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Elder Gods

Shuddhasattva

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
Vayu purana gives typically 'family tree' cosmogonical account that doesn't put posit them as elder gods (but may for vairajas)...but looking for something I regard closer to the essence of the ved.
 
Satyamavejayanti

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
Shuddhasattva said:
Rv 1.164.50 "Sadhyas"
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thanks for that, according to translation of Swami Dayananda saraswati, in his Bhashya he has said the Sadhyah are any person who help another on becoming a bramacharia.

Rugveda Pages - Welcome to Aryasamajjamnagar.org

and Dr.Ravi Prakash Arya in his intoduction to the translation of Yajur Veda of R.T.H. Griffith has provided this explanation of the mantra.

yajnen yajnamayajanta devastani
dharmani prathamanyasan/
te ha nakam mahimanah sacanta
yatra purve sadhyah santi devah//

The Scholars carried out the operation/yajna (chandas), i.e. composition of hymns by means of first operation i.e. by means of standardized language. The literary couplets composed during second operation/yajna became the first ever dharmas i.e. literary compositions in the literary history of mankind. The seers composed these chandas after appreciation of the properties of the luminous matter (naka) which were already approved by the earlier thinkers’.

See translation of Sadhya

http://www.spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=sAdhya&link=m

Also
Sadhya (Sanskrit) [from the verbal root sadh to finish, complete, subdue, master] To be fulfilled, completed, attained; to be mastered, won, subdued

In other words means perfection, and if taken in context i think Dayanandas explanation fits well.


As for Deva

Shatapath 3-7-3-6 vishvedevas according to Shatapath Brahman
means rays. Swami Dayananda has translated the word as rays, Devata is the subject matter of a verse, the topic discussed in it. All good men and beneficent forces of nature like air, fire, water, electricity, months, sun, moon, breaths, lightning, father, mother, teacher, preacher, and soul, which are beneficial to humanity are called devatas. They are not all living, personified beings as some erroneously believe them to be.

Also in Nirukta
Nirukta 2-25.

5. Devas is not the name of a king. It is the name of a learned
priest who officiates at a sacrifice.

HH wilsons translation is

The Gods sacrifice with sacrifice, for such are their first duties, those mighty ones assemble in heaven, where the divinities who are to be propitiated by sacred rights abide.

in his commentary he is not sure of what yatra purve sadhyah santi devah mean.


We cant find historical figures in Vedas, its tradition to keep Books of History (Ithihas) separate from books of knowledge (Vidya), Which is obvious in Hindu tradition.
 
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Satyamavejayanti

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
Shuddhasattva said:
I do not consider Arya Samaj interpretation shakhic.
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ok, I will not quote Arya Samaj, but will only quote Swami Dayannda Saraswati.

From Satyarth Prakash.

"God has been declared Omnipresent in the Upanishad and because He pervades the soul, the soul which is pervaded is distinct from God that pervades it. This relation can be true only of two distinct entities. Just as God is distinct from the soul, in like manner is He different from learned men, otherwise called Devas, because the latter enjoy the use of the senses, and manas, the earth and other material objects, space, the atmosphere and luminaries like the sun." VEDANT 1:1,20.
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Devaas are those who are wise and learned: asuras, are those who are foolish and ignorant; raakshaas are those who are wicked and love sin; and pishaachaas are those who are filthy in their habits
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There are no gods. The multitude of names like Indra signify not different Divine Beings but different aspects of one Absolute Existence.

Objector- Why not take them to stand for other object? Do they not also mean earth, heaven, devtaas as Indra,and, in the Medical Science drugs such as green ginger.

Author.~ Yes, they do, but they also mean God.

Objector - We believe that they only mean gods. Why do you not believe the same?

Author ~ What proofs have you support of this assertion?

Objector - They signify devataas* because the devtaas are manifest and also good.

Author ~ Is not God also Manifest? Is there any one holier than, or superior to, Him? Why do you not believer that these names signify God as well? When God is Manifest and Incomparable, how can there be any one superior to Him? There are many objections against your belief. Suppose, a man placed food before another and requested him to eat. Now, if that man were to reject that food look for it elsewhere, he would not be considered wise; because he rejects what he has and runs after what he has not.

The same is true of your statement, because you refuse to accept that the names like Virat, signify God - Who is Real and Whose existence is proved by every possible evidence - as well as the real tangible universe, etc.; whilst you readily believe that they mean gods - who neither substantiate your statement by authority nor by argument.
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what about the other references i have provided,

http://www.spokensanskrit.de/index.p...=sAdhya&link=m

Also in Nirukta
Nirukta 2-25.

5. Devas is not the name of a king. It is the name of a learned
priest who officiates at a sacrifice.

HH wilsons translation is

The Gods sacrifice with sacrifice, for such are their first duties, those mighty ones assemble in heaven, where the divinities who are to be propitiated by sacred rights abide.

and here is some information on Dr R P Arya

IFVS- Worldwide Forum for Vedic Studies & Research

Dr. Ravi Prakash Arya Demystifies Veda
 
Breathe

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
atanu said:
If I remember correctly, the asuras were called purva devas.
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I read that the asuras were displaced by the devas when they (they asuras) became intoxicated -- but, this was from a Buddhist tradition; I don't know if it is the same in Hindu lore?
 
atanu

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Odion said:
I read that the asuras were displaced by the devas when they (they asuras) became intoxicated -- but, this was from a Buddhist tradition; I don't know if it is the same in Hindu lore?
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There is a reference in an upanishad that brahmaa'a sons were all same. Those who took untruth as dharma became asuras and those who stuck with the truth , the devas.

There is another reference on vritta, whom Indra killed, saying something like: in earlier time vritta was Indra and Indra would become vritta.

The above are very approximate ideas that I merely remember. I did not have time and access to the originals. :)

Regarding Sadhya, I found the following in the web:

The Sadhyas and Pitas, the denizens of Pitrloka, are invisible forms of departed souls, and they are created by Lord Brahma.

"The Pitas themselves took possession of the invisible body, the source of their existence. It is through the medium of this invisible body that those well versed in the rituals offer oblations to the Sadhyas and Pitas [in the form of their departed ancestors] on the occasion of sraddha."

Srimad-Bhagavatam 3:20:42-43
 
Atman

Atman

Member
Vayu purana gives typically 'family tree' cosmogonical account that doesn't put posit them as elder gods (but may for vairajas)...but looking for something I regard closer to the essence of the ved.
Click to expand...
The concept probably died off early enough in Vedic development, that you won't find a whole lot more on the subject. My guess is these elder gods were probably something analogous to the titans of Greek mythology. I remember reading something about how in the Vedas it says the other gods actually feared Indra would overthrow them soon after he was born, I'll try and dig up the exact reference if I can. This idea though is still present in the stories of Indra slaying Vritra (who Agni, Varuna, and Vayu all called "father", and were hesitant to support Indra against in battle), and overthrowing his father Dyaus Pitar. In greek mythology again we find the Titans Typhon, and Cronus, to be analogous to Vritra and Dyaus Pitar respectively.
 
Atman

Atman

Member
Not too sure what you mean here, what exactly is "Ka"? Also I think it's fair to assume since they share a common origin that looking towards Greek mythology might give us an insight into some of the similar (albeit, not as well developed) ideas found in Vedic mythology.
 
Atman

Atman

Member
If I remember correctly, the asuras were called purva devas.
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Good point, Buddhist texts also refer to the Asuras as being the elder half brothers of the Devas if I'm not incorrect.
 
Shuddhasattva

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
Not too sure what you mean here, what exactly is "Ka"?
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The Mystery, the Identity of God. "Who?" it means (refer hiranyagarbha sukta and taittereya & aitareya aranyakas)


Also I think it's fair to assume since they share a common origin
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Is that a fair assumption?
 
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