Earth and life, is it predetermined or accidentally developed?

[FearGod]

Yes, more or less.

If you want to look for the hand of God in nature (which I suspect you do) , then the place to seek it is in the order imposed - on what would otherwise be chaos - by what we call the laws of nature.

The resulting structures emerge quite naturally, as the result of random individual interactions constrained in accordance with these laws. This applies equally to the solar system, to the structure of a crystal, or to life.

Incidentally, Einstein seems to have become a sort of pantheist in the end, effectively saying that the laws of nature are really what we mean when we speak of "God". I don't necessarily subscribe to this myself, but one can see what he was getting at.

Which came first the laws that guided matter or matter came first and laws next?

 

[FearGod]

Randomness is part of the laws of nature itself. Laws of nature are partially random and partially deterministic.

How randomness is a part of the laws, please clarify your point?

 

[Subduction Zone]

You believe from trillions of chances some will get it right for life to exist and to evolve.

There is no "getting it right". The facts are that any population will have variation. Some organisms will be better adapted to the environment than others. Those individuals are more likely to pass on their genes.

 

[sayak83]

How randomness is a part of the laws, please clarify your point?

Through quantum mechanics.

 

[sayak83]

You believe from trillions of chances some will get it right for life to exist and to evolve.

Think of a piece of dice. In every throw there 1/6 th probability that a "3" would come up. Thus in a 100 throws, the existence of quite a number of "3"-s is certain. Similarly, every planet is a throw of a dice, and there is a certain small but significant probability for the conditions conducive to the formation of life to occur. Thus in a trillion planets, some will certainly form with those conditions in place leading to the subsequent formation of life.

 

[exchemist]

Which came first the laws that guided matter or matter came first and laws next?

Strictly speaking we don't know, but as experience and observation back in time (e.g. through astronomy) all suggest the laws have not changed, the simplest hypothesis is to assume they were always as they are now, and that matter has evolved in accordance with them ever since the (hypothesised) Big Bang.

The laws of nature seem to be as close to eternal as anything in the physical universe - at any rate there is no evidence to contradict that assumption.

 

[wellwisher]

Not necessarily, they can and do form Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) - so predetermined it is not.

And the rest of your argument therefore falls apart.

Hydrogen peroxide is not easy to form, directly, from oxygen and hydrogen. Hydrogen peroxide exists at a higher energy potential than water, therefore, once formed H2O2, still wants to react and/or decompose, to form water. Hydrogen peroxide is a detour toward water. If you use hydrogen peroxide, it gives off oxygen bubbles, and leaves behind water.

Hydrogen peroxide formation requires additional atoms/molecules so it can remain stable at its higher potential. This is also predetermined. Once you find the correct catalysts, the formation of hydrogen peroxide is reproducible in the factory, since it is meant to happen that way. Chemical manufacturing, that makes millions of pounds of product each year is based on predetermined results or else the product would not be reliable and salable.

One natural predetermined potential that helped the formation of life is connected to the water and oil affect. If we mix water and oil they will separate into two layers. If we agitate this mixture, we can randomize the mixture and form an emulsion. If we stop the agitation energy, being used to increase the system entropy and randomness, and allow it to settle, the induced randomization will reverse itself and two layers of order will reappear.

Water causes organic materials to phase separate in ways that minimize the potential of the water. In doing so it can cause organelles to appear, if you have the correct combination of organics; predetermined. The water and oil affect is the main reason other solvents do not work very well when forming life. Solvents like alcohols and ammonia tend to dissolve organics instead of induce phase separation. You would end up with a random blend or emulsion that cannot self assemble in a reliable way. Water sets the bar higher than the rest, allowing order to appear from random organic emulsions.

In modern cells, proteins are observed to fold with exact folds. There is no randomness in folding, unless we alter the system conditions to induce this. This observation demonstrated a flaw in the statistical assumption of life. This observation was not predicted by random centric theory, and once established as a verifiable fact, there is still not statistical explanation, even after 50 years.

The way you explain perfect folding of protein is, liquid water is so stable, due to self bonding, as evident by its high boiling point for sometimes so small, that organics are force to conform in ways that minimize the potential of the water. This need to accommodate water packs proteins in predetermined ways. It is like a water-oil affect at the nanoscale.

Proteins pack in layers with the moieties of highest potential in water; hydrophobic, having to phase out first to form the core. Below is an energy landscape diagram of a protein. The top diagram is a protein with little water or low hydration. The peaks reflect higher energy. Once you add water, you get diagram 2, where a;; the energy levels lower to minimize potential in water. These diagrams are predetermined for each protein.

 

[FearGod]

Through quantum mechanics.

What its rule as a part of the laws of nature.

 

[FearGod]

Think of a piece of dice. In every throw there 1/6 th probability that a "3" would come up. Thus in a 100 throws, the existence of quite a number of "3"-s is certain. Similarly, every planet is a throw of a dice, and there is a certain small but significant probability for the conditions conducive to the formation of life to occur. Thus in a trillion planets, some will certainly form with those conditions in place leading to the subsequent formation of life.

Who will throw the dice?, that's how I think.

 

[Faithofchristian]

It isnt predetermined.

We did not exist before we were born. When we were born, energy or life that moves things created a person (and all nature, the earth, the universe). We live a short life and death (termination of life) can happen at any moment.

Death is not predetermined either. As soon as we are born we are in the process of dying. When we die, that is it. The spirit that created us (as described above, the energy) dissipates as we turn to ashes and return to earth and ocean. When we die, its lights out.

I like this (I repeat it a lot since its good)

Life asked death: Why do people like me and hate you?

Death replied: Because you are a beautiful lie and I am a painful truth.

I can see why we would think life is predetermined. It assumes that we dont just pop from thin air but we are planned. Its a nice lie; though, in my experience, not at all the Truth.

Have you any proof that we didn't exist before we were born, But then you wouldn't believe what the bible will have to say and confirm on this subject.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Why do you insist on using the word 'accidental' all the time? By doing that you are making me disagree with all your options. There is nothing accidental about evolution. Or abiogenesis for that matter.

That's because it was by accidental evolution came about. It was never confirmed only by accidental, just because someone came upon something accidental doesn't make evolution a proven case, it's only accidental case of misinformation not accidental information.
So to confirm evolution it has to be confirmed accidental.
Without accidental evolution has nothing to stand on only on accidental.
So to make such a statement it was by accidental. And not a true statement by accidental.
So what proof do you have that is accidental.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Predetermined by Abrahamic God. He created Adam (from mud?), and to accompany him, Eve from his ribs. Bible says, and Bible is the Word of God.

 

[exchemist]

What its rule as a part of the laws of nature.

In quantum mechanics there is something called Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, or Principle of Indeterminacy. You may have heard of it. According to this there are limits to the precision in the information one can have about a quantum system. There is always an uncertainty about the values of properties. Most famously you cannot exactly know the momentum and position at the same time, but there are other manifestations of it as well. The practical effect of this is that there is always a slightly random element to the determination of a value. One can predict what will be observed only to a certain degree: the actual value could be anywhere in a certain range.

This finding was hated by Einstein, who commented "God does not play dice", but all the evidence since his death is that Einstein was wrong abut it and that God does indeed play dice.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Have you any proof that we didn't exist before we were born, But then you wouldn't believe what the bible will have to say and confirm on this subject.

Proof? That's a weird question. That's like asking me to prove how baby birds are born when I cant see them before the egg is hatched. Its like asking to prove that something comes from nothing.

If you did not have the bible, can you answer the same question? If not, why not?

What would be your basis of not knowing something that doesn't exist in order to build any opinion on it?

I've read the bible. Its not a science book and it cant support its info as fact by consulting itself to confirm it.

-
I know I was not here because my awareness of my brain is how we define our spirituality, our spirit (life), and our soul (personality/heart/emotions). We develop our sense of self as we age and interpret our environment and people within it. Teenagers start questioning life and young adults define how we fit in life. Around forty we are becoming firm in our beliefs. Unless one is indoctrinated the process of understanding life is gradual by age.

This is how we know our sense of self. Our brain. Our mind/thoughts. Our conscious. Our body. Our spirit. Our soul cannot exist without the combination of these things that make us a human being.

We are not a full human being as sperm and egg. We are growing into what we call a human (when we reach the above). Infants start learning more about the world in the womb that they could not learn before they were conceived.

Since the baby is not sperm nor egg, it did not exist as a human being. Kinda like asking to prove there was a chair before I made one as if the pieces were premade and came seperated for me to make the chair again.

When you read the bible (another question for you with the above ones) how do you associate creator and spirit with nature and human beings?

I know what it says but explain the logistics behind the connection. Does god give you details or do he just says "it is what it is"

 

[FearGod]

In quantum mechanics there is something called Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, or Principle of Indeterminacy. You may have heard of it. According to this there are limits to the precision in the information one can have about a quantum system. There is always an uncertainty about the values of properties. Most famously you cannot exactly know the momentum and position at the same time, but there are other manifestations of it as well. The practical effect of this is that there is always a slightly random element to the determination of a value. One can predict what will be observed only to a certain degree: the actual value could be anywhere in a certain range.

This finding was hated by Einstein, who commented "God does not play dice", but all the evidence since his death is that Einstein was wrong abut it and that God does indeed play dice.

What's its rule in the born of earth as being habitable for life and for cells to evolve to more complex ones.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Proof? That's a weird question. That's like asking me to prove how baby birds are born when I cant see them before the egg is hatched. Its like asking to prove that something comes from nothing.

If you did not have the bible, can you answer the same question? If not, why not?

What would be your basis of not knowing something that doesn't exist in order to build any opinion on it?

I've read the bible. Its not a science book and it cant support its info as fact by consulting itself to confirm it.

-
I know I was not here because my awareness of my brain is how we define our spirituality, our spirit (life), and our soul (personality/heart/emotions). We develop our sense of self as we age and interpret our environment and people within it. Teenagers start questioning life and young adults define how we fit in life. Around forty we are becoming firm in our beliefs. Unless one is indoctrinated the process of understanding life is gradual by age.

This is how we know our sense of self. Our brain. Our mind/thoughts. Our conscious. Our body. Our spirit. Our soul cannot exist without the combination of these things that make us a human being.

We are not a full human being as sperm and egg. We are growing into what we call a human (when we reach the above). Infants start learning more about the world in the womb that they could not learn before they were conceived.

Since the baby is not sperm nor egg, it did not exist as a human being. Kinda like asking to prove there was a chair before I made one as if the pieces were premade and came seperated for me to make the chair again.

When you read the bible (another question for you with the above ones) how do you associate creator and spirit with nature and human beings?

I know what it says but explain the logistics behind the connection. Does god give you details or do he just says "it is what it is"

Why are you saying things that is only base on by accidental.
It's only by accidental that you base these things on.
So what proof of accidental do you have of accidental that it didn't happen by accidental, but it happen by accidental.

 

[Altfish]

That's because it was by accidental evolution came about. It was never confirmed only by accidental, just because someone came upon something accidental doesn't make evolution a proven case, it's only accidental case of misinformation not accidental information.
So to confirm evolution it has to be confirmed accidental.
Without accidental evolution has nothing to stand on only on accidental.
So to make such a statement it was by accidental. And not a true statement by accidental.
So what proof do you have that is accidental.

Mutations are a standard process of evolution, they are not accidental; every off-spring is different from its parent, that is not accidental.
The most favourable for the environment of these mutations are successful and go on to replicate through natural selection. That is not accidental.

You need to take the Evolution 101 course.

 

[exchemist]

What's its rule in the born of earth as being habitable for life and for cells to evolve to more complex ones.

That's buried quite deep in the rules that underlie chemistry actually. And there are many other rules and behaviours behind biochemistry too, whether it be the properties of water as a solvent for life, the unique ability of carbon atoms to "catenate", i.e. form long chains, or a myriad other things. Nobody on this thread is suggesting the uncertainty principle is any sort of key to the origin of life. The point being made is the more general one that, in nature, order arises perfectly naturally from random individual interactions, owing to the laws of nature that govern everything.

So one needs to abandon the notion with which you started this thread, of there being simple alternatives, between either "predetermination" on the one hand, or "accident", on the other.

If you now want to ask questions about how life arose on our planet, join the club. So do we all. Nobody knows, yet, though we have a lot of tantalising clues. What we can say is that all our experience of nature is that simple random things can and do result in more complex ordered structures. This gives us faith that there is a natural answer out there to be discovered, one day, once we have enough pieces of the jigsaw. That is how science will approach the issue.

 

[FearGod]

Mutations are a standard process of evolution, they are not accidental; every off-spring is different from its parent, that is not accidental.
The most favourable for the environment of these mutations are successful and go on to replicate through natural selection. That is not accidental.

You need to take the Evolution 101 course.

Was the cell made to be able to mutate or it was accidentally that it gains such property?

 

[exchemist]

That's because it was by accidental evolution came about. It was never confirmed only by accidental, just because someone came upon something accidental doesn't make evolution a proven case, it's only accidental case of misinformation not accidental information.
So to confirm evolution it has to be confirmed accidental.
Without accidental evolution has nothing to stand on only on accidental.
So to make such a statement it was by accidental. And not a true statement by accidental.
So what proof do you have that is accidental.

Talking about "proof" in the context of theories of science is a basic error. There can be no proof of a theory in science.