put built in limits as to what direction evolution could go in, after all he presumably created the whole timeline as well, not just the actual stuff.
 
Last edited:

El_Majusi

Member
Yes precisely.
God and the Devil are, i.m.o. not the two sides of the same coin, rather two coins, one wanting to create more coins (God) and the other wanting to destroy coins (Evil).
 

Marco19

Researcher
Majusi, i wonder why Zarathusht didn't get rid of all ancient pagan deities? rather than adapting them...
was it the influence of those goddess in Persian tradition?
well, i'm not familiar with all names... but at least i know the status of Anahita, who remained a powerfull goddess with healing attributes.
 

El_Majusi

Member
Hello Marco!
Zarathushtra himself didn't name those deities in his work, the Gathas. As the Zoroastrian religion isn't rejective, it doesn't repulse other things, it is tolerant, it has integrated those deities which had a definite specificity. Mithra is the god of the taking of the oaths, for example. But as they all are parts of Ahura Mazda, they are part of the Unity of God. Yes, we are associators, indeed.
 
Top