Duties of the Messiah (Primarily Aimed at Christians)

[Trailblazer]

I mean things like "coming in the clouds" means "veils".

Did you ever read what Baha'u'llah said about the meaning of heaven and clouds? I have the full write-up posted on my forum in a thread entitled Son of Man Coming in the Clouds (11/18/14) and that dates back to when me and Brian2 (who went by another handle on my forum) were discussing the return of Christ. If you want to read it on my forum you can ask me for the link but below are the highlights of those posts, from The Kitáb-i-Íqán

And now, concerning His words: “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven.” By these words it is meant that when the sun of the heavenly teachings hath been eclipsed, the stars of the divinely-established laws have fallen, and the moon of true knowledge—the educator of mankind—hath been obscured; when the standards of guidance and felicity have been reversed, and the morn of truth and righteousness hath sunk in night, then shall the sign of the Son of man appear in heaven. By “heaven” is meant the visible heaven, inasmuch as when the hour draweth nigh on which the Day-star of the heaven of justice shall be made manifest, and the Ark of divine guidance shall sail upon the sea of glory, a star will appear in the heaven, heralding unto its people the advent of that most great light. In like manner, in the invisible heaven a star shall be made manifest who, unto the peoples of the earth, shall act as a harbinger of the break of that true and exalted Morn. These twofold signs, in the visible and the invisible heaven, have announced the Revelation of each of the Prophets of God, as is commonly believed........

And now regarding His words, that the Son of man shall “come in the clouds of heaven.”
By the term “clouds” is meant those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Even as He hath revealed in the verse already quoted: “As oft as an Apostle cometh unto you with that which your souls desire not, ye swell with pride, accusing some of being impostors and slaying others.” 31 These “clouds” signify, in one sense, the annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations, the repeal of rituals and customs current amongst men, the exalting of the illiterate faithful above the learned opposers of the Faith. In another sense, they mean the appearance of that immortal Beauty in the image of mortal man, with such human limitations as eating and drinking, poverty and riches, glory and abasement, sleeping and waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and cause them to turn away. All such veils are symbolically referred to as “clouds.”

These are the “clouds” that cause the heavens of the knowledge and understanding of all that dwell on earth to be cloven asunder. Even as He hath revealed: “On that day shall the heaven be cloven by the clouds.” 32 Even as the clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, so do these things hinder the souls of men from recognizing the light of the divine Luminary.

Even if there was no other proof of Baha'u'llah other than what He wrote, that would suffice for me. There were believers in the history of the Faith who were naysayers that became believers just from reading The Kitáb-i-Íqán.

Good for you. But I would have believed you if you said you didn't have the time and desire... 'Cause you know it's going to open a big can of slimy worms. Oh, and there was a "dark day" today in the Bay Area. How's the smoke your way?

Thanks for taking me at my word. I always try to keep my promises.
I do not mind slimy worms because I know how to handle them. I still have the link to your post with those verses sitting in a Word document so I won't forget. Unfortunately I keep getting sidelined by other posts but will get to it as soon as I have time...

There are a lot of forest fires up here, I heard that on the news, but so far I am not seeing or smelling any smoke.... You know, a lot of what is going on with fires and hurricanes and such could be related to the calamities. The local Baha'is sent out an e-mail on what is in the Writings on the calamities a few weeks ago. It is very sobering. I am tangential, so that just reminded me of a letter from Shoghi Effendi, addressed to the Baha'is in 1941..

“Dear friends! The powerful operations of this titanic upheaval are comprehensible to none except such as have recognized the claims of both Bahá’u’lláh and the Báb. Their followers know full well whence it comes, and what it will ultimately lead to. Though ignorant of how far it will reach, they clearly recognize its genesis, are aware of its direction, acknowledge its necessity, observe confidently its mysterious processes, ardently pray for the mitigation of its severity, intelligently labor to assuage its fury, and anticipate, with undimmed vision, the consummation of the fears and the hopes it must necessarily engender.”
The Promised Day Is Come, p. 4

 

[CG Didymus]

Did you ever read what Baha'u'llah said about the meaning of heaven and clouds? I have the full write-up posted on my forum in a thread entitled Son of Man Coming in the Clouds (11/18/14) and that dates back to when me and Brian2 (who went by another handle on my forum) were discussing the return of Christ. If you want to read it on my forum you can ask me for the link but below are the highlights of those posts, from The Kitáb-i-Íqán

And now, concerning His words: “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven.” By these words it is meant that when the sun of the heavenly teachings hath been eclipsed, the stars of the divinely-established laws have fallen, and the moon of true knowledge—the educator of mankind—hath been obscured; when the standards of guidance and felicity have been reversed, and the morn of truth and righteousness hath sunk in night, then shall the sign of the Son of man appear in heaven. By “heaven” is meant the visible heaven, inasmuch as when the hour draweth nigh on which the Day-star of the heaven of justice shall be made manifest, and the Ark of divine guidance shall sail upon the sea of glory, a star will appear in the heaven, heralding unto its people the advent of that most great light. In like manner, in the invisible heaven a star shall be made manifest who, unto the peoples of the earth, shall act as a harbinger of the break of that true and exalted Morn. These twofold signs, in the visible and the invisible heaven, have announced the Revelation of each of the Prophets of God, as is commonly believed........

And now regarding His words, that the Son of man shall “come in the clouds of heaven.”
By the term “clouds” is meant those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Even as He hath revealed in the verse already quoted: “As oft as an Apostle cometh unto you with that which your souls desire not, ye swell with pride, accusing some of being impostors and slaying others.” 31 These “clouds” signify, in one sense, the annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations, the repeal of rituals and customs current amongst men, the exalting of the illiterate faithful above the learned opposers of the Faith. In another sense, they mean the appearance of that immortal Beauty in the image of mortal man, with such human limitations as eating and drinking, poverty and riches, glory and abasement, sleeping and waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and cause them to turn away. All such veils are symbolically referred to as “clouds.”

These are the “clouds” that cause the heavens of the knowledge and understanding of all that dwell on earth to be cloven asunder. Even as He hath revealed: “On that day shall the heaven be cloven by the clouds.” 32 Even as the clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, so do these things hinder the souls of men from recognizing the light of the divine Luminary.

Even if there was no other proof of Baha'u'llah other than what He wrote, that would suffice for me. There were believers in the history of the Faith who were naysayers that became believers just from reading The Kitáb-i-Íqán.

Thanks for taking me at my word. I always try to keep my promises.
I do not mind slimy worms because I know how to handle them. I still have the link to your post with those verses sitting in a Word document so I won't forget. Unfortunately I keep getting sidelined by other posts but will get to it as soon as I have time...

There are a lot of forest fires up here, I heard that on the news, but so far I am not seeing or smelling any smoke.... You know, a lot of what is going on with fires and hurricanes and such could be related to the calamities. The local Baha'is sent out an e-mail on what is in the Writings on the calamities a few weeks ago. It is very sobering. I am tangential, so that just reminded me of a letter from Shoghi Effendi, addressed to the Baha'is in 1941..

“Dear friends! The powerful operations of this titanic upheaval are comprehensible to none except such as have recognized the claims of both Bahá’u’lláh and the Báb. Their followers know full well whence it comes, and what it will ultimately lead to. Though ignorant of how far it will reach, they clearly recognize its genesis, are aware of its direction, acknowledge its necessity, observe confidently its mysterious processes, ardently pray for the mitigation of its severity, intelligently labor to assuage its fury, and anticipate, with undimmed vision, the consummation of the fears and the hopes it must necessarily engender.”
The Promised Day Is Come, p. 4

As improbable as it seems, the NT and Revelation is still lining up close enough to how Christians see them... that the trials and tribulations keep getting worse until Jesus comes. Baha'u'llah came, got, for the most part, rejected, and then there came more trials and tribulations. The way things are going, we might know fairly soon. And wouldn't be something if someone came along and fulfilled the duties of the Messiah just like the Jews interpret things.

 

[Trailblazer]

As improbable as it seems, the NT and Revelation is still lining up close enough to how Christians see them... that the trials and tribulations keep getting worse until Jesus comes. Baha'u'llah came, got, for the most part, rejected, and then there came more trials and tribulations. The way things are going, we might know fairly soon. And wouldn't be something if someone came along and fulfilled the duties of the Messiah just like the Jews interpret things.

Dream on.... Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

So how is it possible that Jesus could return to the world and fulfill the duties of the Messiah, unless the NT is in error? Also, unless Jesus rose from the dead and is 'alive' in a physical body in heaven, how can he come down from heaven, and since heaven is a purely spiritual world, not a physical world, Jesus cannot be 'up there' in a physical body, which means Jesus cannot return to earth in a physical body.

Besides that, there is not one single verse where Jesus promised to return to earth. I already know the verse that Christians cite (John 14:3) but it does not mean the same Jesus will come again the same body, it means the spirit of Jesus will come again in another man.

Besides that, since Baha'u'llah already fulfilled those prophecies how can Jesus also fulfill them?
I will be getting to those OT prophecies you sent me, don't you worry....

 

[Trailblazer]

This is what I found at a Jewish 101 website...
The following passages in the Jewish scriptures are the ones that Jews consider to be messianic in nature or relating to the end of days. These are the ones that we rely upon in developing our messianic concept:

I started looking up the verses but that is a lot of verses.
Were I to take this on as a homework assignment I would want to start a new thread....

 

[CG Didymus]

Dream on.... Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

So how is it possible that Jesus could return to the world and fulfill the duties of the Messiah, unless the NT is in error? Also, unless Jesus rose from the dead and is 'alive' in a physical body in heaven, how can he come down from heaven, and since heaven is a purely spiritual world, not a physical world, Jesus cannot be 'up there' in a physical body, which means Jesus cannot return to earth in a physical body.

Besides that, there is not one single verse where Jesus promised to return to earth. I already know the verse that Christians cite (John 14:3) but it does not mean the same Jesus will come again the same body, it means the spirit of Jesus will come again in another man.

Besides that, since Baha'u'llah already fulfilled those prophecies how can Jesus also fulfill them?
I will be getting to those OT prophecies you sent me, don't you worry....

Well, Baha'is take so many Bible and NT verses symbolically, including the verses that say Jesus came back to life, why would you take those verses about his work being "finished" as literally meaning he's never coming back? Besides, technically, he supposedly said those words and died, so he was gone from the world, just a lifeless corpse was left. But it came back to life, so he, his spirit in a physical body, was back on Earth.

But it wasn't a normal body. This body could appear and disappear and yet... had flesh and bone? Then could float off into the sky? Or, he's alive in spirit form and can materialize in a physical form when ever he wants to. Improbable? Against what our science says is possible? Yes. But who knows. If God is real, then this stuff could be real too. What's the alternative? That the Bible and the NT are nothing but stories? That none of that stuff really happened? Sure, that's very possible. But then why not question the God of those stories? Why are the stories fictional but God is real?

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, Baha'is take so many Bible and NT verses symbolically, including the verses that say Jesus came back to life, why would you take those verses about his work being "finished" as literally meaning he's never coming back?

Because those verses cannot be interpreted symbolically. What would they be symbolic of? Ever heard of the plain meaning of the Bible? No more in the world and the world will see me no more can have no symbolic meaning. My work is finished here means what it says. Jesus finished His work in the world.

Besides, technically, he supposedly said those words and died, so he was gone from the world, just a lifeless corpse was left. But it came back to life, so he, his spirit in a physical body, was back on Earth.

That is a good point,. If Jesus rose from the dead after He died that would contradict the verses in John where He said He was no more in the world, yet another reason not to believe Jesus ever rose from the dead. Thanks, I will be sure to remember that.

I can hear the excuses now though, Christians will say that Jesus did not know He was going to rise from the dead when John was written, but there is a slight problem with that because there are other verses written before John where Jesus said He would rise again on the third day. So the logical explanation is that those verses were symbolic and then we have no bodily resurrection. We have Jesus dying on the cross, His body dying and His soul ascending to heaven and remaining there. Then we have God sending another Comforter from heaven (John 14:16, John 14:26), who was Baha'u'llah, which was the return of the Christ Spirit. The Baha'i explanation all fits with the Bible; the Christian explanation has many verses contradicting each other.

But it wasn't a normal body. This body could appear and disappear and yet... had flesh and bone? Then could float off into the sky? Or, he's alive in spirit form and can materialize in a physical form when ever he wants to. Improbable? Against what our science says is possible? Yes. But who knows. If God is real, then this stuff could be real too. What's the alternative? That the Bible and the NT are nothing but stories? That none of that stuff really happened? Sure, that's very possible. But then why not question the God of those stories? Why are the stories fictional but God is real?

The alternative is that the resurrection stories were written by men and God had absolutely nothing to do with the stories. The stories fictional but God is real because God had absolutely nothing to do with the stories.

 

[Rival]

Since it is directed to Christians then I can assume we aren't talking about the second coming.

Hi Ken,

I'm sorry; I misread this at first and thought you'd typed 'we are talking about...' hence my negative answer.

You were indeed right.

 

[firedragon]

Baha'is have to do this for both Jesus and Baha'u'llah and the others in-between. What was the Messiah supposed to do? Baha'is need to show how the first Messiah was to fulfill nothing and get crucified. Then show what the next "messenger" from God, Muhammad, was supposed to do. Then show that finally Elijah, The Bab, has come before for the end times Messiah, Baha'u'llah.

Since it is difficult for Christians to show how the Bible points to Jesus as being the Messiah, I would think it near impossible for Baha'is to show Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah are all in there. Oh, and is Bill Sears infallible? I don't think so. So his book is just his opinions and interpretations.

Let me tell you something that the Messiah in his second coming is supposed to do.

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me"

 

[Kenny]

Hi Ken,

I'm sorry; I misread this at first and thought you'd typed 'we are talking about...' hence my negative answer.

You were indeed right.

That is what I love about Jesus. You can make a mistake and still be loved, accepted and connected.

 

[Rival]

That is what I love about Jesus. You can make a mistake and still be loved, accepted and connected.

I love the Book of Jonah and the stories of the 12 tribes for stuff like this

 

[Kenny]

Dream on.... Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

So how is it possible that Jesus could return to the world and fulfill the duties of the Messiah, unless the NT is in error? Also, unless Jesus rose from the dead and is 'alive' in a physical body in heaven, how can he come down from heaven, and since heaven is a purely spiritual world, not a physical world, Jesus cannot be 'up there' in a physical body, which means Jesus cannot return to earth in a physical body.

Besides that, there is not one single verse where Jesus promised to return to earth. I already know the verse that Christians cite (John 14:3) but it does not mean the same Jesus will come again the same body, it means the spirit of Jesus will come again in another man.

Besides that, since Baha'u'llah already fulfilled those prophecies how can Jesus also fulfill them?
I will be getting to those OT prophecies you sent me, don't you worry....

You can't just take some verses at the expense of the others and context is important.,.

John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Acts 1: 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Revelation 19:19
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

What was finished was redemption of mankind... but he will return.

 

[Trailblazer]

You can't just take some verses at the expense of the others and context is important.

And you cannot just ignore verses that have a plain meaning, especially when you have no explanation for them. What do you think the context of these verses within the chapters is?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus did not say my body will come again. I believe that the spirit of Jesus did come again, in the Person of Baha'u'llah and that was what Jesus meant..

"and receive you unto myself" is obviously about the Spirit of Jesus, not His physical body, because there would be no way that the disciples Jesus was speaking to could receive the body of Jesus on earth since they were no longer living on earth. Where Jesus was was in heaven and that is where the disciples also are.

Also please note that Jesus did not ever say He would come again and do anything on earth that would require a body, like building a Kingdom of God on earth, as Christians believe.

Acts 1: 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Please note that Jesus did not say anything that is in this verse. Also, context is very important.

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Bible verses can have more than one interpretation. I am well aware of these verses and I have discussed them at length with Christians for many years. As such, I already have an interpretation.

I believe that the disciples were staring up into the sky as the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven out of their sight. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky because they wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky. Then the angels told the disciples that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return just as it went to heaven, in like manner.

The verse does not say that the disciples saw a body go up. It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits.

Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Revelation 19:19
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

There is no reason to believe these verses refer to Jesus.

What was finished was redemption of mankind... but he will return.

Not unless the Bible is incorrect or Jesus lied when He said he was no more in the world.
Then we also have Jesus saying His work on earth was finished.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

What was that work? To bear witness to the truth about God.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

If Jesus finished the work God gave Him to do, why would He return, to play golf with President Trump?

Then we have this verse, indicating that it was not Jesus who would build the Kingdom of God on earth.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Nowhere in the entire NT did Jesus ever say He would build the Kingdom of God on earth, that is just a Christian belief based upon what they want to be true.

 

[Kenny]

And you cannot just ignore verses that have a plain meaning, especially when you have no explanation for them. What do you think the context of these verses within the chapters is?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

So you ignored those verses.

Not ignoring yours... He was talking about the present time. None of these verses says he isn't coming back.

Yet Jesus said " But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

If he is going to "drink it new with 'you' " - means his back again.

Jesus did not say my body will come again. I believe that the spirit of Jesus did come again, in the Person of Baha'u'llah and that was what Jesus meant..

"and receive you unto myself" is obviously about the Spirit of Jesus, not His physical body, because there would be no way that the disciples Jesus was speaking to could receive the body of Jesus on earth since they were no longer living on earth. Where Jesus was was in heaven and that is where the disciples also are.

Also please note that Jesus did not ever say He would come again and do anything on earth that would require a body, like building a Kingdom of God on earth, as Christians believe.

Hmm... the tomb is empty and still has a body.

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. - looks like a body

Luke 24: 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Feels like a body, eats like a body.

It's a body!

Please note that Jesus did not say anything that is in this verse. Also, context is very important.

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Bible verses can have more than one interpretation. I am well aware of these verses and I have discussed them at length with Christians for many years. As such, I already have an interpretation.

I believe that the disciples were staring up into the sky as the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven out of their sight. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky because they wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky. Then the angels told the disciples that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return just as it went to heaven, in like manner.

The verse does not say that the disciples saw a body go up. It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits.

Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.

It's a body.

There is no reason to believe these verses refer to Jesus.

Why not?

Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

There is only one Lamb of God, The Lord of God...

It's Jesus

Not unless the Bible is incorrect or Jesus lied when He said he was no more in the world.
Then we also have Jesus saying His work on earth was finished.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

What was that work? To bear witness to the truth about God.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

If Jesus finished the work God gave Him to do, why would He return, to play golf with President Trump?

Then we have this verse, indicating that it was not Jesus who would build the Kingdom of God on earth.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Nowhere in the entire NT did Jesus ever say He would build the Kingdom of God on earth, that is just a Christian belief based upon what they want to be true.

I don't think so.

Rev 21 says otherwise.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you ignored those verses.

I did not ignore any of the verses you posted. I answered them in great detail.

Not ignoring yours... He was talking about the present time.

Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more – Jesus was referring the future. In a little while (future) the world would see Jesus no more.

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father -- means He was not going to be IN the world anymore because He was coming to the Father who is in heaven.

None of these verses says he isn't coming back.

Those verses say Jesus is no more in the world, which means He is not coming back. Jesus cannot be coming back to the world if He is no more in the world. That is logically impossible.

Yet Jesus said " But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

If he is going to "drink it new with 'you' " - means his back again.

No, that verse means that Jesus will drink it with you when you are BOTH in the Father’s kingdom, which is in heaven.

Hmm... the tomb is empty and still has a body.

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. - looks like a body

Luke 24: 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Feels like a body, eats like a body.

It's a body!

You can choose to believe those “stories” if you want to, but there is more than a slight problem. Before Jesus died He said He was no more in this world and the world would SEE Him no more, so that means that Jesus could not have risen from the dead and gone walking around in the same body and had 500 witnesses who saw Him, as it says in the Bible.

Not all Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead, and that means there has ti be more than one interpretation of the resurrection stories.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

It's a body.

Prove it was a body that ascended into the clouds. Otherwise my interpretation is just as good as yours.

The hundred-dollar question is why Christians worship the physical body of Jesus, when Jesus said it is the spirit that quickens and the flesh profits nothing.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

You do not have ti answer that because I already know the answer to that question; Christians believe it because the Church teaches it, even though it is not in the Bible.

Why not?

The question is not why not? The question is why?

Rev 19:9-19

There is only one Lamb of God, The Lord of God...

It's Jesus

Even of that is true, I do not see anything in that chapter that says that the Lamb is coming back to earth.

Nowhere in the entire NT did Jesus ever say He would build the Kingdom of God on earth, that is just a Christian belief based upon what they want to be true.

I don't think so.

Rev 21 says otherwise.

What makes you think that chapter is about Jesus? It certainly does not say it is about Jesus. You just assume it is about Jesus.

And I will remind you of these verses. Why would Jesus change His name?

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.