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Einstein and "spooky actions"

idav

Being
Premium Member
It's nothing like that. At all. Because in a water wave, predicting how each molecule will end up is hard because there are a lot of molecules. We aren't dealing with a lot of molecules. We're dealing with single electrons.



Your theory has nothing to do with quantum physics. You are relating waves which have lots and lots of constituent parts that make them difficult to describe in terms of these parts to systems in which there are no parts. There is just the one thing, the one electron, and we can detect it in ways that make it something that seems like it is more than one electron or is spread out or can predict whether you will measure it in a given way. But all of that, every possible outcome, is not like a whatever wave with lots of molecules. It is one electron.

I wanted to re-address some of this. I understand that QM is sending one at a time but QM also shows results as if there were two or more going through the slits. As if there were a wave of particles going through the slits rather than just the one. My description of the universe being a wave is accurate because in many instances the universe does things at the quantum level and would do so in the beginning as well. Any chain of events will still follow the sort of wave patter regardless of whether it is at the macro or micro level.
Then we can't explain the results. We're talking about an experiment that is over a 100 years old, and the most brilliant physicists of the 20th century and some of the most brilliant minds that ever were tried to deal with how one thing can be in two places at once (and similar seeming paradoxes). Do you really believe that they all just missed something so basic as "there may have been potential" but "it took one path"? If we describe the physical system as taking one path independent of how we might observe it, we cannot account for what we observe. It's that simple. You can argue (as Einstein did) that QM is incomplete, you can argue that we should ignore what these quantum thingies are, and any number of things. But arguing that it took one path, and this must be true, is nothing more than an act of faith against all evidence we've accumulated over the last century.
This is not accurate. The results show a photon or an electron to be both a wave and a particle. I'm not ignoring the results I'm just not jumping to mystical conclusions regarding what it means in reality. I'm assuming the simplest explanation.

Do I think something was missed, hardly, but things were certainly assumed. As my last post in this thread suggests things aren't what they seem and that is very likely the case for QM.

We aren't assuming a path is taken, the path taken is precisely what we are able to observe regardless of the quantumy wobbly thingies that take place. I'm going by all the observations while some are just concentrating on the spooky actions and ignoring the fact that we still observe a single electron taking a single path.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I wanted to re-address some of this. I understand that QM is sending one at a time but QM also shows results as if there were two or more going through the slits.

No, QM doesn't show that, and moreover we can see the individual electrons or photons hit a detection screen. The problem is the way they hit it. Particles have definite trajectories because they are real "things". A sound wave, on the other hand, isn't real in the same sense. You may know that sound travels faster or slower depending on what it is travelling through. That's because what's what's really "travelling" is not sound but vibrations. Think of a guitar string plucked. The oscillation of the string is what causes the sound. Same with a drum, or gong, or your voice. What is propagating, what reaches our ears that we interpret as sounds, has no "reality" the way that light does or water waves do, because it is how we perceive the way a "force" (I am using the scare quotes here because force has technical meanings and I am being informal). You can compare it to this nifty toy:

collision-r.jpg



When one ball collides, it transfers its energy to the next, but as the next ball has no where to go, it transfers the energy to the next, until finally the last ball goes up in the air.

Why does this matter? Because sound waves are very familiar to us and the difference between graphics of oscillations in a physics textbook resemble those of guitar strings. So it is easy to imagine that, like the collision ball apparatus depicted above, what is causing the perceived effect (motion and sound, as the metal on metal makes a "click" sound too) is not something made up of other things like photons are with light waves.


Because sound waves are actually a kind of wave, they have an interference effect, which (if detected with the right devices) you can see. I know the following clip looks like something for a child, but it's actually incredibly useful (if somewhat annoying). It provides graphics of all the things I've described to you before, which makes understanding easier.



[youtube]6Q4_nl0ICao[/youtube]

In case you think that is a trick of animation (there actually is a real picture at one point), I have included an actual video of actual electrons. It's important to watch the other clip first for context, and also to note that the narrator is describing what we should see, but it becomes clear we don't see that. What we should see is something like the particles going through two slits in the animated clip, but instead we have what appear to be particles forming a pattern that isn't possible for particles to make. Additionally, even though we see individual blips, we can predict the pattern of these spots by treating them mathematically as electrons were never going through one slit but (like a wave) each electron "travels" through both.

[youtube]FCoiyhC30bc[/youtube]

Then we wouldn't see individual spots.

This is not accurate. The results show a photon or an electron to be both a wave and a particle.

You can call it being both phlogiston and ether if you want, but that doesn't change how completely different quantum phenomena are from classical physics. Waves, particles, adamantium, aether, etc., are just words. Quantum systems are not waves, and they are not properties. Saying that they are wave-like or particle-like is like saying someone is only mostly dead (and that only happened once, and Miracle Max was there to save the day).
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
You said we can see individual particles hit the screen, that makes it a particle like I said.. Ive seen these videos.. Dr quantum is good stuff.
 
Dr. Quantum does a good job of explaining the double-slit experiment but he's also part of that terrible movie, "What the Bleep do we Know?", which to me is quite misleading about quantum mechanics. At the end of the video for example he's trying really hard to suggest to the viewer that particles are "aware" of being observed, rather responding to a physical interaction.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Dr. Quantum does a good job of explaining the double-slit experiment but he's also part of that terrible movie, "What the Bleep do we Know?", which to me is quite misleading about quantum mechanics. At the end of the video for example he's trying really hard to suggest to the viewer that particles are "aware" of being observed, rather responding to a physical interaction.
I was actually trying a video Mark P. Silverman's attempted to get Hitachi to make while at Hitachi's ARL, but didn't succeed. However, it was made soon after and I was hoping it had made its way to youtube by now, but then I saw this clip and it explained what I had been trying to explain using words and lots of "illustrations" made out of dashes, colons, slashes, etc. Also (confession time) I didn't watch the whole video. But I figured that if anything was inaccurate, either it would come up and could be addressed, or you'd know about it and re-demystify quantum cartoons.
 
I was actually trying a video Mark P. Silverman's attempted to get Hitachi to make while at Hitachi's ARL, but didn't succeed. However, it was made soon after and I was hoping it had made its way to youtube by now, but then I saw this clip and it explained what I had been trying to explain using words and lots of "illustrations" made out of dashes, colons, slashes, etc. Also (confession time) I didn't watch the whole video. But I figured that if anything was inaccurate, either it would come up and could be addressed, or you'd know about it and re-demystify quantum cartoons.
It's still a frubal-worthy post!
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I was actually trying a video Mark P. Silverman's attempted to get Hitachi to make while at Hitachi's ARL, but didn't succeed. However, it was made soon after and I was hoping it had made its way to youtube by now, but then I saw this clip and it explained what I had been trying to explain using words and lots of "illustrations" made out of dashes, colons, slashes, etc. Also (confession time) I didn't watch the whole video. But I figured that if anything was inaccurate, either it would come up and could be addressed, or you'd know about it and re-demystify quantum cartoons.

The video is nice in that it compared the real water wave to the wave like behavior of a single particle. Why is it that I would make such a comparison, you saying its an invalid comparison, yet the demonstration uses the comparison making it perfectly clear in laymen terms even?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You said we can see individual particles hit the screen, that makes it a particle like I said.. Ive seen these videos.. Dr quantum is good stuff.
Man, and I was so convinced this would work. Oh well.

I don't know who Dr. Quantum is apart from this clip (and I would heed Mr. Sprinkles' advice on the other video mentioned), but I was looking from something else and came across it and hoped that it would supply the visual aids I could not.

The key thing to pay attention to in the video is how particles behave with one or two slits (nothing much changes, you just get an extra "line" where most particles will end up), and the way a wave does. With one slit, as explained, the intensity of the wave is focused. You get results similar to particles with one slit.

Everything changes when we're dealing with waves and two slits. In the Dr. Quantum clip, you can see the waves interfering with each other, and instead of two lines where most particles would hit, the interference effect creates something wholly new and we do not get two lines because we no longer have "lines" of high intensity. The reason we don't get two lines is because, unlike particles, waves not only "add" together to create a new wave, but the new wave isn't twice the old one. If you add a pound of sand to a pound of sand you get two pounds of sand. Waves do not have this additive property. When combined, they cancel or enhance one another so that we find many "lines" of intensity because we have a new wave.

Particles do not do this. They can bounce off of one another, they can hit the slit at and angle and end up in unexpected places, but if we continue to shoot particles through two slits for a long enough time, or if we do it for a shorter time but repeat the same experiment over and over, we will find that particles go where we'd expect: through one or the other of the slits following a path from the slit to one "line" on the screen. In other words, if a particle goes through a slit, it's going to keep going along that line and hit the screen directly behind the slit it traveled through.

Now to answer this:
The video is nice in that it compared the real water wave to the wave like behavior of a single particle. Why is it that I would make such a comparison, you saying its an invalid comparison, yet the demonstration uses the comparison making it perfectly clear in laymen terms even?

First, the reason is that it apparently hasn't made anything clear. And second, I did try that a while ago and it didn't work then.

Here's the problem. As you said, we can see individual photons or electrons or whatever hitting the screen having "traveled" through the slits. And for a while, there's nothing remarkable about that at all. It's a little weird, in that even after a few dozen or 100 hits or detections we don't see the beginnings of two "lines", which is what we'd expect of particles (most of them would go through one of the slits until two lines form directly behind both slits). But maybe it's just that the photoneutronic electomizer gun needs to be re-calibrated, and the electrons keep hitting the sides of the slits and travelling at an angle.

Only that's not what is happening. Because after a while it turns out that these "particles", which should be going through one slit or the other, aren't just bouncing off of the slit edges and taking odd paths. instead, they are somehow travelling through the splitting screen, one at a time, and forming the pattern a wave would.

I realize that it seems simple to say something like "well they're wave-like" but this doesn't explain anything. This is not what particles do, and saying that they are behaving like waves is like saying a dead cat is behaving like it is alive.

How do we explain the fact that shooting single electrons will, over time, NOT create a pattern that particles do (concentrated behind the two slits), and NOT end up in random places, but one at a time gradually form a pattern of multiple lines that is completely predictable if we treat each electron as neither a particle nor a wave but as something that has "gone through" both slits such that it has interfered with itself.

That's the key question. If you take a machine gun that shoots pellets, bullets, paintballs, etc., at a double-slit screen, you cannot get that pattern. That is, if we were to shoot one of the above types of ammo at the two slits we might get a bunch that take weird bounces but most that go through will hit in one of two places.

With electrons, we never hit those two places. Instead, we get a bunch of lines that couldn't be formed by particles (even if we had a Navy SEAL sniper trying, lying prone, and trying to shoot through the slits to get the interference pattern). We get regular, predictable patterns, but ones that cannot be formed by particles.

Again, this is the key thing you should ask yourself: why is it that particles go through the slits and form two lines, one behind each slit, but firing electrons one at a time creates predictable patterns (the interference "lines" of waves) that can only be predicted if we treat a single electron like a wave?

Also, recall that in both clips, the interference pattern of waves always happens all at once.
The video is nice in that it compared the real water wave to the wave like behavior of a single particle.

Water waves are made up of water molecules, as you have pointed out correctly many times. However, if I shoot water molecules at a screen with two slits, I'll get a line behind each slit just like I would if I were shooting pellets or paintballs. It's only when the entire wave goes through that we get multiple "lines" of intensity. You've compared electrons to molecules of water. But that won't explain this because shooting molecules of water one at a time will get us the particle-version result of two lines, and will not get us the interference pattern.

So I have a favor to ask of you. Before you respond to this or another post on QM (at least regarding what it "is"), try to determine the answer to this question: why is it that shooting electrons, which hit the screen one at a time, end up forming a pattern that is impossible for particles to form (multiple "lines" and furthermore no "line" behind either slit like a particles form)?
 
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idav

Being
Premium Member
I realize that it seems simple to say something like "well they're wave-like" but this doesn't explain anything. This is not what particles do, and saying that they are behaving like waves is like saying a dead cat is behaving like it is alive.
Yes. This is precisely what is being said. It is both at once, such is the paradox of QM. I've been partial to saying it is both a wave and a particle.
So I have a favor to ask of you. Before you respond to this or another post on QM (at least regarding what it "is"), try to determine the answer to this question: why is it that shooting electrons, which hit the screen one at a time, end up forming a pattern that is impossible for particles to form (multiple "lines" and furthermore no "line" behind either slit like a particles form)?
This is something I've been wondering about which QM does not supply an answer for. All I can say is what I think is occurring, as you mentioned it seems as though the particle is interfering with itself which I agree with. What I infer from the experiment is that the particle is going through one slit while its superposition goes through the other slit, this superposition, being in two places at once, explains away the wave like interference pattern being produced.

Where I run into an issue is when people start saying things like the particle "knew" which slit to go through or which box to choose however all I see is a different experimental setup further interfering with the already interfering particles.

I see the wave of the water as sort of a way to calculate what is happening which is precisely how the probability is calculated, the particle is assumed to interfere with itself very similarly to the way a wave of several molecules interfere with themselves. Which explains why the wave of water gives the same type of interference pattern as a single particle going through two slits.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes. This is precisely what is being said. It is both at once, such is the paradox of QM. I've been partial to saying it is both a wave and a particle.

The idea of waves and particles have a history. By that I mean the words themselves and the way they came to be used in physics have a history. Particles and bodies described things, and the were incorporated into physics rather naturally, as even before Newton the sense of "body" as in "celestial body" or other physics uses was present:
" Loke þou haue a strong vessel..& loke þat þe couercle þerof & þe bodi be wel closyng"

"Man hath of eorþe al is bodi..of watere..wete, Of þe Eyr..breth..of fuyr..hete"

Interestingly, one of the earliest "physics"-type usage of particle and body comes from the same line: "An element is symple and lest particle of a body þat is compowned"

Over time, as physics matured and more nuanced, technical definitions were required, such definitions were formulated. And when later physicists came to understand that physics wasn't just mechanics ("bodies" at rest or not at rest and force), but that fields, light, energy, and various other terms needed to be included they were.



The important point is that even as definitions changed, they did so in particular ways. Particles were something very specific, in that by the 19th and early 20th century if something didn't have particular properties it wasn't a particle. The same is true for waves. Most importantly, they are defined in opposition to one another, and deliberately so.

The reason oscillations that result in the interpretation of sounds are called waves is older than physics, and naturally came from ocean waves. However, before physics had "waves" like sound waves, there was already a sense of "wave" that had nothing to do with water but did have to do with vibrations of matter: "The holy organ rolling waves Of sound on roof and floor"
"o what is that sound that so trills the ear"

Like particles, this sense was made technical. It meant something quite specific, because waves in physics did things that particles could not. An entirely different formulation was required to describe each, because particles were things, and occupied a specific space at specific times and moving (even if the movement was 0) along specific trajectories.

Waves were not localized. By the time waves was defined in physics the waves of the ocean weren't technically waves anymore. Rather, the waves were the oscillations or vibrations that propagated through water, but they were not made of water.

It is not a simple thing to simply say that e.g., electrons are both waves and particles. This is like saying that a cat is both alive and dead. It is a description of one thing as being in two mutually exclusive states. A particle cannot ever be a wave, and vice versa.



This is something I've been wondering about which QM does not supply an answer for. All I can say is what I think is occurring, as you mentioned it seems as though the particle is interfering with itself which I agree with.

The interference effect describes the ways in which two or more waves alter when they collide/meet/hit one another. Even in the technical sense, interference is supposed to require some specific thing that some other thing or things interfere with.

To say a thing interferes with itself, which seems to be the case here, means that it isn't a thing at all. The only way it can interfere with itself is if it is both itself and something else at the same time.


What I infer from the experiment is that the particle is going through one slit while its superposition goes through the other slit, this superposition, being in two places at once, explains away the wave like interference pattern being produced.

Superposition is a single state of a single system. It's defined that way. However, what that means is that this single state of the system has more than one set of coordinates or is a system characterized by more than one mutually exclusive set of properties (like position).

Where I run into an issue is when people start saying things like the particle "knew" which slit to go through or which box to choose however all I see is a different experimental setup further interfering with the already interfering particles.

That's the delayed-choice experiment. The idea behind it is as follows:

We know that we get the interference pattern, even with one electron going through the double-slit screen at a time. We also know that if we set up any kind of device to try to detect which slit the electron goes through (either by having some kind of device at the slit, or by using some telescope or imagine equipment to "see" which slit the electron travels through), the interference pattern disappears.

The reason we have descriptions like "knew" or "knows" is due to J. A. Wheeler's delayed-choice experiment. The set-up is the same as the double-slit experiment, with the electron gun, the double-slit screen and the detection screen. The only difference is that we have detection equipment (like a telescope) set-up behind the detection screen. So we start the experiment and the electrons start hitting the detection screen one at a time, and the interference pattern starts to show up. Moreover, this is a continuous stream, so even though only one electron travels through the double-slit screen at one time, there's always one close behind and close in front.

In the middle of the experiment, with the interference pattern already forming, and electrons which would (if we kept the detection screen in place) still hit in spots that continued to make-up the interference pattern, we remove the detection screen. Now (presumably), the electrons which were about to hit it can be detected by the telescope device set-up already behind the screen we've just removed. So now we should be able to see which slit electrons are travelling through and how they are forming this interference pattern.

Only we don't. Not only do we not see this, but the interference pattern stops. Which means that the photons which had already gone through the double-slit screen, and which would (had we not removed it) hit the detection screen in a place that we'd expect (knowing that it is already "interfered" with), have somehow "known" that they would be observed. And they hit the screen the way a particle would.

In the simplest terms, we have electrons travelling at the screen about to hit in the places we'd expect given interference. If we left the screen in place, they'd hit these places. However, when we remove the screen to "detect" the trajectory of the particles, they will not even be travelling along a trajectory that would form the interference pattern.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Legion, the alive and dead at the same time is what am is describing as in with trying to kill schordingers cat. Like with quantum bits. In binary it either on or off while a qubit is theoretically on an off at the same time so you can have a 01 at the same time.

That choice experiment shows that we are interfering with the experiment. It is taking the path of least resistance.

A particle being a wave means it is in a certain state. The hydrogen has been observed to be in these states. When the state collapses you still have the hydrogen.

When the particle goes through one slit it is going through in a wave state, which only hits straight because no interference. When it goes through two slits its still going as a wave but the second slit interferes. Even further it is by chance that you know which slit the particle will go through. Those first simple experiments show that the path of least resistance is being taken. Otherwise when there is only on slit some particles would get stuck on the parts where there should be a second or third slit to let more light through.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That choice experiment shows that we are interfering with the experiment. It is taking the path of least resistance.

There's a reason Einstein is reported to have said "is the moon there when you don't look at it?" The reason is that in QM, the answer is no. The delayed-choice experiment shows this. To borrow from a previous post:
Then let's try an experiment..

I have my photon gun. I have my double-slit screen, and my detection screen. I start firing.
I hit the double-slit screen with photons and I get my detection pattern I predicted (using a wave function).


And now for my poor version of graphics. For the "particle"-like photons, I'll use these ~ ~ ~ to represent them. For the "in two places at once quantum state" photons, I'll use these : : : : to represent them. This } will be the "double-slit" screen, and this | will be the detection screen.

So I start my laser gun up and begin firing photons-

~~~~~} : : : : : : : : : : |

I can't "see" the ::: (quantum states), but I detect them on the screen. I continue to do this

~~~~~} : : : : : : : : : : |
~~~~~} : : : : : : : : : : |
~~~~~} : : : : : : : : : : |

and it continues to work like I want. However, I have secretly placed my telescope lens behind the screen | but ready to view what's going on at a moment's notice (pretend that this |^ represents the camera behind the screen, but positioned perfectly such that it is blocked until I remove the screen and after that it is has a great view). So I am continuing to get patterns on my detection screen, and I know that the as the photons that are hitting the moment my screen is removed are being followed by photons that would, had I not removed the screen, continued to show the interference pattern.

Most importantly, these photons have already gone through the double-slit screen. Which means that they should have already been in this ::::: state, as they have already hit the screen which causes the interference.

In other words, in reality there are "quantum state photons" ahead of these which do hit the detection screen and I do detect my pattern. I will put in parentheses the "quantum state photons" that I do detect:

~~~~~} : : ( : : : : : : : ) |
~~~~~} : : : : ( : : : : : ) |
~~~~~} : : : : : : ( : : : ) |
~~~~~} ~~~~~~~~~~~~ |^

The instant the last of the three "quantum state photons" from the 3rd row are detected, my camera goes up to see the incoming "quantum states." Only they aren't there. Not only that, I have no evidence that they ever were. They should have been, because their pals in front are acting just like I predicted with my new "photons are in more than one place at the same time" wavefunction. But when I try to seem them land, I see a stream of individual photons all in the wrong places.

How did they know I would put up that camera?[/quote]

A particle being a wave means it is in a certain state.

Electrons or photons have hit the slits, and have already started to show the interference pattern as they show up one by one. But they are pretty close to one another. Which means that the last photon I detect that shows this interference effect has buddies behind it which should show the same pattern because they are in the same state.

They have already passed through the double-slit screen which creates the interference, and they are about to hit the screen just like the one in front and show the interference effect. So why, when I remove the screen, do the photons appear not just in one place, but in a place that none of the other photons did. They act like no interference occurred, even though they've already passed through the screen which creates the interference.

The hydrogen has been observed to be in these states. When the state collapses you still have the hydrogen.

Imagine you have different digital cameras on two different smartphones. And imagine you are taking a picture of your neighbor's pet. When you use one camera, you get a picture of a dog. When you use the other, you get a picture of a cat.

That's what "states" we get from observation. Depending on how we observe, the "state" is a cat or is a dog. What was it before we observed?

When the particle goes through one slit it is going through in a wave state

A wave is not a state. That's like saying you walk through the door in a human state.



When it goes through two slits its still going as a wave but the second slit interferes.

Then why can the "particles" which have already gone through the slits suddenly show no interference effects at all when I remove the screen just before they hit?


Even further it is by chance that you know which slit the particle will go through.
Actually, we only get the right result if we mathematically treat photons or electrons as waves. All those individual spots in the video clips I embedded? We can only predict the end result if we treat each one like a wave all the time.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
There's a reason Einstein is reported to have said "is the moon there when you don't look at it?" The reason is that in QM, the answer is no. The delayed-choice experiment shows this. To borrow from a previous post:


I have my photon gun. I have my double-slit screen, and my detection screen. I start firing.
I hit the double-slit screen with photons and I get my detection pattern I predicted (using a wave function).


And now for my poor version of graphics. For the "particle"-like photons, I'll use these ~ ~ ~ to represent them. For the "in two places at once quantum state" photons, I'll use these : : : : to represent them. This } will be the "double-slit" screen, and this | will be the detection screen.

So I start my laser gun up and begin firing photons-

~~~~~} : : : : : : : : : : |

I can't "see" the ::: (quantum states), but I detect them on the screen. I continue to do this

~~~~~} : : : : : : : : : : |
~~~~~} : : : : : : : : : : |
~~~~~} : : : : : : : : : : |

and it continues to work like I want. However, I have secretly placed my telescope lens behind the screen | but ready to view what's going on at a moment's notice (pretend that this |^ represents the camera behind the screen, but positioned perfectly such that it is blocked until I remove the screen and after that it is has a great view). So I am continuing to get patterns on my detection screen, and I know that the as the photons that are hitting the moment my screen is removed are being followed by photons that would, had I not removed the screen, continued to show the interference pattern.

Most importantly, these photons have already gone through the double-slit screen. Which means that they should have already been in this ::::: state, as they have already hit the screen which causes the interference.

In other words, in reality there are "quantum state photons" ahead of these which do hit the detection screen and I do detect my pattern. I will put in parentheses the "quantum state photons" that I do detect:

~~~~~} : : ( : : : : : : : ) |
~~~~~} : : : : ( : : : : : ) |
~~~~~} : : : : : : ( : : : ) |
~~~~~} ~~~~~~~~~~~~ |^

The instant the last of the three "quantum state photons" from the 3rd row are detected, my camera goes up to see the incoming "quantum states." Only they aren't there. Not only that, I have no evidence that they ever were. They should have been, because their pals in front are acting just like I predicted with my new "photons are in more than one place at the same time" wavefunction. But when I try to seem them land, I see a stream of individual photons all in the wrong places.

How did they know I would put up that camera?



Electrons or photons have hit the slits, and have already started to show the interference pattern as they show up one by one. But they are pretty close to one another. Which means that the last photon I detect that shows this interference effect has buddies behind it which should show the same pattern because they are in the same state.

They have already passed through the double-slit screen which creates the interference, and they are about to hit the screen just like the one in front and show the interference effect. So why, when I remove the screen, do the photons appear not just in one place, but in a place that none of the other photons did. They act like no interference occurred, even though they've already passed through the screen which creates the interference.



Imagine you have different digital cameras on two different smartphones. And imagine you are taking a picture of your neighbor's pet. When you use one camera, you get a picture of a dog. When you use the other, you get a picture of a cat.

That's what "states" we get from observation. Depending on how we observe, the "state" is a cat or is a dog. What was it before we observed?



A wave is not a state. That's like saying you walk through the door in a human state.





Then why can the "particles" which have already gone through the slits suddenly show no interference effects at all when I remove the screen just before they hit?


Actually, we only get the right result if we mathematically treat photons or electrons as waves. All those individual spots in the video clips I embedded? We can only predict the end result if we treat each one like a wave all the time.
We can't trick the particles that into allowing us to measure/observe the wave state. When the camera colappses the wave at the slits it will also collapse the wave behind the screen. The detecting of the particle collapsed the wave, that is how the particle "knew" because the material world interfered. Nothing spooky there. Now the delayed choice aspect is remarkable but you can see the experiment choice causes interference and therefore a different result. I still stick to path of least resistance, the detecting and observing causes the photon to talk a specific path. When there is a choice it is 50 50. Interfere and there is only one path to take because the particle is no longer subject to probability.
 
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PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
If experiments can't ever be finished, then how can they be done?
They're finished when the experimenter decides so - but the universe doesn't care. Just because the arbitary boundary of what we've called an "experiment" has passed doesn't imply anything physical, about measurements, WF collapse, or anything else.

Every experiment entails a split history. Gisin explains why he is so "dismissive with this view" for this reason: empirical methods applied to build useful models (i.e., we can predict the behavior of systems using the model) in physics as with all sciences and the fact that the many-worlds view has none: "I do not see any explanatory power in the many worlds view: it seems to be made just to prevent one from asking (possibly provocative) questions. Moreover, it has built into it the impossibility of any test: all its predictions are identical to those of quantum theory. For me, it looks like a “cushion for laziness” (un coussin de paresse in French)."
So it simultaneously has no explanatory power, and yet reproduces the predictions of QM?

Also, the main "explanatory" power of one massive wavefunction is this: neither minds, conciousness, or observation are ontologically special. There's nothing inexplicable or non-reversible about any aspect of physics - our observations are quantum processes just like everything else.

This doesn't explain anything - it is the result of removing unnecessary distinctions and explanations. Nothing magical or inexplicable or non-reversible happens when you open the box with a cat in it - you just get the rest of the universe entangled with the cat.
Basically, the many-worlds explanations take the results of the assumption that similar systems prepared in this universe don't cause the splitting and therefore can be used to develop the formalisms we require in every single experiment, but throw out the assumption while leaving the results. Yet as there is no meaning to the results...
The result is that your detectors go "ping" in such a way as to show interference bands consistent with waves, but which are built out of many point-like detections. Any model which says you should expect to get that answer when you set up the apparatus like that is valid. (Perhaps not sensible, but valid.)
If you can quantify them in such a way that you get accurate answers, you can say that you're detecting quantum pixies for all it makes your model "invalid."

Also, I don't see what assumption you're referring to. Why can't experiments that cause splitting be used to form models?

all the many-worlds theories have accomplished is to take a developed model, remove how it was developed and therefore any validity to it,
Models aren't valid because of how they developed. They're valid iff they produce correct predictions.

The formalisms were developed under the assumption that this splitting didn't occur.
And if we remove that assumption, the whole house of cards falls down? Because it doesn't appear to. :shrug: Can you explain why the process of science requires that the splitting doesn't occur?

...That's how we obtained the quantum formalisms we use: assuming that when we pick from the deck (observe), we haven't created two new decks, and only one of which we can observe such that we can know nothing about the result of the draws from the other deck. The many-worlds theories takes the statistically developed formalisms which require the non-splitting, use these formalism but claim the splitting occurs, yet offer no reason for the formalism or evidence that the splitting occurs.
We don't create two new anything. If you have a perfectly shuffled quantum deck of cards and draw the first one, there's still one of you, and one deck of 51 cards - what happens is that you enter a superposition of 52 different states. (Which do not interact, and so the 52 different sub-states evolve independently.)

In the case of more managable entities, MWI retains the fact that particles are indistinguishable. Every "deck of cards" is the same, so when we do the double-slit experiment and split the universe into however many hundred/thousand branches, every single measurement used the same electron.

The theories just avoid having to answer the measurement problem by saying there is no measurement and then refusing to offer any explanation for why the formalisms work or how the theory explains anything.
It works because the answer you calculate for photodetectors on the screen is the same as what photodetectors actually do.

(Or something like that. The model works because when you ask it to predict what you observe, the answer you get back is actually what you observe.)

Then there is no reason for the giant wavefunction. It's completely irrelevant and superfluous.
P1) Any interaction between any combination of leptons, quarks, and bosons is described by a WF.
P2) The universe is built entirely* of leptons, quarks, and bosons.
C) Therefore, there is a single WF to describe the universe's entire contents.

(*OK, maybe it's something weirder, but it'd have to be weird enough to not be describable by a wavefunction. :p)

What part of that is not true?


That's the many-minds interpretation. It's the "observation creates reality" view of QM. And like the many-worlds interpretation, all it does is explain a measurement/observation without evidence and by removing what allows us to experiment at all.
It's an interpretation - its evidence is that the model predicts what observers see in a way agrees with what we actually do see.

(It's also not many-minds, at least to the extent that minds are not ontologically special objects.)

We can perform multiple measurements at the same time, and as "answers" can have multiple values, even if the above were true it wouldn't matter.
So I can measure an electron's spin and get {1/2, -1/2}? I'm not understanding what you're trying to say here.

The -esque part shouldn't be there. There's no reason for it.
The interferometers from earlier doesn't make sense using classical mechanics.

We've been handed 52 cards, performed continued experiments with drawing and shuffling from the deck until we know what the deck is composed of (4 suits of every number and the face cards), and then pretended that every time we drew from the deck it was a different deck. Which means we have 0 reason for thinking that their are 13 of each suit, or 4 suits for each number up to 10, or any face cards, because we're now claiming we've been drawing from a different deck each time.
Sure we do - we happen to have determined that every "pack of cards" in the universe is identical.

Also, I'm not sure where you are getting the clockwork from: "Une intelligence qui, pour un instant donné , connaîtrait toutes les forces dont la nature est animée, et la situation respective des êtres qui la composent, si d'ailleurs elle était assez vaste pour soumettre ces données à l'analyse , embrasserait dans la même formule les mouvemens des plus grands corps de l'imivers et ceux du plus léger atome : rien ne serait incertain pour elle, et l'a venir comme le passé , serait présent à ses yeux." Une Intelligence somehow became "demon" (Maxwellian influence?), but clockwork? That I've not heard of and it sounds more like Newton.
I did mean the demon, except because I thought Laplace's was Maxwell's, I said Newton's clockwork instead. The point is that the whole concept of the universe predictable arises because its individual components are predictable, so something similar applies to a quantum mechanical universe.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
They're finished when the experimenter decides so - but the universe doesn't care.

Very esoteric, but not particularly useful.
"Evidence for the existence of an objective physical realm in the form of trapped quantum particles, manipulation of single quantum systems, and the detailed imagery of atoms is extensive and continues to mount. This evidence has brought to light a number of important facts. We can now explore the same individual quantum system over and over again and get the same data each time. Not only can we trap a quantum particle, we find that it is still in its trap after intervals of time where there have been no interactions. Single atoms can be imaged and re-imaged with the same results. Individual atoms can be ‘pushed around’, arranged into patterns (which can also be imaged) and otherwise manipulated."
Riggs, P. J. (2009). Quantum causality: Conceptual issues in the causal theory of quantum mechanics (Vol. 23). Springer.


We describe a system as having a particular state. We do not actually "know" what this state is (which is why many do not really thing of this as a "state" but as a possibility function that predicts experimental outcomes). It is derived on the basis of the experimental set-up and on established mathematical methods derived through statistical theory in very specific way so that when we interact with the system we can use the mathematical description/function with another mathematical function to relate the systems to the observations. Basically, the issue is the answer to this:

So it simultaneously has no explanatory power, and yet reproduces the predictions of QM?

It reproduces nothing:
"Many different and incompatible attempts to define a coherent Everettian quantum theory have been made over the past 50 years. However, no known version of the theory (unadorned by extra ad hoc postulates) can account for the appearance of probabilities and explain why the theory it was meant to replace, Copenhagen quantum theory, appears to be confirmed, or more generally why our evolutionary history appears to be Born-rule typical."
Kent, A. (2010). "One World Versus Many: The Inadequacy of Everettian Accounts of Evolution, Probability, and Scientific Confirmation." in the edited volume Many Worlds? Everett, Quantum Theory, and Reality.


It takes the formalisms of QM, throws away the methods through which these were obtained (e.g., the way probability is computed in quantum mechanics vs. every other field), and gives no alternative explanation for the use of statistically derived formalisms which it stole from QM.

Also, the main "explanatory" power of one massive wavefunction is this: neither minds, conciousness, or observation are ontologically special.

That is as explanatory as saying "God did it." Explanatory in the sciences means that you can use the theory to not only explain current and past findings, but predict future ones. A massive wavefunction is just another form of deism. You may be correct, just as the Catholic church or Sunni Islam may be right, but we have left the realm of physics and even of cosmology (except where cosmology and religion overlap; there is a monograph I have by two physicists on multiverse theory and how it is theistic).



There's nothing inexplicable or non-reversible about any aspect of physics - our observations are quantum processes just like everything else.

There's nothing inexplicable about Young Earth Creationism either. In fact, it's as easy to explain as the above. It just isn't very useful, and it is completely inconsistent with our findings. But it is one thing that a view have "nothing inexplicable" about it, and another to have the view be useful. "By and by is easily said", as it were. We have a formalism which is incredibly successful when it comes to predictions, but only because we have intrinsic within it that which the many-worlds theories seeks to eradicate and has failed for ~50 years.


Any model which says you should expect to get that answer when you set up the apparatus like that is valid. (Perhaps not sensible, but valid.)

Validity can be both meaningless and antithetical to the scientific process depending on its type. Even in logic, validity is nothing unless the premises are true. A model which uses formalisms developed under particular assumptions, and then does away with these assumptions, is not a "valid" model, in that it is inherently self-contradicting. The Born-rule tells us that given a quantum system psi, and given that we have described the state of that system in a particular way, we can use a (usually Hermitian) operator to relate the system we described to the experimental results. Without it, we cannot say anything about any experiment because all measurements are useless. But if we use it, then we have assumed that their is a physical system psi such that given the particular description of this particular system, our measurement tells us something about that particular system when we end the experiment. Whether you want to speak of collapse or decoherence is at this level rather meaningless, as you can't speak of anything at all until you have a way to relate the assumption that this "system" in Hilbert space is a physical system such that we can use the Born-rule to make meaningful observations as we've been doing for about a century.



If you can quantify them in such a way that you get accurate answers, you can say that you're detecting quantum pixies for all it makes your model "invalid."

That's nomenclature. The problem with the "no collapse" theories is that they have no explanation for using the probabilistic formalisms they do to obtain "observables". In fact, they can't be probabilities in the same sense (at least in many-worlds/multiverse and similar relative state interpretations) because they are not giving probabilities of measurement outcomes of a system but of one outcome out of an infinite number of (perhaps actual) outcomes.

Such theories simply exchange the measurement problem with the preferred basis problem. They don't solve anything.

Also, I don't see what assumption you're referring to. Why can't experiments that cause splitting be used to form models?

Because we have no reason to use the basic way in which the quantum systems are related to measurement outcomes.

Models aren't valid because of how they developed. They're valid iff they produce correct predictions.

The first statement is not correct at all, and partly because of the second statement. Why the hell do you think scientists ever came up with the idea of replicating experiments? Because it's important to developing models, perhaps (ok, and maybe because they like tinkering with things and this was a good reason to)? In this case, the "predictions" are produced by using assumptions that conflict with the theory. It's not just that the Born-rule is without any basis, but that it actually can't be true as is today in relative state interpretations (including many-worlds/multiverse) because the reason for the predicted outcome is incorporates an assumption about the probabilities of measuring a system in this universe/world, and does so in a specific way such that accurate predictions can and are made, but the many-worlds type interpretations have no basis for thinking that any specifications of any quantum system will yield any particular results as the theory itself does not include any mechanism or theory relating experimental outcomes to the system such that one outcome is more likely than infinitely many others.

And if we remove that assumption, the whole house of cards falls down?
Yes.

In the case of more managable entities, MWI retains the fact that particles are indistinguishable. Every "deck of cards" is the same, so when we do the double-slit experiment and split the universe into however many hundred/thousand branches, every single measurement used the same electron.

"how ever many". That's the point. MWIs still deal with experimental outcomes and still use probabilistic operators but the "however many branches" which the measurements create are unbounded. Not just unbounded but unjustifiable. The theory gives us no reason to use the Born rule because instead of assuming a single physical system exists which is measured at some (or many) points in one world/universe, it postulates a potentially infinite number of possible branches. According to the theory, the specifications of the system, which are derived from QM and from the experimental set up, never collapse upon observation but rather branch into "however many branches" they do. But the experiment has a specific way of relating that specific system and that specific experimental set-up and procedure with a mathematical operator that assumes, given these particular specifications, the same system will yield a given outcome. Take away this assumption, and replace it with "however many", and there is never any theoretically valid basis for using the methods we do to obtain observables.
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We can't trick the particles that into allowing us to measure/observe the wave state. When the camera colappses the wave at the slits it will also collapse the wave behind the screen.

Let's examine this a bit. We have these wave-like photons (I'm picking photons here but note that this is just for convenience; it could just as easily be electrons or whatever). We call them wave-like not because we ever see any wave, but because even when we send single photons down through the double-slit screen and into the detection screen, after a while we get a pattern that can only be explained by
1) Treating the photons like waves
&
2) Postulating that a single photon was delocalized (simplistically, a single photon goes through both slits every time). Without being delocalized, we cannot explain an interference pattern, because there is nothing that the photon can interfere with (waves do not interfere with themselves).

Having assumed that, we are able to predict accurately the patterns we get. But that also means we are assuming that once these photons hit the double-slit screen, they have no not travel through one or the other slit, but through both. They are not located (like a particle) in any place, but as there is only one photon, there is no possible way to explain an interference effect by saying the photon is a wave. Waves don't interfere with themselves, and particles are localized.

Which means that after the photons hit the double-slit screen, they have already "interfered" with themselves, and thus are already in the state that the photons ahead of them are right before these are detected on the detection screen.


The detecting of the particle collapsed the wave, that is how the particle "knew" because the material world interfered.

The material world interfered already (what do you think the double-slit screen does?).

Here's the simple situation:

A photon has gone through the double-slit screen and is about to hit the detection screen. We have two scenarios:
1) We keep the detection screen in place, and we see an interference effect like a wave.
2) Remove the detection screen just before the photon hits, and not only do we not see an interference effect, we see the photon in a place it cannot be. It has a definite trajectory as if we had observed it before we actually did.

Nothing spooky there. Now the delayed choice aspect is remarkable but you can see the experiment choice causes interference and therefore a different result.

Whether wave-like or particle-like, the photons have to hit the screen at a point, which means they have traverse the distance from the double-slit screen to the detection screen along a particular path. The interference pattern is explained by saying that a single photon takes more than one path, and in particular that it will not take the path straight through the slit.

Which means that, as we haven't observed it, a photon that has already gone through the double-slit screen should be heading along a nonlocal "path" or "trajectory" such that it will end up in the spots (the "lines" in the video clips) it is supposed to. And if we leave the detection screen, it will. If, however, we remove it right before it hits the detection screen, it is as if it travelled through one slit with one trajectory and was never a wave-like entity at all.


I still stick to path of least resistance, the detecting and observing causes the photon to talk a specific path.

Then you will never get the correct results. The interference effect can't be described in terms of waves or particles, as the former would require another wave and the latter doesn't have interference effects, and we cannot get the pattern we do (the interference pattern) unless the photon doesn't have a specific path.

When there is a choice it is 50 50.
This cannot be true. If it traveled through either path, we'd never get an interference effect. And it wouldn't be wave-like.

There is no 50/50, no definite path, none of that. You keep saying "wave-like" but waves do not have definite paths. Particles do. Particles have definite trajectories. The pattern of interference that we get cannot be explained if we assume that the photon or electron or whatever travelled through one or the other slit. All of QM, the entirety of quantum physics itself, is built around this notion of nonlocality (how it relates to realism is another matter entirely).
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
BTW, with the delayed choice experiment, what should we expect to happen if a particle goes through one slit, only to arrive at the other telescope? What would that appear as in our results?
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
This doesn't make much sense to me. Could you clarify?
The telescope version of the double slit setup appears to assume that photons (or whatevers) travel in straight lines from the slits to the telescopes, and therefore when a whatever arrives at the telescope, it came from the corresponding slit. Why is that true, if it is at all? If it is not, how do you distinguish two whatevers that come from different slits but arrive at the same telescope?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The telescope version of the double slit setup appears to assume that photons (or whatevers) travel in straight lines from the slits to the telescopes

No. It's just a simplified description of the delayed-choice experiment (which is already a simplified thought experiment). Actual experimental set-up is far more complicated.

The point, now empirically confirmed, is that you can set-up an experiment such that you can choose, after the experiment is finished, what the results will be.
 
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