Earth and life, is it predetermined or accidentally developed?

[exchemist]

Was the cell made to be able to mutate or it was accidentally that it gains such property?

You should really ask this the other way round: how is it that the biochemistry of cells generally follows a standard pattern, such that mutations are rare. You may know that in cancer, cells undergo uncontrolled mutation as well as dividing uncontrollably. In normal cells there are quite complex system and processes to stop this from happening, which fail to work in a cancer cell. The remarkable thing is how these system arose.

 

[FearGod]

That's buried quite deep in the rules that underlie chemistry actually. And there are many other rules and behaviours behind biochemistry too, whether it be the properties of water as a solvent for life, the unique ability of carbon atoms to "catenate", i.e. form long chains, or a myriad other things. Nobody on this thread is suggesting the uncertainty principle is any sort of key to the origin of life. The point being made is the more general one that, in nature, order arises perfectly naturally from random individual interactions, owing to the laws of nature that govern everything.

So one needs to abandon the notion with which you started this thread, of there being simple alternatives, between either "predetermination" on the one hand, or "accident", on the other.

If you now want to ask questions about how life arose on our planet, join the club. So do we all. Nobody knows, yet, though we have a lot of tantalising clues. What we can say is that all our experience of nature is that simple random things can and do result in more complex ordered structures. This gives us faith that there is a natural answer out there to be discovered, one day, once we have enough pieces of the jigsaw. That is how science will approach the issue.

Many rely on the notion that the law of nature govern everything, I repeat my question which
I asked before, which existed first, the matter or the laws that governs everything ?

 

[Altfish]

Was the cell made to be able to mutate or it was accidentally that it gains such property?

When lottery numbers are chosen are they chosen 'accidentally' - or are they chosen 'randomly'?

 

[exchemist]

Many rely on the notion that the law of nature govern everything, I repeat my question which
I asked before, which existed first, the matter or the laws that governs everything ?

Read my post 86 again, then, which answers this directly.

 

[Altfish]

Many rely on the notion that the law of nature govern everything, I repeat my question which
I asked before, which existed first, the matter or the laws that governs everything ?

Obviously the matter.
The laws that govern them are just the way in which scientists have managed to best describe them and come after observing how matter 'performs'

 

[exchemist]

Obviously the matter.
The laws that govern them are just the way in which scientists have managed to best describe them and come after observing how matter 'performs'

That's interesting. You have answered it the opposite way from how I did.

I was thinking of Big Bang cosmology, which - at least as I understand it - assumes the laws of physics can be applied from the instant after the start, even though there is hypothesised to be mostly EM radiation at that stage, from which matter later condenses, according to the laws of physics.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Was the cell made to be able to mutate or it was accidentally that it gains such property?

Why do you insist on this false dichotomy? Seriously you need to drop the word "accidental" . By the poor definition of that term your God is accidental.

 

[FearGod]

You should really ask this the other way round: how is it that the biochemistry of cells generally follows a standard pattern, such that mutations are rare. You may know that in cancer, cells undergo uncontrolled mutation as well as dividing uncontrollably. In normal cells there are quite complex system and processes to stop this from happening, which fail to work in a cancer cell. The remarkable thing is how these system arose.

Imagine that by chance cells will mutate uncontrollably for each organism on earth and
in the early ages, do you think life will exist then.

Your point is excellent regarding the cancer cells compared to the normal cells, it's
really puzzling what makes some specific cells to went uncontrollable.

 

[FearGod]

Why do you insist on this false dichotomy? Seriously you need to drop the word "accidental" . By the poor definition of that term your God is accidental.

I didn't mention God, predetermined doesn't necessarily means God did it.

 

[exchemist]

Imagine that by chance cells will mutate uncontrollably for each organism on earth and
in the early ages, do you think life will exist then.

Your point is excellent regarding the cancer cells compared to the normal cells, it's
really puzzling what makes some specific cells to went uncontrollable.

There is a whole science behind the understanding of these mechanisms, as it is key to understanding one of the most important classes of disease to afflict mankind. A great deal of it is understood and no longer a puzzle.

But regarding the earliest life, you are trying to start in the middle. A question that has to be answered first is what parts of living cells arose first? Cellular membranes? Metabolic chemistry? Systems for replication? Something else? As yet, we don't know.

But one thing that will have been important from the outset will be to have stable cycles of chemistry that are not disrupted all the time by unwanted side-reactions caused by, say, free radicals from UV light or something. This would be one form of "mutation" that would tend to destroy the reaction system. Interestingly I read recently that some of the "bases" used by DNA have exactly this property: being aromatic ring systems (this is chemistry so don't worry about the terminology), they can tolerate attack by free radicals without being boosted into highly reactive states that would cause unwanted side-reactions. Such bases have been found in meteorites, so they may arise naturally in space and have become incorporated somehow into early life chemistry on earth. Just one of the tantalising clues I was talking about.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I didn't mention God, predetermined doesn't necessarily means God did it.

We know what you are attempting here. Let's not play silly games.

 

[FearGod]

We know what you are attempting here. Let's not play silly games.

Speak your own tongue, don't represent what others think.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Why are you saying things that is only base on by accidental.
It's only by accidental that you base these things on.

So what proof of accidental do you have of accidental that it didn't happen by accidental, but it happen by accidental.

I dont see accidental as bad. It's scary for many because they feel without some sort of purpose and origin there is no reason to live. While I don't agree, accidents aren't purposeless, it's not something I'd prove right or wrong. Everyone is different.

The last part, can you rephrase? You have a lot of "accidentals". What do you feel is wrong with being here randomly?

Accident isn't a good word for it.

 

[exchemist]

I dont see accidental as bad. It's scary for many because they feel without some sort of purpose and origin there is no reason to live. While I don't agree, accidents aren't purposeless, it's not something I'd prove right or wrong. Everyone is different.

The last part, can you rephrase? You have a lot of "accidentals". What do you feel is wrong with being here randomly?

Accident isn't a good word for it.

Yes accidental is a tendentious term in the context. But looking at this poster's English, I suppose it may be a translation issue.

 

[sayak83]

Who will throw the dice?, that's how I think.

Every event in the universe is driven by the four forces of nature. For planets its the gravitational attraction force between matter that throws the dice.

 

[sayak83]

What its rule as a part of the laws of nature.

It is absolutely fundamental. Look up quantum mechanics in wikipedia.

 

[FearGod]

Every event in the universe is driven by the four forces of nature. For planets its the gravitational attraction force between matter that throws the dice.

It isn't attraction only, if it's only attraction then all planets will collide and hit each other.

Where this force came from that made the universe and even the force that triggered the singularity to expand.

 

[sayak83]

It isn't attraction only, if it's only attraction then all planets will collide and hit each other.

Where this force came from that made the universe and even the force that triggered the singularity to expand.

This is not a good place to explain general relativity. Let's just say that gravitational force is an intrinsic property of all entities that have mass. There never was a time when entities had mass but had no gravitational effect.
This is also not a good place to discuss the Big Bang either, but it suffices to say that under certain conditions gravitation can be repulsive as well, and the conditions at the Big Bang event was dominated by the repulsive aspect of gravity.

 

[FearGod]

It is absolutely fundamental. Look up quantum mechanics in wikipedia.

Fundamental in which way, in your own words?

 

[FearGod]

This is not a good place to explain general relativity. Let's just say that gravitational force is an intrinsic property of all entities that have mass. There never was a time when entities had mass but had no gravitational effect.
This is also not a good place to discuss the Big Bang either, but it suffices to say that under certain conditions gravitation can be repulsive as well, and the conditions at the Big Bang event was dominated by the repulsive aspect of gravity.

Which was first, the matter or the laws of nature that govern matters including the gravitational forces?