Dune 2

[Watchmen]

Without getting into details at this time, I’ll just say I absolutely loved Dune 2 (and the first one).

 

[libre]

I enjoyed part 2, definitely my favourite sci-fi I've seen in the theatre and it's not even close.

That said, I agree completely with this critical review in the Washington Post, which is worth a read:https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/10/28/dune-muslim-influences-erased/

Trying to avoid Herbert’s apparent insensitivity, the filmmakers actively subdued most elements of Islam, the Middle East and North Africa (MENA). The new movie treats religion, ecology, capitalism and colonialism as broad abstractions, stripped of particularity.
...
The film’s approach backfires: In justifying the film’s exclusion of Muslim and MENA creatives, it truly relegates “Dune’s” Muslimness to exotic aesthetics. The resulting film is both more Orientalist than the novel and less daring.

Interested to hear what some of the Muslims on the forum may think of the film.

 

[idea]

If you don't think so, then you haven't understood the difference between the Harkonnens and the Atreides. The setup was essentially feudal, yes, but I know which I would prefer to be ruled by. Incidentally, I'm not sure that "invader" is an accurate term. Arrakis was almost uninhabitable and didn't have a "native" population as such. The inhabitants were brought there as labor. (Though I'm not sure it says how the Fremen got there. They weren't native to the planet, certainly).

The Harkonnens had ruled Arrakis for a long time and got rich off the spice, which was about the only reason anyone would bother with the place. Their "ownership" of the planet was more a lease from the Emporer. That was taken away and it was transferred to the Atreides, but it all turned out to be a trap. I'm not sure I see it as colonialism, more the shifting of power within an existing empire.

It seems like the Fremen were meant to represent the native indigenous population, while everyone else was just there for the spice.

The best scenerio is for Fremen to rule, Fremen to control the spice, and no one else.

"No one really lived there, it is a desert"... hmmm... sounds like some current events... People do live in the desert.

Aesop's tales, fantasy movies - it is a way to introduce real mindsets, to create bias for real events. Truth in fiction.

 

[Wandering Monk]

The Outsider leading the indigenous: shades of Lawrence of Arabia.

 

[idea]

The Fremen are not analogous to American Indigenous but they are strongly analogous to middle-eastern indigenous. Fremen descend from the Zensunni Wanderers who came fleeing, were forced relocated, or who settled of their own free will by the guild (there are numerous contradictory stories that suggest the history is from unreliable narrators, go figure.)

They're basically stand-ins for Bedouin. And the story of the Fremen is getting caught up in a literal struggle between feudal colonists over oil spice, where the established imperial presence was hunting them for sport and training of their soldiers while overtapping natural resources to the detriment of sustaining their brutally difficult but sustainable life.

Even Paul states that the Jihad was avoidable if he died or removed himself by joining the guild, but those were sacrifices he wasn't willing to make. And, at least in subsequent books, he was told frankly that he did *not* see every possibility, by his son. He was just convinced he did. And in fact created the future he wanted to avoid because he thought it was in his nature to take charge (buying into his own artificial mythos.)

Paul was the crystallization to the fanatic totalitarianism set up for him to take the reins for.

Perhaps it helps to know a little of the author...
Frank Herbert - Wikipedia
In Chapterhouse: Dune, he wrote:
"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a condition to which they are quickly addicted."

The author was a news guy, opposed the Vietnam war, and grew mushrooms...


**Yes, let's hear what the Muslims have to say about Dune, its version of an evil Mahdi who kills most of the people who follow and join the Jihad... and the women in their artistic black hijabs...

Mahdi - Wikipedia
The Mahdi (Arabic: ٱلْمَهْدِيّ, romanized: al-Mahdī, lit. 'the Guided') is a prominent figure in Islamic eschatology who is believed to appear at the End of Time to rid the world of evil and injustice.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Anyone excited for Dune Part 2?

I wanted to see it. On Wed of (I think last week) I checked to see what movies were playing, and it looked like Dune 2 was out. I went to the theater, but it wasn't going to be in until Friday. The theater or google tricked me somehow or the dates were not right for my area; but I made plans and headed into town. I was already out with my movie gift card when I found Dune 2 wasn't playing, so we watched Aquaman instead. Now I think its going to be a while before I go see another film.

Its a fine print problem. When they say the film is in theaters it usually isn't. It will be in theaters next week or something like that.

 

[Eddi]

Without getting into details at this time, I’ll just say I absolutely loved Dune 2 (and the first one).

I'm going to see it with a friend!

May watch the original again before that, only watched it once but I remember it was good

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I watched it last night. Enjoyed it a lot.

<Spoilers>I did giggle a bit at the parts removed from the book that would read as too 'Star Wars.' 'X bad guy is your father. Search yourself to see the truth' is right out of the pages of Dune long before Star Wars. Ditto the attack on the shield generators, which was removed for brevity too, I think.

All in all I think the message was pretty well maintained. Paul used artificial myths and religious fervor to enact the vengeance he so desired, using the fremen as a tool. Only when he thought it would spiral into massive war did he pause. But not enough to stop what he was doing. Following heroes and messiahs blindly is bad.

 

[Alien826]

All in all I think the message was pretty well maintained. Paul used artificial myths and religious fervor to enact the vengeance he so desired, using the fremen as a tool. Only when he thought it would spiral into massive war did he pause. But not enough to stop what he was doing. Following heroes and messiahs blindly is bad.

It really is a long time since I read the book, but I'm pretty sure that Paul was aware of where it could all lead early on, and tried to avoid it, but eventually decided that even if he died the crusade would go on in his name. I also think that the extent to which the Fremen (effectively) used Paul to get what they wanted has been largely ignored here. It was pretty much a joint effort. Both sides wanted the same thing (the destruction of the Harkonnens). The Fremen didn't blindly follow Paul, they were going there anyway.

Incidentally, I didn't like any of the following books much. Especially where his son turned himself into a sand worm. Give me a break!

 

[Yerda]

I quite enjoyed it. Definitely worth seeing and better than the first part.

 

[Eddi]

I am going to see it in about 2 hours, looking forward to it.

edit: at theatre now, suffering through the commercials

BTW, can you tell that I am a superfan of the Dune franchise?

View attachment 89222

Nice beard dude

I have one myself

 

[ADigitalArtist]

It really is a long time since I read the book, but I'm pretty sure that Paul was aware of where it could all lead early on, and tried to avoid it, but eventually decided that even if he died the crusade would go on in his name. I also think that the extent to which the Fremen (effectively) used Paul to get what they wanted has been largely ignored here. It was pretty much a joint effort. Both sides wanted the same thing (the destruction of the Harkonnens). The Fremen didn't blindly follow Paul, they were going there anyway.

Incidentally, I didn't like any of the following books much. Especially where his son turned himself into a sand worm. Give me a break!

There were two fremen factions in the book. While both of them wanted to throw off the Harkonnens the northerners wanted basically a land back movement, their culture and beliefs were much more organically evolved from interracting with their environment.

The southerners were not. Their local beliefs and customs replaced by years of intentional corruption by bene gesserit propaganda worming their way into the beliefs, which had been shared by oppression and poverty through Harkonnen rule. All planned.

It was because of that interference that the prophecy package which included following a messiah conquest was introduced. The bene intended for their Prophet (which was supposed to come later) to take up the reigns for.

Basically none of this was organically the fremen's idea. Their oppression and subsequent conversion was planned. Paul just took up the reigns. He *could* have stopped it by breaking the reigns, (taking himself, the spice or the guild out of the equation) but again, he wasn't willing to sacrifice himself or his revenge. It's true that someone else would have taken up the reigns if he tried to stop it after engaging that prophecy, but not before.

This is why Channi was mad. Her entire culture was going to be replaced by artificial religious fanaticism built to use the fremen as tools.

Once again the most intentional messaging of Dune is Paul is not and was never the good guy. He was selfish and violent like any normal human, and doomed millions for it.

Leto 2 took the worm skin because he needed a way to restore spice back to the world after intentionally destroying spice production. He basically became a incubator for a bunch of tiny worm babies so that, at the right time, after a long time of spice control, space expansion was once again possible at the same time power systems were broken down.

This meant humans wouldn't stagnate, but it also wasn't Good Guy plan. Paul even tried to kill Leto 2 because this way meant killing even more people in an even worse tyranny and thought maybe humans just weren't worth the cost of keeping them from destroying themselves.

The good guy plan was probably letting go of the idea of paradise and perfection and just letting humans stagnate to extinction. But the ego of the Bene and Paul's family wouldn't let them do it.

 

[Alien826]

There were two fremen factions in the book. While both of them wanted to throw off the Harkonnens the northerners wanted basically a land back movement, their culture and beliefs were much more organically evolved from interracting with their environment.

The southerners were not. Their local beliefs and customs replaced by years of intentional corruption by bene gesserit propaganda worming their way into the beliefs, which had been shared by oppression and poverty through Harkonnen rule. All planned.

It was because of that interference that the prophecy package which included following a messiah conquest was introduced. The bene intended for their Prophet (which was supposed to come later) to take up the reigns for.

Basically none of this was organically the fremen's idea. Their oppression and subsequent conversion was planned. Paul just took up the reigns. He *could* have stopped it by breaking the reigns, (taking himself, the spice or the guild out of the equation) but again, he wasn't willing to sacrifice himself or his revenge. It's true that someone else would have taken up the reigns if he tried to stop it after engaging that prophecy, but not before.

This is why Channi was mad. Her entire culture was going to be replaced by artificial religious fanaticism built to use the fremen as tools.

Once again the most intentional messaging of Dune is Paul is not and was never the good guy. He was selfish and violent like any normal human, and doomed millions for it.

Leto 2 took the worm skin because he needed a way to restore spice back to the world after intentionally destroying spice production. He basically became a incubator for a bunch of tiny worm babies so that, at the right time, after a long time of spice control, space expansion was once again possible at the same time power systems were broken down.

This meant humans wouldn't stagnate, but it also wasn't Good Guy plan. Paul even tried to kill Leto 2 because this way meant killing even more people in an even worse tyranny and thought maybe humans just weren't worth the cost of keeping them from destroying themselves.

The good guy plan was probably letting go of the idea of paradise and perfection and just letting humans stagnate to extinction. But the ego of the Bene and Paul's family wouldn't let them do it.

It's like I read a different book. Did a lot of this stuff come from subsequent books? In particular I don't remember ....

A Northern faction. There was an area in the north where the Fremen evacuated their old people and children that was raided by the Sardoukar (when Paul's son was killed). Also I remember Paul had some trouble uniting the different Seitches (sp?), so they were obviously not a unified body. The Fremen were bribing the Spacing Guild so they didn't allow satellites to stop the emerging patches of vegetation in the north being seen. That's all I remember about factions.

The Missionaria Protectiva had supposedly planted legends of someone coming from the "outer world" (Lisan al Gaib?) but I thought that was intended to help stranded Bene Gesserits survive, not part of a plan to take over everything. In fact I don't recall the BGs having a master plan beyond their genetic manipulations.

Agreed that the Fremen, under the leadership of the Ecologist (name?), were playing a long game to change the ecology of the planet, and at the same time pursuing a guerilla was against the Harkonnens. And that did change when Paul introduced fighting skills and military leadership, so I suppose their time scale changed but it was always to get rid of the Harkonnens. I don't think their original long term plans were set out clearly in the book, at least directly.

The Kwisatz Hadderach as a military leader? I don't remember anything about that. A superior human, yes, but again the BG didn't seem to be about conquest in that sense. Control and interference, yes.

Chani was mad? What about? Other than her hatred of the Harkonnens which she shared with all Fremen, and her feelings about the death of her son, I don't remember that.

As I write this, I'm thinking more and more that what you say is not in the first book. I read the next two with diminishing attention as more and more silly stuff got introduced. I tried to read "Chapterhouse", but as by then all references to Arrikis had disappeared and it seemed almost like a new story I gave up. Maybe you can pick a subject or two and refer to actual passages from the (original) book? I'm interested enough to pursue this in more detail and will dig out my book as required. It's OK if you don't want to spend the time though.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

It's like I read a different book. Did a lot of this stuff come from subsequent books? In particular I don't remember ....

A Northern faction. There was an area in the north where the Fremen evacuated their old people and children that was raided by the Sardoukar (when Paul's son was killed). Also I remember Paul had some trouble uniting the different Seitches (sp?), so they were obviously not a unified body. The Fremen were bribing the Spacing Guild so they didn't allow satellites to stop the emerging patches of vegetation in the north being seen. That's all I remember about factions.

The Missionaria Protectiva had supposedly planted legends of someone coming from the "outer world" (Lisan al Gaib?) but I thought that was intended to help stranded Bene Gesserits survive, not part of a plan to take over everything. In fact I don't recall the BGs having a master plan beyond their genetic manipulations.

Agreed that the Fremen, under the leadership of the Ecologist (name?), were playing a long game to change the ecology of the planet, and at the same time pursuing a guerilla was against the Harkonnens. And that did change when Paul introduced fighting skills and military leadership, so I suppose their time scale changed but it was always to get rid of the Harkonnens. I don't think their original long term plans were set out clearly in the book, at least directly.

The Kwisatz Hadderach as a military leader? I don't remember anything about that. A superior human, yes, but again the BG didn't seem to be about conquest in that sense. Control and interference, yes.

Chani was mad? What about? Other than her hatred of the Harkonnens which she shared with all Fremen, and her feelings about the death of her son, I don't remember that.

As I write this, I'm thinking more and more that what you say is not in the first book. I read the next two with diminishing attention as more and more silly stuff got introduced. I tried to read "Chapterhouse", but as by then all references to Arrikis had disappeared and it seemed almost like a new story I gave up. Maybe you can pick a subject or two and refer to actual passages from the (original) book? I'm interested enough to pursue this in more detail and will dig out my book as required. It's OK if you don't want to spend the time though.

Nah that's alright. I moved a couple months ago and had to donate most of my books before the move sadly. So I don't have my series anymore. If you haven't though, I highly recommend reading or watching some of the Frank Herbert interviews. He talks a lot about the story and why it went the way it did, and why the overall message is 'don't trust heroes, you'll probably be among the millions it goes bad for.'

Incidentally, Children of Dune was my favorite of the series, the stuff in it was not silly to me and way more poignant about what and where and who should decide sacrifices should be 'for the greater good.' And it ties up character arcs in a way the first book just doesn't do on its own. Dune was always meant to be a trilogy. Though God Emperor and Chapterhouse were pretty far afield, they still both talk a lot about interesting philosophy.

 

[Alien826]

Nah that's alright. I moved a couple months ago and had to donate most of my books before the move sadly. So I don't have my series anymore. If you haven't though, I highly recommend reading or watching some of the Frank Herbert interviews. He talks a lot about the story and why it went the way it did, and why the overall message is 'don't trust heroes, you'll probably be among the millions it goes bad for.'

Incidentally, Children of Dune was my favorite of the series, the stuff in it was not silly to me and way more poignant about what and where and who should decide sacrifices should be 'for the greater good.' And it ties up character arcs in a way the first book just doesn't do on its own. Dune was always meant to be a trilogy. Though God Emperor and Chapterhouse were pretty far afield, they still both talk a lot about interesting philosophy.

OK I'll look for some interviews.

When I say "silly" I'm talking about things like "axolotl tanks" and the already mentioned sand worm man. Plus I think I was very engaged with Paul as the central figure in the story and the first thing that happens is that he gets blinded and then killed off, to be replaced by a number of much less compelling characters.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion, interesting.

On a parallel note, I'm playing a game called Helldivers 2 which has been attacked as presenting an Earth "empire" that is essentially fascist. It's true, it is. But the critics don't seem to understand that it is intentionally so, and is a take off on the Starship Troopers movie which itself was mocking the (perceived) fascism of the book of the same title by Robert Heinlein. It's a fun game btw, if you are into video games at all.