Dystheism: what would you do?

[Valjean]

Thats absolutely not whats said there.

Anyway, you wanted a definition of evil? I think in the same post I spoke of a God called "hooniyam Devi" who is there to do bad things to people. As in if you take some human ashes, do some prayers, and do some other rituals and plant something at the home of the person you want hurt or sick or poor or without a job or even dead, that's what that god is there for.

I think that is evil.

That's an example of an evil act.
So what makes it evil, intent to harm? If God intends to harm, is he evil?

 

[Link]

How would you judge whether God were evil or not? Would you use the same criteria you would judging humans? You seem to be saying God is incapable of evil by virtue of being God.
If whatever God does is automatically not-evil, an evil God would be a contradiction in terms, so your first statement is moot. God is automatically good, no matter what he does. So, how would you even recognize an evil God that you would not worship?
That God created us good is a presumption on your part. What evidence do you have to support it?

I'm agreeing with you we can't see God as evil or good if he was not good, as we would neither be good or evil, but it would be some sort of falsehood corrupt universe.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I got into a debate elsewhere earlier today with a group of Calvinists that were making fun of some meme that depicted a person saying that even if God existed, they would not worship God.

Several people pointed out that this was likely because of things like the Problem of Evil: the meme-maker was basically saying that God would be unworthy of worship even if one existed. That’s all beside the point, just background.

What caught my attention was one poster (one of the Calvinists I presume) that was saying such people were fools: that even if dystheism were true, they should worship the god to avoid infinite suffering in Hell.

Now, I disagree with this, of course. I don’t act on behalf of my values to gain anything, and I don’t avoid causing harm in order to avoid punishment. I act on behalf of my values because they are my values.

This person just kept saying that it would be foolish not to worship the god, and praise it, and do what the god commanded, and so on: even if the god commanded to harm people, or wanted praise for causing harm. I said I would never do this willingly. He again said this was foolish (and trust me, by this point I do not trust this man’s ethics/morality, because this seems like exactly the line of argument I imagine some Nazis gave: “I better follow orders for my own safety.” I would rather die than be a Nazi.)

So anyway, this got me to thinking of a horrible hypothetical. In the case of dystheism, where there is just an awful god, but said god is omnipotent and can cause you to suffer a lot for an infinite amount of time unless you followed its harmful commands or praised it for harming people or any number of nasty things: am I alone in saying that while my mind and will are my own (before I go too crazy from whatever tortures would be put upon me), I’d choose Hell over going against my values of not harming people and not praising monsters?

If God was evil like that, He could force us to bow down! But we don’t … we can choose to live any way we want. (That right there is evidence for Free Will.)
But we can’t deny that evil happens. Maybe there’s a fourth aspect to Epicurus’ trilemma that he didn’t consider?

What about a challenge?

Let’s put this on a personal level.
Say someone said that you couldn’t lift 100 lbs. What would be the best way to answer that? Just argue, and say “you’re wrong!”? Nah… go out & lift something that’s 100 lbs. That would settle it, right?

But now, let’s make this even more drastic. Let’s say you have a 17 yr old son who (to fit the analogy I’m making) will always be 17. And someone comes along and says that your son doesn’t need your protection and guidance anymore; he can make his own decisions… and your son agrees with him! To observers it seems like a valid issue. I mean, 17 is close to being able to live independently, but not fully.

You want your son to listen to you, but he doesn’t want to.

How would you settle it?

This is what happened in Genesis 3.

Jehovah God is allowing the issue to be settled (once for all time), letting humans rule themselves.

Fortunately, any suffering we experience, doesn’t last forever. At most it’s 70 to 80 years. If some suffer too much, ie., cancer, another disease, or malnutrition, it’s even shorter.
But even then, for the vast majority life has good moments, doesn’t it?

And when we die, it’s RIP (John 11:11-14)… until the coming resurrection to life (for all) when this Earth will be a paradise again. As God originally intended.
I think this explanation agrees with all Biblical scripture.

There’s a lot I left out, but will be glad to answer any friendly questions.

 

[Meow Mix]

If God was evil like that, He could force us to bow down! But we don’t … we can choose to live any way we want. (That right there is evidence for Free Will.)
But we can’t deny that evil happens. Maybe there’s a fourth aspect to Epicurus’ trilemma that he didn’t consider?

What about a challenge?

Let’s put this on a personal level.
Say someone said that you couldn’t lift 100 lbs. What would be the best way to answer that? Just argue, and say “you’re wrong!”? Nah… go out & lift something that’s 100 lbs. That would settle it, right?

But now, let’s make this even more drastic. Let’s say you have a 17 yr old son who (to fit the analogy I’m making) will always be 17. And someone comes along and says that your son doesn’t need your protection and guidance anymore; he can make his own decisions… and your son agrees with him! To observers it seems like a valid issue. I mean, 17 is close to being able to live independently, but not fully.

You want your son to listen to you, but he doesn’t want to.

How would you settle it?

This is what happened in Genesis 3.

Jehovah God is allowing the issue to be settled (once for all time), letting humans rule themselves.

Fortunately, any suffering we experience, doesn’t last forever. At most it’s 70 to 80 years. If some suffer too much, ie., cancer, another disease, or malnutrition, it’s even shorter.
But even then, for the vast majority life has good moments, doesn’t it?

And when we die, it’s RIP (John 11:11-14)… until the coming resurrection to life (for all) when this Earth will be a paradise again. As God originally intended.
I think this explanation agrees with all Biblical scripture.

There’s a lot I left out, but will be glad to answer any friendly questions.

I have three or so threads going on even now about the Problem of Evil, and this is all very pertinent to those. I do not think this is good justification for the existence of the suffering that we see in the world. An omnipotent/omniscient being would have nothing to prove, no tests would need to be done. Such a being could create a world without any physical suffering, and its existence is evidence that if there is such a being, it is not omnibenevolent.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

That God created us good is a presumption on your part. What evidence do you have to support it?

To you, isn’t saying “God created us” (either good or bad) a presumption? So since you’re accepting the presumption for this OP, I’ll post Genesis 1:31. (Hope you’ll read it) So there was nothing obviously harmful at that time.

But that all changed when they used their free will to rebel & give credibility to Satan’s challenge of Jehovah God’s sovereignty.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I have been busy with other more pressing matters. I’d like to resume this conversation….

I have three or so threads going on even now about the Problem of Evil, and this is all very pertinent to those. I do not think this is good justification for the existence of the suffering that we see in the world. An omnipotent/omniscient being would have nothing to prove, no tests would need to be done. Such a being could create a world without any physical suffering, and its existence is evidence that if there is such a being, it is not omnibenevolent.

First of all, I have to ask: why does omniscience always have to include ‘knowing the future’?

There are several instances, in the Bible, where Jehovah did not know. In fact, pretty much right at the start of it, in Genesis 4:6-7, we’re told that Jehovah God tried to get Cain to control himself, before he did something rash.
Did Cain listen? Nope.

But the point is…. why would God even try, if He already knew the outcome?

In Genesis 18, we have another instance where Jehovah told Abraham that He was going to Sodom to find out how bad it was.

In Psalms 78:41, the Israelites “pained the Holy One of Israel.”

But God knew it would happen? What, is He a sadomasochist?

I don’t think so, I think He respects our privacy, and our right to free Will.

In regard to the issues raised during the rebellion in the G of E…. keep in mind that there were quite a few intelligent creatures (ie., angels) watching this confrontation, wondering how God was going to deal with it.

You know, it’s interesting to me about how people, in discussion of the PoE, say how bad life is — it does have its challenges, that’s for sure; and some have it real bad — but in a later conversation with these ones, when I mention about the Last Days, then they’re like, “Oh, nooo! Things aren’t bad.”

I gotta wonder, which is it? (Just rhetorical.)

There’s a lot more aspects to consider. For example, one is the future Resurrection (Acts of the Apostles 24:15)..…that event will benefit all mankind: give the guilty a chance to rectify every wrong, and allow the innocent to receive justice!

Most people aren’t taught the following — they’re told the good go to Heaven — but the Bible states, quite clearly, that mankind’s future prospects are eternal life here on Earth.
Revelation 21:3-4 “tent of God is with mankind…. and death will be no more”…; Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:10-11,29. How would you like to experience the fulfillment of Isaiah 11:6-9? It’s part of “Thy will be done on Earth” in Matthew 6:9-10.

Take care, my cousin.