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Economic Slavery

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
@Augustus @Vouthon

Is it possible to create a functioning, prosperous economy without some kind of slavery? Whether it be conquest, sweatshops, wage slavery, etc. Has it been or can it ever be done? Is there a prosperous nation that hasn't utilised some kind of slave system to make itself rich? Is it possible to build a nation from the ground without it? Is it within our human capacity to do so? Is it possible to live in the kind of materialist society we want to live in without some form of slavery?

Basically, is it possible to become rich without slavery in any form.
 
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Alienistic

Anti-conformity
In this particular world, no it is not possible. Whether one likes it or not, they are forced to participate in it. One example being, if I go and purchase cost effective products somewhere - I am buying products where many slave labor for peanuts. If I go and purchase higher quality products from somewhere - I am buying products that many still slave labor but for somewhat higher wages. (Somewhere in the world.)

Not within our human capacity and nature to do so. And those in power will never allow such. If I created a utopian society on an island somewhere, made up of diverse yet ethical people who all utilized their innate and latent talents for the community- it wouldn’t take long before we are infiltrated and ruined, made looked stupid. Even with no wage system, everyone capable worked 4-6 hours 4 days a week (or more if they desired), we all had everything we need and then some, nobody complained or whined that they deserve more, we lived in perfect harmony, no hierarchy, we all were a natural government of individuals who just kicked some arse working together with no troubles, this world will never allow such to exist. We’d be too influential to more common folk who would see the sense in this and oppose the powerful, wealthiest, and those that run this place.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Is it possible to create a functioning, prosperous economy without some kind of slavery?
Yes. 'Possible' means it could be done. Of course we can live without slavery and also be prosperous. :)

Has it been or can it ever be done?
No, but until Buddy Holly there was no such thing. We just need our Buddy Holly. You know what the UK has the distinction of being one of the first if not the first to outlaw owning humans. It may not be the first but is one of them. Put that in your museum.

Is there a prosperous nation that hasn't utilised some kind of slave system to make itself rich?
Yes: Liberia, though Liberia is currently plagued by dictatorships it certainly isn't prosperous. Technically yes. One could try to argue that Israel is prosperous without slaves, but I am not sure. I don't think its entirely slaveless, but I also don't think it has grown prosperous upon the backs of slaves. Like most countries it also has employees, so you can't say it isn't prospering from employees. It is.

Is it possible to build a nation from the ground without it?
Yes. Nations have a problem though. They are defensive devices. They are about keeping people out and in, controlling culture and controlling access to resources. The moment you make this country which has absolutely no employment indenture you make this country the most desired place to live. If no one has to work for anyone else it becomes the most valued place, and so you need either very effective conversion of immigrants or very stringent immigration controls or both. Western countries experience this to the degree that we are free. Western governments to varying degrees let people decide their own fates, so in some measure there is not required employment even though necessity forces employment upon most people. To the degree that there is freedom the western country will make immigration more difficult or enforce more stringent conversion or both, because nations protect resources, protect ownership.

I think a nation without ownership must control population having a very low population. People would need a lot more space so as to avoid conflicts over resources.

Is it within our human capacity to do so?
Within our capacity: yes. Likely? Not yet, but the idea is there. The idea is very powerful, too. It might help if we became less human and manipulated our genetics to have fur, stronger immune systems, more flexible joints and whatever would let us live without houses. As it is, we are quite vulnerable to the elements and uncomfortable in hot or cold weather; and that drives most of human misery.

Is it possible to live in the kind of materialist society we want to live in without some form of slavery?
Yes. The Sun provides enough energy to provide work for all automation needed, so there is a technological solution. Each human could have one or perhaps two or three non-sentient robot servants to do all of our work for us. Then we could find meaning through other means than work.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
@Augustus @Vouthon

Is it possible to create a functioning, prosperous economy without some kind of slavery? Whether it be conquest, sweatshops, wage slavery, etc. Has it been or can it ever be done? Is there a prosperous nation that hasn't utilised some kind of slave system to make itself rich? Is it possible to build a nation from the ground without it? Is it within our human capacity to do so? Is it possible to live in the kind of materialist society we want to live in without some form of slavery?

Basically, is it possible to become rich without slavery in any form.
Yes.
 

Regiomontanus

Eastern Orthodox
@Augustus @Vouthon

Is it possible to create a functioning, prosperous economy without some kind of slavery? Whether it be conquest, sweatshops, wage slavery, etc. Has it been or can it ever be done? Is there a prosperous nation that hasn't utilised some kind of slave system to make itself rich? Is it possible to build a nation from the ground without it? Is it within our human capacity to do so? Is it possible to live in the kind of materialist society we want to live in without some form of slavery?

Basically, is it possible to become rich without slavery in any form.

Depends on what you mean by rich. If you mean it the conventional sense then the answer is no. There are simply not enough resources on this planet for a high (Western style) standard of living for everyone.

As long as profit is the goal then there will always be 'slavery', right up until the biosphere collapses. In my opinion.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
@Augustus @Vouthon

Is it possible to create a functioning, prosperous economy without some kind of slavery? Whether it be conquest, sweatshops, wage slavery, etc. Has it been or can it ever be done? Is there a prosperous nation that hasn't utilised some kind of slave system to make itself rich? Is it possible to build a nation from the ground without it? Is it within our human capacity to do so? Is it possible to live in the kind of materialist society we want to live in without some form of slavery?

Basically, is it possible to become rich without slavery in any form.
I think you had better define what you mean by "slavery". Obviously literal slavery, in the sense of human beings being treated as property and just given sustenance rather than wages to spend, is not a feature of modern society.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
I think you had better define what you mean by "slavery". Obviously literal slavery, in the sense of human beings being treated as property and just given sustenance rather than wages to spend, is not a feature of modern society.
I gave some modern examples in the OP.

Sweatshops, wage slavery, contracts that demand insane things, etc.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Depends on what you mean by rich. If you mean it the conventional sense then the answer is no. There are simply not enough resources on this planet for a high (Western style) standard of living for everyone.

As long as profit is the goal then there will always be 'slavery', right up until the biosphere collapses. In my opinion.
Profit....the eternal boogeyman.
Nah.
I blame the population explosion.
When I was born, the world had 2.7B people.
Last year there were 7.7B.
 

Stonetree

Abducted Member
Premium Member
Is it slavery to have to work for a living? Please define 'slavery' before a discussion is attempted. I recall the very low prices that first came on products manufactured in China after opening China to international trade. No doubt low wages helped the low prices but with time the Chinese have improved the economic situation for their workers. ( I assume,to be honest) I started work at one dollar an hour and was glad to get the job. I fully expected to get raises and did. Was I a 'slave' at the low starting wage ? Please define 'slavery'. (circa 1960 economy)
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
What is "wage slavery"?
Essentially working hand-to-mouth and having to rely on supplementary benefits to be able to feed a family. So, working for money considered to put one on the poverty line. I would consider this mentally exhausting and depressing enough a situation to count.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Is it slavery to have to work for a living? Please define 'slavery' before a discussion is attempted. I recall the very low prices that first came on products manufactured in China after opening China to international trade. No doubt low wages helped the low prices but with time the Chinese have improved the economic situation for their workers. ( I assume,to be honest) I started work at one dollar an hour and was glad to get the job. I fully expected to get raises and did. Was I a 'slave' at the low starting wage ? Please define 'slavery'.
I checked.
Dang...you're old.
I started for around a dollar an hour too.
But big candy bars were only a nickel.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Is it slavery to have to work for a living? Please define 'slavery' before a discussion is attempted. I recall the very low prices that first came on products manufactured in China after opening China to international trade. No doubt low wages helped the low prices but with time the Chinese have improved the economic situation for their workers. ( I assume,to be honest) I started work at one dollar an hour and was glad to get the job. I fully expected to get raises and did. Was I a 'slave' at the low starting wage ? Please define 'slavery'.
The Chinese folks working in factories that make them try killing themselves so they put up suicide nets. Can we run an economy that produces western wealth without this kind of labour?

Could you create the UK without any exploitation, from the ground up.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Essentially working hand-to-mouth and having to rely on supplementary benefits to be able to feed a family. So, working for money considered to put one on the poverty line. I would consider this mentally exhausting and depressing enough a situation to count.
It's not slavery if the person has the freedom to quit.
The compelling need to work to provide for oneself
& one's family is universal.
Am I a "profit slave" because without profit, I wouldn't
be able to buy food, clothing, etc?
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
It's not slavery if the person has the freedom to quit.
The compelling need to work to provide for oneself
& one's family is universal.
Am I a "profit slave" because without profit, I wouldn't
be able to buy food, clothing, etc?
No, but they haven't the freedom to quit because it means they'd be left for dead. It's only a technical freedom. If their kids would starve if they didn't, that's compelling.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The Chinese folks working in factories that make them try killing themselves so they put up suicide nets. Can we run an economy that produces western wealth without this kind of labour?
I avoid Chinese products when there's a domestic alternative.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
No, but they haven't the freedom to quit because it means they'd be left for dead. It's only a technical freedom. If their kids would starve if they didn't, that's compelling.
If I quit making profit, I'd be in the same boat.
This seems more like a complaint that people must
work to earn a living....no one will support them.
Should we have the right to food, housing, etc
without having to work? I see a problem if too
many people adopt that lifestyle.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
If I quit making profit, I'd be in the same boat.
This seems more like a complaint that people must
work to earn a living....no one will support them.
Not so much, more saying, for example, if those Chinese workers were paid a wage that could support a basic lifestyle with some niceties, would we still be able to have the same western wealth we have? Why or why not?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I gave some modern examples in the OP.

Sweatshops, wage slavery, contracts that demand insane things, etc.
Trouble is the "insane things, etc.", whatever they may be. Nobody can give a clear answer to your question because they can't be sure what practices do or don't qualify as slavery, in your expansive view of it.

I do not believe our society requires slavery in its accepted meaning, nor is there any - barring a few cases of illegal gangmasters here and there. In the UK at any rate. China does I think treat the imprisoned Uighurs as slaves, effectively, which is atrocious.

I do believe we have a lot of very unequal labour contracts, both explicit and implicit, which are undesirable and which we ought to get rid of. But that is something else.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Trouble is the "insane things, etc.", whatever they may be. Nobody can give a clear answer to your question because they can't be sure what practices do or don't qualify as slavery, in your expansive view of it.

I do not believe our society requires slavery in its accepted meaning, nor is there any - barring a few cases of illegal gangmasters here and there.

I do believe we have a lot of very unequal labour contracts, both explicit and implicit, which are undesirable and which we ought to get rid of. But that is something else.
Maybe if I replace slavery with 'exploitation' and not taking into account the mental and emotional health of the workers, to the end that we end up with the Chinese suicides.
 
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