Duties of the Messiah (Primarily Aimed at Christians)

[Iymus]

After a discussion on another thread I've decided to make this one. There's pretty much 0 chance of this not becoming a debate so this section it is in.

I would like Christians to tell me how they know what to look for in the Messiah, what he is supposed to do and so on, using only the Tanakh ('OT').

Go!

I shouldn't get involved because most Christians wouldn't consider me Christian and I noticed no kind of tangible reward or stimulus package. As a freebie I will throw one out though

He is despised and rejected of Noahide but his seed/ministry shall prosper to Noahide's dismay / bewilderment.

Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I don't think so. I think he was a Jew following the Pharisees who were anti-Hellenistic in interpretation.

From Wikipedia: Matthew ...

Most scholars believe the gospel was composed between AD 80 and 90, with a range of possibility between AD 70 to 110; a pre-70 date remains a minority view.[8][9] The work does not identify its author, and the early tradition attributing it to the apostle Matthew is rejected by modern scholars.[10][11] He was probably a male Jew, standing on the margin between traditional and non-traditional Jewish values, and familiar with technical legal aspects of scripture being debated in his time.[12] Writing in a polished Semitic "synagogue Greek", he drew on the Gospel of Mark as a source, plus the hypothetical collection of sayings known as the Q source (material shared with Luke but not with Mark) and material unique to his own community, called the M source or "Special Matthew".[13][14]​

Also, Kirby's EarlyChristianWritings is always worth reading.

 

[Deeje]

After a discussion on another thread I've decided to make this one. There's pretty much 0 chance of this not becoming a debate so this section it is in.

I would like Christians to tell me how they know what to look for in the Messiah, what he is supposed to do and so on, using only the Tanakh ('OT').

Go!

Yes, this is the kind of thing I'm looking for.

Basically, I'm asking you to justify your Christian beliefs about the Messiah using the Tanakh only.

Excerpt from.....

"Jews, Christians, and the Messianic Hope

“I believe with complete faith that the Messiah will come, and although he may tarry, yet each day I will wait for his coming.”—Moses Maimonides (also called Rambam), (1135-1204).1

MESSIAH! Belief in his arrival was nurtured among the Jews for centuries. Yet, when Jesus of Nazareth came, most Jews ultimately rejected him as Messiah. To the Jewish mind, Jesus did not live up to expectations.

“Messiah” means “anointed one.” Among Jews the term came to stand for a descendant of King David who would usher in a glorious rule. (2 Samuel 7:12, 13) By Jesus’ day the Jews had suffered for centuries under a series of harsh Gentile rulers. They longed for a political deliverer.2 So when Jesus of Nazareth presented himself as the long-awaited Messiah, there was naturally much initial excitement. (Luke 4:16-22) But to the great disappointment of the Jews, Jesus was no political hero. On the contrary, he claimed that his Kingdom ‘was no part of the world.’ (John 18:36) Furthermore, Jesus did not then usher in the glorious Messianic age foreseen by the prophet Isaiah. (Isaiah 11:4-9) And when Jesus was put to death as a criminal, the nation as a whole lost interest in him.

Undeterred by these events, Jesus’ followers continued to proclaim him as the Messiah. What accounted for their remarkable zeal? It was the belief that Jesus’ death fulfilled prophecy, specifically the prophecy of Isaiah 52:13–53:12. This reads in part:

“Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, . . . for he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground . . . He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: He was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried . . . He was crushed because of our iniquities: The chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed. All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way . . . He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, . . . he was cut off out of the land of the living. . . . And they made his grave with the wicked.”—JP." (All citations of the Hebrew Scriptures are taken from either The Holy Scriptures (JP) or Tanakh (Ta), both by The Jewish Publication Society of America.)

Read more.....
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101991443?q=jewish+messiah&p=par#h=6

Quotes from Christian scripture are used only when reinforcing a point.

It appears to me that it was Jewish expectation that was not met, rather than the fulfillment of scripture.
Reading on in the article cited above, you can see why I believe that.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

They are special, most likely for the later day Messiah for sure.

Regards Tony

 

[Kenny]

So where are Jesus' children?

All those who became new spiritual children. It is the innumerable and uncountable grains of sand that God promised to Abraham through the Messiah.

 

[74x12]

After a discussion on another thread I've decided to make this one. There's pretty much 0 chance of this not becoming a debate so this section it is in.

I would like Christians to tell me how they know what to look for in the Messiah, what he is supposed to do and so on, using only the Tanakh ('OT').

Go!

Using the Tanakh I can point out how the Spirit of God told Samuel not to look on the outward appearance of David's brothers because God had rejected them. God see's the heart and said about David "I have found a man after my own heart" and so it was. And this is how you can tell the true Messiah. If you can see his heart and see that it is like God's own heart then you will find the Messiah and by the way ... how can you know God's own heart? Therefore, I say they should have known God first and then the Messiah would have been easy to see when He came because God would show Him to them.

Didn't Jesus say "search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life but they speak of me"?

And Isaiah's prophecy came true:

Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
​

 

[Redemptionsong]

Look, I am actually trying to be charitable. All I've asked is for Christians to give verses from the Tanakh - which has thousands of them - that describe what the Messiah is meant to do and be. Since Christianity is a religion based around their percieved messiah, who they believe is predicted in the Tanakh, it shouldn't be too hard.

It sounds like a straight forward request but, on reflection, it's impossible to disassociate oneself from what one already knows.

If l imagine myself as a Jew in the days of Daniel then l think l'd be pretty clueless about the Messiah. l would know his lineage to be through Abraham, Judah and David. I would know that he would deal with evil, and bring in a Sabbath of peace; and if Daniel had explained his prophecy then l would know the approximate time of the Messiah's arrival.

Much depends on what the prophets had already revealed about their own prophecies. Kings looked to the prophets to give guidance, so they did more that just appear, prophesy, and walk away. They must have given explanations and left behind them a tradition of Messianic beliefs.

As l understand, the earliest rabbinic traditions included hundreds of scriptural references to the Messiah, but not all have found their way into mainstream orthodoxy.

 

[MonkeyFire]

The messiah must be non-violent or he cant unlock your happiness, and if you fight there must be suffering.

 

[Rival]

He is despised and rejected of Noahide but his seed/ministry shall prosper to Noahide's dismay / bewilderment.

Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

This passage is generally taken to be about Israel.

All those who became new spiritual children. It is the innumerable and uncountable grains of sand that God promised to Abraham through the Messiah.

All of this is just a Christian interpretation on verses that can be read completely sensibly without this. This is what the verse in Genesis says,

'I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies,'

It says nothing about a messiah and it refers specifically to Abraham's descendants; the Jewish nation. G-d also says to Abram, 'I will make of you a great nation.' Again, you need a Christian overlay to read this any other way.

Using the Tanakh I can point out how the Spirit of God told Samuel not to look on the outward appearance of David's brothers because God had rejected them. God see's the heart and said about David "I have found a man after my own heart" and so it was. And this is how you can tell the true Messiah. If you can see his heart and see that it is like God's own heart then you will find the Messiah and by the way ... how can you know God's own heart? Therefore, I say they should have known God first and then the Messiah would have been easy to see when He came because God would show Him to them.

This is way too vague and could refer to pretty much anybody.

Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

What has this to do with the Messiah?

It sounds like a straight forward request but, on reflection, it's impossible to disassociate oneself from what one already knows.

If l imagine myself as a Jew in the days of Daniel then l think l'd be pretty clueless about the Messiah. l would know his lineage to be through Abraham, Judah and David. I would know that he would deal with evil, and bring in a Sabbath of peace; and if Daniel had explained his prophecy then l would know the approximate time of the Messiah's arrival.

Much depends on what the prophets had already revealed about their own prophecies. Kings looked to the prophets to give guidance, so they did more that just appear, prophesy, and walk away. They must have given explanations and left behind them a tradition of Messianic beliefs.

As l understand, the earliest rabbinic traditions included hundreds of scriptural references to the Messiah, but not all have found their way into mainstream orthodoxy.

All you need to do is look up Jewish beliefs about the Messiah and the verses presented. I've already given them several times on this forum so I'm not going through them again. Needless to say, they can be found in the Prophets.

 

[Rival]

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.”-Genesis 3:15.

The serpent was not the source of the deception against Eve. So God was talking to the spirit that used the serpent to lie to Eve. He said that there would be two offspring. One of the serpent, and one of the woman. This Messiah, the seed, or offspring, would crush the head of the serpent.

You have just inserted all of this into this one verse though. It could just as easily be talking about their relationship to sin. Or even just snakes.

After the flood Jehovah turns his attention to his faithful servant Abram and turns his name to Abraham (meaning father of a crowd or many). And he said this about the offspring (singular, not plural, that is to one person, the Messiah that was to come, and not all his descendants):

'Seed' in Hebrew is like 'sheep' in English. It's its own plural. This argument doesn't work.

"And by means of your offspring all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.’”-Genesis 22:18.

It says a 'a blessing' not 'a messiah.'

So by means of the Messiah all the nations of the earth would be blessed. Everyone would be blessed by means of him. Not just the Jews.

There is no mention of any messiah here at all.

Jehovah God made his covenant with Abraham on Nisan 14, 1943 B. C. E. 430 years later Moses lead the Israelites out of slavery to the Egyptians on Nisan 14, 1513 B. C. E. Just as was foretold that they would be there for 400 years:

Yes, He did.

Later God reaffirmed that covenant with Abraham's son Isaac, the son through Sarah, and not his concubine Hagar (who birthed Abraham his firstborn Ishmael). Abraham also had 6 other sons with a concubine after Sarah died. -Genesis 25:1, 2. One of them was Midian. Later a priest of Midian would give his daughter Zapaorrah to the Messiah, Moses.

And?

Jacob's name was turned to Israel, and on his deathbed he foretold that Messiah would come through the lineage of his forth son, Judah: The scepter will not depart from Judah, neither the commander’s staff from between his feet, until Shiʹloh comes, and to him the obedience of the peoples will belong."-Genesis 49:10.

Yes, the kings in Israel will be from Judah and the Messiah is a king. The problem is that Jesus wasn't a king.

Here we are told that peoples (plural not just the Jews) would serve the Messiah. That is he would be king over them. The commander's staff and the scepter both represent authority and power to rule.

Yes.

Almost 2,000 years after God made the covenant with Abraham, an everlasting promise that would never be broken, he continued to reveal his purpose concerning the covenant to Abraham, and made the covenant with King David:

"I will raise up your offspring after you, your own son, and I will firmly establish his kingdom. He is the one who will build a house for my name, and I will firmly establish the throne of his kingdom forever."-2 Samuel 7:12, 13.

So where is the house and who is on the Israelite throne? There is no temple and no king.

The Messiah would thus be king and have an everlasting rulership.

The throne is forever, not the Messiah.

That the Messiah was not only to rule as king but also as priest is seen in the prophecy of Psalm 110:


Jehovah declared to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”
Jehovah will extend the scepter of your power out of Zion, saying:
“Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”
Your people will offer themselves willingly on the day of your military force.
In splendid holiness, from the womb of the dawn,
You have your company of young men just like dewdrops.
Jehovah has sworn an oath, and he will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever
In the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek!”
-Psalm 110:1-4.

This is about David.

This actually tells us that the Messiah would rule in the midst of his enemies and subdue them. And it has been sworn, an oath, by God himself that he is a priest, "In the manner of Melchizedek."

Or it's talking about David.

How could a priest come out of the tribe of Judah if the tribe of Levi had the priesthood? This was not a priesthood based on the Mosaic law covenant given to the Israelites. We are told by Jehovah God in this prophecy that is not the case. It is a priesthood in the manner of Melchizedek. Now Melchizedek was the king and priest of Salem before any offspring came out of Abraham's loins. And it was the priest Melchizedek who blessed Abraham, and by extension all of his descendants. And the one who blesses is greater than the one being blessed. So the priesthood and kingship the Messiah would attain is of far superior and lasting value than that of the priesthood of Levi and Aaron.

This is what one Jewish translation says:

'The Lord swore and will not repent; you are a priest forever because of the speech of Malchizedek.'

And this is what my ArtScroll says,

'Because you are a king of righteousness.'

In any case, you are again reading something into this tehilla that simply isn't there. Even if you want to go with 'In the manner of Melchitzedek' as my Koren translation does, 'in the manner of' is a comparison, nothing more.

The Isarelites weren't even supposed to have a human ruler under the Mosaic law. It was their insistence on having one that God finally relinquished and had Samuel anoint Saul of the tribe of Benjamin as king, and then later David of the tribe of Judah. Among others.

This is complicated so yes and no. In Devarim Moshe is called their King.

So we have seen that the Messiah would crush and end the rebellion that started in the garden of Eden, by giving a head wound to the serpent. He would come in the line of Judah, he would command the subjugation of many peoples, not just the Jews. That all peoples of the earth would be blessed by means of him. That he would have an everlasting kingdom and would rule as king and priest forever.

No we haven't

That he was God's son and that God would give his son not only the rulership over Isreal but over the entire earth is told us in prophecy in Psalm 2:

"Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah;
He said to me: “You are my son;
Today I have become your father.
Ask of me, and I will give nations as your inheritance
And the ends of the earth as your possession."
-Psalm 2:7, 8.

So the Messiah receives the entire earth as his inheritance. Jehovah God gives it to him to rule.

This is again about David and arguably Israel.

Daniel forsees the coronation of the Messiah. And it is not done on earth, but heaven itself:

“I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed."-Daniel 7:13, 14.

Yes.

In this vision the "son of man," the designation given to this spirit creature in heaven, gains access to the very throne of Jehovah God. That means this spirit would become human, he would be born on earth as a "son of man," and thus rightly carry this title as well as "son of God." And the Ancient of Days, that is Jehovah God, would give him rulership, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve even him.

So the Messiah will rule the entire earth. It is a heavenly kingdom. And Daniel also tells us that by means of the government in heaven all present human rulerships will be brought to nothing:

“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever."-Daniel 2:44.

Right.

 

[Fool]

After a discussion on another thread I've decided to make this one. There's pretty much 0 chance of this not becoming a debate so this section it is in.

I would like Christians to tell me how they know what to look for in the Messiah, what he is supposed to do and so on, using only the Tanakh ('OT').

Go!

is it exclusively for christians and jews?

 

[Rival]

is it exclusively for christians and jews?

No.

 

[Fool]

No.

is it correct that cyrus was called moschiach,?

melchizedek?


before that glorious day trouble will come, the apocalypse, the revelation, Ezekiel 38:16

and then the light will rise like a beacon from the abyss. the ingathering, involution will not cease. enlightened.

the new jerusalem will be recognized where it all was begotten in eden, the temple body and the Spirit of God dwells. the image of god.


Ezra 9:8

Psalm 13:3

 

[Rival]

is it correct that cyrus was called moschiach,?

Yes.

melchizedek?

Not sure.

 

[Fool]

Yes.


Not sure.

psalms 44:26


Tehillim - Psalms - Chapter 44


where jacob found himself in the reflection of god's face and israel was born

 

[Brickjectivity]

After a discussion on another thread I've decided to make this one. There's pretty much 0 chance of this not becoming a debate so this section it is in.

I would like Christians to tell me how they know what to look for in the Messiah, what he is supposed to do and so on, using only the Tanakh ('OT').

Go!

What I can tell you, Rival, is that Christians are technically according to my understanding of the Christian canon in a Schroedinger's Cat situation. If Jesus through the church never (ever) accomplishes the messianic promises then the cat is dead in the box, but if he does then the cat is alive. Jesus, then, has infinite time in which to work; and all he has to do is get everything done before anyone else does. Its not exactly the same as a gamble but is a superposition of realities. Since the cat is alive many things are biblical, currently as we speak. Since the cat is dead they never were, and Christians were all wrong. All of this has to do with glory, faith, hope, seeing the unseen. Its oddly well suited to the Schroedinger's Cat concept. As long as Christians persist the box remains closed.

The thing is that you may be in a similar gambit. I'm not sure. I don't think Christians invented this multiple realities thing. I think its very old.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Its not creative.

 

[BilliardsBall]

After a discussion on another thread I've decided to make this one. There's pretty much 0 chance of this not becoming a debate so this section it is in.

I would like Christians to tell me how they know what to look for in the Messiah, what he is supposed to do and so on, using only the Tanakh ('OT').

Go!

Malachi 3--he will have a forerunner/annuniciator (John the Baptist) and will reprove and teach the ruling rabbis!

 

[Rival]

Malachi 3--he will have a forerunner/annuniciator (John the Baptist) and will reprove and teach the ruling rabbis!

But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

Not sure I recall JtB doing this...

 

[Harel13]

the ruling rabbis!

Now that would make a great name for a Jewish football team.