Dystheism: what would you do?

[Muffled]

It depends on the vision of God someone has.
Some people believe God made us autonomous from Him. Some others, like Calvinists believe in a very solid bond between man and God.

I believe the answer lies somewhere between the two.

 

[Stevicus]

I wouldn't worship an evil God, but I have a question, if God is evil, can there be any such thing as goodness? Where would goodness come from if God is evil?

Why would God create us as good if he was evil?

I can think of a few possible scenarios.

Have you ever seen or do you remember "The Mr. Bill Show"? That was a rather sick, demented piece of entertainment which started off as a short film on Saturday Night Live and somehow became popular for a time. Mr. Bill was created by "Mr. Hands," who created him as a good and innocent clay figure who was constantly tormented by Sluggo, an evil nemesis also created by Mr. Hands. God could be just like Mr. Hands.

 

[Link]

I can think of a few possible scenarios.

Have you ever seen or do you remember "The Mr. Bill Show"? That was a rather sick, demented piece of entertainment which started off as a short film on Saturday Night Live and somehow became popular for a time. Mr. Bill was created by "Mr. Hands," who created him as a good and innocent clay figure who was constantly tormented by Sluggo, an evil nemesis also created by Mr. Hands. God could be just like Mr. Hands.

What is goodness in this case: it would be created by an evil being and based on a evil being whims, it would be delusional and not real in this case. It would be a total illusion, as it has no basis, if God is not good.

 

[Polymath257]

I wouldn't worship an evil God, but I have a question, if God is evil, can there be any such thing as goodness? Where would goodness come from if God is evil?

Why would God create us as good if he was evil?

1. Goodness would exist with an evil God just the same way that evil exists with a good one. Via contrast.

2. it isn't clear we *are* good.

 

[Link]

1. Goodness would exist with an evil God just the same way that evil exists with a good one. Via contrast.

2. it isn't clear we *are* good.

The contrast doesn't make sense since there is infinite ways of going astray and being evil, many darkness and negative alleys while there is only one light. You can't map it via contrast.

 

[Valjean]

The problem you have is you are associating putting people in a hell to suffer simply for disbelieving is by itself is evil. I understand that. But that doesnt make it dystheism. If you lets say worship a God like Hooniyam Devi who is a God existing purely to invoke evil upon people, that is dystheism. And there are people who do.

I'm not sure I get your point. How are you defining evil? Are people even capable of judging something evil? If so, what criteria would you use, and why would they not apply to God?

I wouldn't worship an evil God, but I have a question, if God is evil, can there be any such thing as goodness? Where would goodness come from if God is evil?

How would you judge whether God were evil or not? Would you use the same criteria you would judging humans? You seem to be saying God is incapable of evil by virtue of being God.

I wouldn't worship an evil God, but I have a question, if God is evil, can there be any such thing as goodness? Where would goodness come from if God is evil?

If whatever God does is automatically not-evil, an evil God would be a contradiction in terms, so your first statement is moot. God is automatically good, no matter what he does. So, how would you even recognize an evil God that you would not worship?

Why would God create us as good if he was evil?

That God created us good is a presumption on your part. What evidence do you have to support it?

 

[firedragon]

I'm not sure I get your point. How are you defining evil? Are people even capable of judging something evil? If so, what criteria would you use, and why would they not apply to God?

Thats absolutely not whats said there.

Anyway, you wanted a definition of evil? I think in the same post I spoke of a God called "hooniyam Devi" who is there to do bad things to people. As in if you take some human ashes, do some prayers, and do some other rituals and plant something at the home of the person you want hurt or sick or poor or without a job or even dead, that's what that god is there for.

I think that is evil.

 

[Meow Mix]

what about heaven?

Depending on what heaven is, I'm fine with it. It still doesn't excuse infinite suffering of Hell.

 

[firedragon]

Depending on what heaven is, I'm fine with it. It still doesn't excuse infinite suffering of Hell.

Im not talking about being fine with it. You speak of hell all the time. But you very rarely speak of heaven.

So with heaven, you are just fine with it. With hell, you hate it, you hate God, you hate everything about GOd enough to called dystheism.

Thats the reason I asked.

 

[Meow Mix]

That makes sense - but unless you have an example of this Being showing "obvious signs of malevolence" - I don't know how convincing this could be.

I mean - even among Mankind - I see things done that I would consider to be malevolent - that others do not - it is possible that the metrics that anyone would use to judge this Being are completely subjective.

In the PoE thread, I chose as an example childhood leukemia; where some children are born, suffer horribly for a brief time, and then die. This also pre-empts arguments that suffering teaches us things.

 

[Meow Mix]

I wouldn't worship an evil God, but I have a question, if God is evil, can there be any such thing as goodness? Where would goodness come from if God is evil?

Why would God create us as good if he was evil?

Well, I should clarify that it would be dystheism if God simply isn't omnibenevolent: if God for instance just didn't care about suffering. Humans then could have moral feelings and intuitions that just aren't related to God. (I think this is the case anyway).

 

[Valjean]

That makes sense - but unless you have an example of this Being showing "obvious signs of malevolence" - I don't know how convincing this could be.

What would constitute "obvious signs of malevolence/"

I mean - even among Mankind - I see things done that I would consider to be malevolent - that others do not - it is possible that the metrics that anyone would use to judge this Being are completely subjective.

Are you saying that people are incapable of recognizing "obvious signs of malevolence?" That our judgement of good and evil is unreliable, so even attempting it is foolish? Are all our laws and our elaborate systems of justice just a joke?

Religions usually promulgate elaborate systems of right and wrong, and good and evil. What are these based on, Divine command, deontology, or reason? Are they consequentialist, or placatory?

 

[Meow Mix]

Im not talking about being fine with it. You speak of hell all the time. But you very rarely speak of heaven.

So with heaven, you are just fine with it. With hell, you hate it, you hate God, you hate everything about GOd enough to called dystheism.

Thats the reason I asked.

I don't hate that which I doubt exists, it's all academic.

But I think causing infinite suffering is a very serious ethical problem. Of course I would focus on hell and call it dystheism: the very concept is monstrous.

 

[Valjean]

Thats absolutely not whats said there.

Anyway, you wanted a definition of evil? I think in the same post I spoke of a God called "hooniyam Devi" who is there to do bad things to people. As in if you take some human ashes, do some prayers, and do some other rituals and plant something at the home of the person you want hurt or sick or poor or without a job or even dead, that's what that god is there for.

I think that is evil.

That's not a definition, it's barely even an example. By what objective criteria or abstract principles would evil be recognized? Would they apply to people only, or would they apply to God, as well?

 

[firedragon]

That's not a definition, it's barely even an example. By what objective criteria or abstract principles would evil be recognized? Would they apply to people only, or would they apply to God, as well?

Well. If you want definitions of Evil, from your perspective it will be subjective. A crook will consider a cop evil. A cop will consider a crook evil. One consider a missile evil. But some will call them missiles "peacekeepers".

What I gave is an example of what I already used to explain what Dystheism is. The topic was not "Evil". Nevertheless, in order to define evil, it would depend on you. What is your epistemology? Do you believe in an ontological proposition? Do you believe any proposition is cognitive? This will totally depend on your epistemology.

 

[firedragon]

I don't hate that which I doubt exists, it's all academic.

But I think causing infinite suffering is a very serious ethical problem. Of course I would focus on hell and call it dystheism: the very concept is monstrous.

So how could dystheism have a heaven?

 

[Meow Mix]

So how could dystheism have a heaven?

Dystheism is just the notion that God would not be wholly good. Even Hitler ostensibly had people he didn't want to murder, ostensibly if Hitler were God, Germans would go to heaven.

 

[Valjean]

Well. If you want definitions of Evil, from your perspective it will be subjective. A crook will consider a cop evil. A cop will consider a crook evil. One consider a missile evil. But some will call them missiles "peacekeepers".

Why would a crook consider a cop evil? A threat, sure, but it would take more than a threat to be 'evil.'
A missile has no intention or free will. It can be neither good nor evil.

What I gave is an example of what I already used to explain what Dystheism is. The topic was not "Evil". Nevertheless, in order to define evil, it would depend on you. What is your epistemology? Do you believe in an ontological proposition? Do you believe any proposition is cognitive? This will totally depend on your epistemology.

 

[firedragon]

Why would a crook consider a cop evil? A threat, sure, but it would take more than a threat to be 'evil.'
A missile has no intention or free will. It can be neither good nor evil.

What I gave is an example of what I already used to explain what Dystheism is. The topic was not "Evil". Nevertheless, in order to define evil, it would depend on you. What is your epistemology? Do you believe in an ontological proposition? Do you believe any proposition is cognitive? This will totally depend on your epistemology.

[/QUOTE]

So what is your perception of Evil?

 

[Meow Mix]

It is much easier to avoid having to define "evil" by presenting the PoE in terms of suffering.

The "Problem of Evil" is just an unfortunate historical name.

(Just to hop in on this current conversation)