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each year many unborn babies are deliberately aborted.

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Just one more point. The burden of proof is still upon you to prove that a fetus or even an embryo is human in both a legal and mail sense. And side neither the law of the Bible agrees with you I don't see how you are going to do it.
That's two more appeals to authority for you. (Logical fallacies)

The unborn have always been considered living human persons.

When did that stop?

I bet you must be sweating over Kavanaugh becoming a Supreme Court Justice.

If the Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade, then that would mean that the unborn were suddenly human again.

But wait - were they not human during the interim?

That is the reason why the law cannot define who or what is human, because laws are subject to change, while whether or not someone is human never changes.

The entirety of human history, logic and science are on my side. Everything points to the unborn being living human persons.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That's two more appeals to authority for you. (Logical fallacies)

Wrong again. There was no appeal to authority. Didn't we go over the fact that you do not understand logical fallacies and that you should not try to use them already?

The unborn have always been considered living human persons.

When did that stop?

Where did you get that crazy idea from? Citation needed. Remember, you are not a source.

I bet you must be sweating over Kavanaugh becoming a Supreme Court Justice.

Not in this matter. The Supreme Court is unlikely to reverse Roe vs. Wade.

If the Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade, then that would mean that the unborn were suddenly human again.

But wait - were they not human during the interim?

That is the reason why the law cannot define who or what is human, because laws are subject to change, while whether or not someone is human never changes.

The entirety of human history, logic and science are on my side. Everything points to the unborn being living human persons.

Nope, but thanks for telling us that you do not understand what the Supreme Court does either.

You still have the burden of proof to support your ignorant claims.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That was why I made that list of my previous posts for you, to prove that you never supported your claims against me.

Then you ended with another ad hominem.
No, I am ignoring the attempt to change the topic. And there was no ad hominem.

Dude! You really need to work on your logical fallacies. Your weak attempts to use them are truly comic.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
I doubt very much that you have read my posts.
enough to know they're at least as opinion based as anyone else's
All of human history, logic and science prove that all people everywhere are the products of pregnancy.

That is not my opinion. That is fact.
Cool. No one has suggested anything different. But being tbe product of pregnancy does not make pregnancy = a person. Oak trees are the product of acorns. But if I sell you a truckload of timber, but deliver only an acorn, I'm reasonably certain you'd complain that what was delivered is not what was described.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The sharing of my opinion is suddenly a call for enforcement of my beliefs?
No; your call for denial of rights was a call for enforcement of your beliefs. And not just in a single post; you expressed the same idea several times through the thread. I just picked one example.

But I understand now that you misspoke. Like I said: fair enough. What we say doesn't always perfectly reflect what we mean.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
That's two more appeals to authority for you. (Logical fallacies)

The unborn have always been considered living human persons.

When did that stop?

I bet you must be sweating over Kavanaugh becoming a Supreme Court Justice.

If the Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade, then that would mean that the unborn were suddenly human again.

But wait - were they not human during the interim?

That is the reason why the law cannot define who or what is human, because laws are subject to change, while whether or not someone is human never changes.

The entirety of human history, logic and science are on my side. Everything points to the unborn being living human persons.
Have you read Roe v. Wade?
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Oak trees are the product of acorns. But if I sell you a truckload of timber, but deliver only an acorn, I'm reasonably certain you'd complain that what was delivered is not what was described.
This nonsense is one of the most ignorant arguments I hear regularly from feticide rights people. It's flat out scientifically illiterate.
If you order timber you aren't ordering an oak, or even a tree. You're ordering building material. The leftovers from a dead tree.
If you order an oak, because you want to plant trees, acorns might be just the ticket. No amount of timber will do. Because it's not a tree, much less an oak.
But an acorn is.

But being tbe product of pregnancy does not make pregnancy = a person.
Here's another way your pathetic hypothetical can be illuminating.

"Tree" is a lot like "person", in the sense that it's a subjective concept. A tree is not a grass or a bush or an herb. In that sense, an acorn is a tree because oaks have a single woody stem and oaks are trees. If you're a botanist you know an acorn is a tree. If you're cutting fire wood it isn't.

Similarly, the word "person" is highly subjective. To the ancient Israelites, only adult male Israelites were really persons. Here in the USA, a couple hundred years ago, blacks and indigenous humans weren't persons. It was well after the War of Northern Aggression that killing a Native American was recognized as a crime in my home state, Indiana. They simply weren't persons, according to the ethics and laws of the day.

Similarly, while you may have your own subjective opinion about which human beings qualify as persons, there is no doubt that fetal children are human beings. That's the reality.

No amount of semantics will change that reality. You may dismiss the personhood of some human beings, it's been done for all of human history.

But my subjective opinion is that the more human beings are accorded personhood the better the human situation will be.
Tom
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Similarly, while you may have your own subjective opinion about which human beings qualify as persons, there is no doubt that fetal children are human beings. That's the reality.
Ignoring the insults and handwaves, I'll cut straight to this bit.

There's plenty of doubt that a foetus is a "human being" because human being is an arbitrary subjective concept. A foetus is most certainly human, i.e. is an organism that is a member of the human species, but by what definition of "human BEING" does it qualify?
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
There's plenty of doubt that a foetus is a "human being" because human being is an arbitrary subjective concept.
Only if you're scientifically illiterate.

Anybody who has a basic grasp of biology can understand the life cycle of a primate. Humans are primates. The science on this is utterly clear, even if it interferes with your agenda.

In the past, people didn't want to believe that black or indigenous people were human beings either. They were wrong as well. No amount of semantics will change that.
Tom
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Only if you're scientifically illiterate.

Anybody who has a basic grasp of biology can understand the life cycle of a primate. Humans are primates. The science on this is utterly clear, even if it interferes with your agenda.

In the past, people didn't want to believe that black or indigenous people were human beings either. They were wrong as well. No amount of semantics will change that.
Tom
I'm pretty certain my scientific literacy is fine, thanks. It's not a matter of mere semantics. "Human being" is a subjective, and NON scientific term. I'm still waiting for you to provide a meaningful definition of what you mean by the term which qualifies a foetus as anything particularly special or worthy of any particular concern. Here's a fun idea, maybe see if you can answer the question WITHOUT resorting to personal insults, just for something different.

My personal opinion is that to be a human being, one must posses an ongoing sense of self, which a foetus doesn't. Without a circular "a foetus is a human being, it's a human being because it's a person" argument, can you specifically explain what makes a foetus a "human being" in your opinion?
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
I would be a democrat but my conscience is against abortion in many cases. I do not wish to compromise the health of the mothers in any way though.

I think its sad that society cant raise up unwanted babies.
 

j1i

Smiling is charity without giving money
a personal choice or a question of morality?

There is a time period in which the organism becomes alive
If he is alive it is immoral to abort him Because it is a murder only if it will cause harm to the pregnant woman
If at the beginning it can be stopped for psychological reasons such as being raped or having a risk to the pregnant woman
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Ultimately, abortion reduces suffering. Not only the suffering the individual will experience, but the suffering brought on by a population that is too high. All those fetuses that are aborted means more space, food, and water for the rest of us. Without abortion the population would be so high that over population would be a severely crippling problem, a problem so great that only a plague or massive war could ameliorate the situation. And not too mention that higher population densities make it easier for a disease to spread around.

So if transgender issues were detectable within the legal abortion timeframe you would support a parent ending a perceived suffering of such a child?
 

Shad

Veteran Member
That males have to sign up for the draft is not an opinion (which violates the Constitution prohibition against involuntary servitude).


Nope. SCOTUS ruled in favour of the draft and the Selective Service System has never been overturned. Your very argument failed multiple times. I do not support any sort of draft myself. Just clarifying law.

 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
So if transgender issues were detectable within the legal abortion timeframe you would support a parent ending a perceived suffering of such a child?
Being transgender itself has not been directly linked to a decreased quality of life, and emerging studies on a younger population are showing they are better adjust and better off than those of an older generation.
And, on top of that, transitioning young pretty means they don't reproduce. The Earth gets a line of humans snuffed out, and if the transgender wants a child it means adoption. So it's a win-win (Sort of like homosexuals tend to adopt for similar reasons).
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Being transgender itself has not been directly linked to a decreased quality of life, and emerging studies on a younger population are showing they are better adjust and better off than those of an older generation.


Your only criteria was suffering. Now you are changing it. Toss in the resource argument you used as well.


And, on top of that, transitioning young pretty means they don't reproduce.

Irrelevant as my question was about abortion and detection.



The Earth gets a line of humans snuffed out, and if the transgender wants a child it means adoption. So it's a win-win (Sort of like homosexuals tend to adopt for similar reasons).

Nope as you are dodging my question but changing it to fit your answer.

Thanks for demonstrating your selective rationale of who gets to live and who gets to die
 
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