ecpotts4 vs PureX: "The validity of Christianity"

[ecpotts4]

PureX, thank you for being willing to debate me concerning the truth of Christianity (or lack thereof). I hope we both learn from this debate, and I am looking forward to it.

I am going to copy and paste your first message from the original thread that I made and then respond to it in a separate post.


If I were to argue against Christianity, I would base that argument on the proposition that the religion calling itself Christianity does no reflect the teachings of Christ.

You wrote,

"A couple of points to consider:

1. Jesus was a Jew, and he remained a Jew to the end. He did not preach against Judaism, nor did he preach a new form of Judaism. He even admonished his Jewish listeners to keep to their Judaic precepts, and rituals, and traditions. He was not starting a new religion.

2. Jews both back then and even to this day are not evangelical. They did not and do not believe that anyone needs to become a Jew to know God or to be right with God. Jews believe that anyone can do this in their own way, such that there is no reason whatever that they would need to convert to Judaism, or to any other religion, or to any religion at all. And as a result, Jesus was preaching his spiritual message to all people: Jews, people of other religions, and the non-religious, alike. Not to convert them, but simply to inform them.

3. The message of Christ is both a revelation and a promise to all mankind. The revelation being that ALL human beings have the divine spirit of God within them, as they (we) are all God's 'offspring'. That spirit being the spirit of love, forgiveness, kindness, and generosity. Also a spirit of truth, wisdom, and humility. That is the revelation. And it is not tied to any particular religion.

And the promise that comes with that revelation is that if we humans will choose to allow that divine spirit within us become us ... allow ourselves to become human vessels for it, it will heal us and save us from ourselves, and will help us to help others to do the same. And when enough of us are willing to make this choice, the whole world will be healed and saved FROM US.

4. These are not religious teachings. They are neither Judaic nor Islamic, nor Buddhist, nor Hindi. They are basically a new kind of spiritual self-awareness that ANYONE can grasp and test out for themselves. Regardless of any particular religiosity or lack thereof. In fact, it's likely that a strong bent toward religiosity might actually get in the way: muddy up the clarity and simplicity of this amazing revelation and promise by attaching all kinds of religious messages and requirements to it.

5. It was the religionists in Jesus' story that opposed this spiritual message most adamantly. Even to the point of having him killed to shut him up. Because they saw him illuminating the difference between spirituality and religiosity and they weren't having it. And it's still the religionists in the 'Story of Christ', to this day, that are objecting most vociferously to his revelation and promise (to all mankind). And they're doing so for the exact same reasons. He is still exposing the differences between real spirituality and their particular religiosity. And they are fighting to maintain and protect the superiority of their religiosity.


Just some food for thought along the lines an anti-Christian debate. (I am neither pro- nor anti-religious.)"

 

[ecpotts4]

You raise a lot of good questions and concerns. I want to discuss each of them, but I think it would be helpful for us to discuss each of your points individually. Is there a certain one you want to start with or are passionate about? If not, we can just start with the first argument you raised.

 

[PureX]

They tend to be all of a single theme. That theme being that Christianity is a religious (tribal) reaction, or result, stemming from whatever actually happened in history that then became the story of Jesus the Christ that we enshrine, today.

As with all such significant human events, the reality of them become morphed over time and the retelling to better present the meaning that those events have come to hold for the people retelling the story. Such that the story of Jesus of Nazareth is now the mythical story of Jesus the Christ, intended to better present a very significant theological/philosophical revelation and promise to all of humanity. And as we humans tend to do with such significant revelations, some have enshrined it as their sacred tribal emblem, while others have remained skeptical, or have created their own personal interpretations of the myth. And what we call "Christianity" (the religion) is a collection of these based on various dogmatic religious interpretations of the story. With varying actual relevance to the essential revelation and promise embodied in the myth. While banishing the more personal and unique interpretations of the myth.

My argument would be that it does not appear that what is being proclaimed to be the revelation and promise of Christ by religious Christianity today logically follows from the essential information contained in the myth's history and original historical events (as we can best ascertain them). For example: that Jesus was God, that Jesus died for our sins (as the other bigger God demanded), that Jesus then arose from the dead, ascended into heaven, and will return to pass judgment on us all mostly based on whether or not we believe any of this.

I expect mythical stories to contain a fair amount of these kinds of odd and convoluted fantastic story mechanisms because they are intended to be metaphorical. They are meant to represent ideals that we hold to be important, not to convey historical or even logical facts. For example: George Washington is proclaimed never to have told a lie, and to have thrown a silver dollar coin across a mile wide Potomac River ... non-historical, non-factual representations of (his) honesty and strength. But unfortunately as religious Christianity became more and more of a tribal totem, it also became a kind of dogmatic membership test. Denying that the many metaphors in the story of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection are metaphorical became the litmus test for entry into the tribe. Forcing people to be either dishonest or stupid, or to be cast out as heathens. To then be converted or condemned (often by force).

And it was down hill from there, as we would certainly expect.

So where to begin? Probably with my admonishment that the story of Jesus is a story: told and interpreted by human beings with any number of motives and agendas. Some of which are intending to share a very valuable truth with us, and some of which are intended to trap and enslave us in fear and ignorance. And sadly, religious Christianity has done a lot of the later. And not so much of the former.