Enemies of Israel

[InChrist]

Are the enemies of Israel also the enemies of God?

Psalm 83:1-5
'Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God.
For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.
They have taken crafty counsel against thy hidden ones.
They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:'

Yes, I believe the scriptures indicate that the enemies of Israel are enemies of God. God has a special purpose for the nation of Israel in the history of this earth. Does this mean Israel is perfect or better than other nations or that Israel obeys and honors God? I don’t think so. Yet, the Creator of heaven and earth has attached His name and identity to this nation being called the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - 9 times and the God of Israel - 203 times in the scriptures.

 

[InChrist]

Seeing as God allowed the Babylonians to carry them off into exile, I'd say no.

Throughout the OT it can be seen that God often used Israel’s enemies to discipline the people of Israel when they were living in sin and rebellion. This was so they would see the consequences of their sin and ultimately for their good when they would repent, turn back to God and again be blessed or returned to their land.

 

[metis]

Throughout the OT it can be seen that God often used Israel’s enemies to discipline the people of Israel when they were living in sin and rebellion. This was so they would see the consequences of their sin and ultimately for their good when they would repent, turn back to God and again be blessed or returned to their land.

So, supposedly God had many people killed through proxies, including innocent children, to send a message? That's called "genocide".

Again, we should always remember that scriptures in all religions are highly subjective, thus influenced by societys' opinions on what supposedly happened.

 

[JW Minister]

Yes, I believe the scriptures indicate that the enemies of Israel are enemies of God. God has a special purpose for the nation of Israel in the history of this earth. Does this mean Israel is perfect or better than other nations or that Israel obeys and honors God? I don’t think so. Yet, the Creator of heaven and earth has attached His name and identity to this nation being called the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - 9 times and the God of Israel - 203 times in the scriptures.

The nation of Israel over in the middle east was rejected by Christ according to scripture :

New American Standard Bible
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

So Israel rejected the Christ and had him murdered so Jesus predicted the worship would also be rejected and its temple destroyed :

King James Bible
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

It was destroyed just as he predicted and God chose a spiritual Israel at Pentecost .Today the Nation of Israel reject the New Testament,reject Jesus as the Messiah and says no savior has come. Israel god is the USA not Jehovah as their forefathers who came out of Egypt ,they are not a theocracy and dont rely on God but the United States for its existence

 

[Redemptionsong]

The nation of Israel over in the middle east was rejected by Christ according to scripture :

New American Standard Bible
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

So Israel rejected the Christ and had him murdered so Jesus predicted the worship would also be rejected and its temple destroyed :

King James Bible
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

It was destroyed just as he predicted and God chose a spiritual Israel at Pentecost .Today the Nation of Israel reject the New Testament,reject Jesus as the Messiah and says no savior has come. Israel god is the USA not Jehovah as their forefathers who came out of Egypt ,they are not a theocracy and dont rely on God but the United States for its existence

What other scriptures do you use to support this rejection of the nation of Israel?

 

[InChrist]

So, supposedly God had many people killed through proxies, including innocent children, to send a message? That's called "genocide".

Again, we should always remember that scriptures in all religions are highly subjective, thus influenced by societys' opinions on what supposedly happened.

Humans in their sinfulness are responsible for genocides, not God. God simply allows humans and nations to live out their behaviors with consequences, either positive or negative, while He works through it all to accomplish His perfect will and ultimate good.

 

[InChrist]

The nation of Israel over in the middle east was rejected by Christ according to scripture :

New American Standard Bible
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

So Israel rejected the Christ and had him murdered so Jesus predicted the worship would also be rejected and its temple destroyed :


Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

It was destroyed just as he predicted and God chose a spiritual Israel at Pentecost .Today the Nation of Israel reject the New Testament,reject Jesus as the Messiah and says no savior has come. Israel god is the USA not Jehovah as their forefathers who came out of Egypt ,they are not a theocracy and dont rely on God but the United States for its existence

I disagree. God made an everlasting Covenant with Israel and the OT is full of promises concerning their restoration to the land in the last days. The nation was temporarily dispersed and set aside for not recognizing their Messiah and rejecting Christ. God allowed and used their blindness to make the way of salvation available to Gentiles, but has promised to restore Israel when the fullness of the Gentiles is complete...


“For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God areirrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
Romans 11:25-32

 

[JW Minister]

What other scriptures do you use to support this rejection of the nation of Israel?

The nation of Israel was Gods chosen people that was proved as he led them out of Egypt with Moses but it was conditional they had to continue to obey Jehovah and over and over again they failed ,even when Moses was receiving the law they made a golden calf as their god and before they entered the land he promised many dies and wandered until the rebels all died and didn't enter .So His people was always disobedient. Over and over he sent prophets to warn Israel ;

English Standard Version
Set the trumpet to your lips! One like a vulture is over the house of the LORD, because they have transgressed my covenant and rebelled against my law.

King James Bible
For Israel hath forgotten his Maker, and buildeth temples; and Judah hath multiplied fenced cities: but I will send a fire upon his cities, and it shall devour the palaces thereof.


The final act was Jesus came to save Israel to himself but he told them his Kingdom was not on earth but New Jerusalem in heaven Israel rejected that they were under Roman rule and wanted the earthly Kingdom restored now even his followers who believed in him wanted the earthly Kingdom restored immediately but he told him that not his purpose;

New Living Translation
Jesus answered, “My Kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. If it were, my followers would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. But my Kingdom is not of this world

This is why the Chief Priests rejected Jesus as the Messiah they were looking for a savior that was promised to liberate Israel then not thousands of years later
As a result the Nation of Israel today still reject Jesus and the New Testament,

Rejection of Jesus - Wikipedia
Rejection of Jesus

Benjamin Netanyahu
Netanyahu rattled by Last Supper sculpture in Tel Aviv square


Christian Standard Bible
Psalm 78:59
God heard and became furious; he completely rejected Israel.

Christian Standard Bible
Therefore the Holy One of Israel says: "Because you have rejected this message and have trusted in oppression and deceit, and have depended on them,


King James Bible 2 Kings 17:20
And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight.

Now because of Abraham and Gods promises

ROMANS 11:26. say;
Good News Translation

And this is how all Israel will be saved. As the scripture says, "The Savior will come from Zion and remove all wickedness from the descendants of Jacob.

The nation of Israel over in the middle east says NO SAVIOR HAS YET COME

 

[metis]

Humans in their sinfulness are responsible for genocides, not God. God simply allows humans and nations to live out their behaviors with consequences, either positive or negative, while He works through it all to accomplish His perfect will and ultimate good.

I agree with the above, but that is not what you posted with its implications. At the least I'm pleased you corrected it.

 

[Redemptionsong]

The nation of Israel was Gods chosen people that was proved as he led them out of Egypt with Moses but it was conditional they had to continue to obey Jehovah and over and over again they failed ,even when Moses was receiving the law they made a golden calf as their god and before they entered the land he promised many dies and wandered until the rebels all died and didn't enter .So His people was always disobedient. Over and over he sent prophets to warn Israel ;

English Standard Version
Set the trumpet to your lips! One like a vulture is over the house of the LORD, because they have transgressed my covenant and rebelled against my law.

King James Bible
For Israel hath forgotten his Maker, and buildeth temples; and Judah hath multiplied fenced cities: but I will send a fire upon his cities, and it shall devour the palaces thereof.


The final act was Jesus came to save Israel to himself but he told them his Kingdom was not on earth but New Jerusalem in heaven Israel rejected that they were under Roman rule and wanted the earthly Kingdom restored now even his followers who believed in him wanted the earthly Kingdom restored immediately but he told him that not his purpose;

New Living Translation
Jesus answered, “My Kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. If it were, my followers would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. But my Kingdom is not of this world

This is why the Chief Priests rejected Jesus as the Messiah they were looking for a savior that was promised to liberate Israel then not thousands of years later
As a result the Nation of Israel today still reject Jesus and the New Testament,

Rejection of Jesus - Wikipedia
Rejection of Jesus

Benjamin Netanyahu
Netanyahu rattled by Last Supper sculpture in Tel Aviv square


Christian Standard Bible
Psalm 78:59
God heard and became furious; he completely rejected Israel.

Christian Standard Bible
Therefore the Holy One of Israel says: "Because you have rejected this message and have trusted in oppression and deceit, and have depended on them,


King James Bible 2 Kings 17:20
And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight.

Now because of Abraham and Gods promises

ROMANS 11:26. say;
Good News Translation

And this is how all Israel will be saved. As the scripture says, "The Savior will come from Zion and remove all wickedness from the descendants of Jacob.

The nation of Israel over in the middle east says NO SAVIOR HAS YET COME

You'd do well to look carefully at the words of Paul in Romans 11:20-32:

'Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high-minded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be of the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion a Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.'

 

[Redemptionsong]

I disagree. God made an everlasting Covenant with Israel and the OT is full of promises concerning their restoration to the land in the last days. The nation was temporarily dispersed and set aside for not recognizing their Messiah and rejecting Christ. God allowed and used their blindness to make the way of salvation available to Gentiles, but has promised to restore Israel when the fullness of the Gentiles is complete...


“For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God areirrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
Romans 11:25-32

You clearly had the same scripture in mind!

 

[JW Minister]

You'd do well to look carefully at the words of Paul in Romans 11:20-32:

'Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high-minded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be of the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion a Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.'

I quoted that verse

 

[JW Minister]

You clearly had the same scripture in mind!

The modern State of Israel May 14, 1948 did not fulfill Romans 11 why not?

Lets look at
Isaiah 66:8

King James Bible
Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

The verse is clearly foretelling the sudden birth of an entire nation, as if in a single day. But who would cause this birth is this predicting the establishing of Israel over in the middle east in 1948? NO.The next verse gives a clue: “‘As for me, shall I cause the breaking through and not cause the giving birth?’ says Jehovah. ‘Or am I causing a giving birth and do I actually cause a shutting up?’ your God has said.” Jehovah God makes it clear that the dramatic birth of the nation would be his doing.


Modern Israel is governed as a secular democracy that officially makes no claim to rely on the God of the Bible. Did the Israelis in 1948 recognize Jehovah God as the one responsible for their declaration of statehood? They did not. Neither the name of God nor even the word “God” was mentioned anywhere in the original text of the proclamation.

Here is the official proclamation of David Ben-Gurion, the leader of Israel’s National Council 1948:

"We, members of the People’s Council, representatives of the Jewish Community of Eretz-Israel . . . by virtue of our natural and historic right and on the strength of the Resolution of the United Nations General Assembly, hereby declare the establishment of a Jewish State in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel."

The modern State of Israel to this day bases its claim to statehood on a UN resolution and what it calls the natural and historic right of the Jewish people. Is it reasonable to expect that the God of the Bible would perform the greatest prophetic miracle in the 20th century in behalf of a people who refuse to give him credit? makes no sense.


In the year 33 C.E., the fleshly nation of Israel lost its claim to be God’s chosen nation when it rejected the Messiah.I already qouted what Jesus said himself :


Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her . . . Look! Your house is abandoned to you.

Its clear he rejected Israel and God chose spiritual Israel at Pentecost giving his spirit on this group as proof.

1 Peter 2:7-10.
To this very end they were appointed. 9 But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation,+ a people for special possession,+ that you should declare abroad the excellencies”*+ of the One who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.+ 10 For you were once not a people, but now you are God’s people;+ once you had not been shown mercy, but now you have received mercy.+

Of course the Nation of Israel reject this verse since it shows God has chosen another race as his chosen people because its in the New Testament and Israel rejects the New Testament.

Peter shows these were once not his people but now you are God’s people.

These at Pentecost were selected by holy spirit thus belong to a spiritual nation, their membership not being determined by birth or geographic location. The apostle Paul described the matter this way:


“Neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation is something. And all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct, upon them be peace and mercy, even upon the Israel of God.”—Galatians 6:15, 16.

Notice he said the Israel of God noting about a location or birth

Paul wrote: “He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.”—Romans 2:28, 29.

That verse helps us understand a controversial comment Paul made. In his letter to the Romans, Paul explained how the unbelieving natural Jews were like branches of a symbolic olive tree that were lopped off so that “wild” Gentile “branches” could be grafted in.

 

[Redemptionsong]

The modern State of Israel May 14, 1948 did not fulfill Romans 11 why not?

Lets look at
Isaiah 66:8

King James Bible
Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

The verse is clearly foretelling the sudden birth of an entire nation, as if in a single day. But who would cause this birth is this predicting the establishing of Israel over in the middle east in 1948? NO.The next verse gives a clue: “‘As for me, shall I cause the breaking through and not cause the giving birth?’ says Jehovah. ‘Or am I causing a giving birth and do I actually cause a shutting up?’ your God has said.” Jehovah God makes it clear that the dramatic birth of the nation would be his doing.


Modern Israel is governed as a secular democracy that officially makes no claim to rely on the God of the Bible. Did the Israelis in 1948 recognize Jehovah God as the one responsible for their declaration of statehood? They did not. Neither the name of God nor even the word “God” was mentioned anywhere in the original text of the proclamation.

Here is the official proclamation of David Ben-Gurion, the leader of Israel’s National Council 1948:

"We, members of the People’s Council, representatives of the Jewish Community of Eretz-Israel . . . by virtue of our natural and historic right and on the strength of the Resolution of the United Nations General Assembly, hereby declare the establishment of a Jewish State in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel."

The modern State of Israel to this day bases its claim to statehood on a UN resolution and what it calls the natural and historic right of the Jewish people. Is it reasonable to expect that the God of the Bible would perform the greatest prophetic miracle in the 20th century in behalf of a people who refuse to give him credit? makes no sense.


In the year 33 C.E., the fleshly nation of Israel lost its claim to be God’s chosen nation when it rejected the Messiah.I already qouted what Jesus said himself :


Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her . . . Look! Your house is abandoned to you.

Its clear he rejected Israel and God chose spiritual Israel at Pentecost giving his spirit on this group as proof.

1 Peter 2:7-10.
To this very end they were appointed. 9 But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation,+ a people for special possession,+ that you should declare abroad the excellencies”*+ of the One who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.+ 10 For you were once not a people, but now you are God’s people;+ once you had not been shown mercy, but now you have received mercy.+

Of course the Nation of Israel reject this verse since it shows God has chosen another race as his chosen people because its in the New Testament and Israel rejects the New Testament.

Peter shows these were once not his people but now you are God’s people.

These at Pentecost were selected by holy spirit thus belong to a spiritual nation, their membership not being determined by birth or geographic location. The apostle Paul described the matter this way:


“Neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation is something. And all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct, upon them be peace and mercy, even upon the Israel of God.”—Galatians 6:15, 16.

Notice he said the Israel of God noting about a location or birth

Paul wrote: “He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.”—Romans 2:28, 29.

That verse helps us understand a controversial comment Paul made. In his letter to the Romans, Paul explained how the unbelieving natural Jews were like branches of a symbolic olive tree that were lopped off so that “wild” Gentile “branches” could be grafted in.

Whilst l acknowledge that the lsrael of the new covenant is Christ, and the body of Christ, this does not mean that one has to reject the establishment of the Jewish nation that took place in 1948.

There is good reason for the order of events in God's timetable. If, as you suggest, a Jew must have accepted Christ before deciding to return, then the land would not have been necessary. Jews would have become Christians and would have seen no reason to establish an independent Jewish state.

Hosea 5:14,15. 'For l will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: l, even l, will tear and go away; l will take away, and none shall rescue him.
I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.'

These words are from the LORD.

Now look at Hosea 6:1-3, which gives Ephraim and Judah's response.
'Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.'

The revival of Ephraim and Judah occur before the raising up, and this is conditional on these people knowing the LORD.

This suggests to me that the revival of the Jews must take place in the land of Israel prior to the return of Christ.

 

[JW Minister]

There are several problems with your premise .[1] God has chosen his replacement in 33 C.E as I showed with scripture support.[2] The Nation of Israel has rejected that the Messiah has come and died for mankind.[3] They reject the New Testement teachings and Christendoms Rapture of Christ return [4] The Rapture teaching it self is a false teaching of Christ return.

"This suggests to me that the revival of the Jews must take place in the land of Israel prior to the return of Christ."

The apostles ask Jesus When will you Kingdom be established at
Matt 24
Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Yes ok many translations say his COMING but if you research the Greek:

coming in greek - Google Search

Strong's Greek: 3952. παρουσία (parousia) -- a presence,
The Greek word "parousia" is often translated as "coming" in the New Testament in Greek. ... It could mean “presence” but, particularly in an eschatological context, might better be translated “arrival”,”visitation”, or, of course “coming.”

Jehovahs Witness NWT Matt 24;

“Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence

So which Greek word is correct ? what difference does it make as to what they asked him of his coming or his presence ?

Notice I said what they really wanted to know was

When will you Kingdom be established at Matt 24-3

New King James Version
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

How do we know this is what they wanted to know and not when will you be COMING again?

Because the Jews were under Roman rule and they wanted Jesus to become King right then and restore Israel Kingdom on earth ,notice this verse as proof;

New International Version Acts 1:6 [URL='https://biblehub.com/acts/1-7.htm']►[/URL]
Then they gathered around him and asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

They were not interested in his leaving and ascending to heaven as he told them they wanted freedom right then and its the reason all the Jews rejected Jesus as the deliverer `.Jesus told them his Kingdom was not going to be on earth;

New Living Translation John 18:36
Jesus answered, “My Kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. If it were, my followers would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. But my Kingdom is not of this world.”

So why would they be asking him a sign of his coming when they knew his Kingdom was New Jerusalem in heaven.

So the correct translation is ours

“Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence*+ and of the conclusion of the system of things?”*

His Kingdom was established in 1914 which began his presence to the conclusion of this evil world.

Jesus then compared his PRESENCE to the days of Noah

King James says;

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

we know it was not coming as if a RAPTURE was coming when Jesus suddenly appear and wisk away those saved to heaven because to compare Noahs days to a 1 day event of a Rapture makes no sense

Noah preached for decades as he worked on the Ark it was not a one day event Jesus presence since 1914 compares to the days of Noah.

In order for Noahs days to compare to the Churches teaching of a Rapture, Noah would have built the Ark in 1 day gathered the animals and the flood came the same day becuse a Rapture is a 1 day event not a even that lasts for many many years.

 

[Redemptionsong]

There are several problems with your premise .[1] God has chosen his replacement in 33 C.E as I showed with scripture support.[2] The Nation of Israel has rejected that the Messiah has come and died for mankind.[3] They reject the New Testement teachings and Christendoms Rapture of Christ return [4] The Rapture teaching it self is a false teaching of Christ return.

"This suggests to me that the revival of the Jews must take place in the land of Israel prior to the return of Christ."

The apostles ask Jesus When will you Kingdom be established at
Matt 24
Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Yes ok many translations say his COMING but if you research the Greek:

coming in greek - Google Search

Strong's Greek: 3952. παρουσία (parousia) -- a presence,
The Greek word "parousia" is often translated as "coming" in the New Testament in Greek. ... It could mean “presence” but, particularly in an eschatological context, might better be translated “arrival”,”visitation”, or, of course “coming.”

Jehovahs Witness NWT Matt 24;

“Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence

So which Greek word is correct ? what difference does it make as to what they asked him of his coming or his presence ?

Notice I said what they really wanted to know was

When will you Kingdom be established at Matt 24-3

New King James Version
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

How do we know this is what they wanted to know and not when will you be COMING again?

Because the Jews were under Roman rule and they wanted Jesus to become King right then and restore Israel Kingdom on earth ,notice this verse as proof;

New International Version Acts 1:6 ►
Then they gathered around him and asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

They were not interested in his leaving and ascending to heaven as he told them they wanted freedom right then and its the reason all the Jews rejected Jesus as the deliverer `.Jesus told them his Kingdom was not going to be on earth;

New Living Translation John 18:36
Jesus answered, “My Kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. If it were, my followers would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. But my Kingdom is not of this world.”

So why would they be asking him a sign of his coming when they knew his Kingdom was New Jerusalem in heaven.

So the correct translation is ours

“Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence*+ and of the conclusion of the system of things?”*

His Kingdom was established in 1914 which began his presence to the conclusion of this evil world.

Jesus then compared his PRESENCE to the days of Noah

King James says;

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

we know it was not coming as if a RAPTURE was coming when Jesus suddenly appear and wisk away those saved to heaven because to compare Noahs days to a 1 day event of a Rapture makes no sense

Noah preached for decades as he worked on the Ark it was not a one day event Jesus presence since 1914 compares to the days of Noah.

In order for Noahs days to compare to the Churches teaching of a Rapture, Noah would have built the Ark in 1 day gathered the animals and the flood came the same day becuse a Rapture is a 1 day event not a even that lasts for many many years.

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To my understanding, the kingdom of God is not brought to completion until the return of the King of Kings, but that does not mean to say that the kingdom of God is not a present partial reality. Jesus stated in Luke 17: 20,21 'The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here, or lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.'

We play our part in extending the kingdom of God now by walking by the Spirit in truth. This is what it means to have faith; we are saved by grace and not by our own works.

Many Jews have yet to recognise that the Messiah will come from heaven at his return. But I think you're wrong about the comparison with Noah, and about the Rapture. The days of the son of Man will be like the days of Noah. It was not Noah's preaching that took the wicked people of the earth by surprise, but the flood! The coming of the son of Man will be 'as a thief in the night' [1 Thess. 5:2].

How do you account for the prophecies of Ezekiel chapters 36 and 37? Here are a few selections:

'For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.' [Ezekiel 36:24]

Notice that this movement of Israel takes place before the 'cleansing'.

'Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean:' [verse 25]
'A new heart also will will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you:' [verse 26]

Ezekiel 37:21,22: 'And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:'

Verse 25: 'And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.'

Then there is Daniel 9:24-27. 'And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:' With whom, and when?

 

[JW Minister]

[Sorry, if you do not use the REPLY button, I receive no notification that you have replied to my post!]


We play our part in extending the kingdom of God now by walking by the Spirit in truth. This is what it means to have faith; we are saved by grace and not by our own works.

Many Jews have yet to recognise that the Messiah will come from heaven at his return. But I think you're wrong about the comparison with Noah, and about the Rapture. The days of the son of Man will be like the days of Noah. It was not Noah's preaching that took the wicked people of the earth by surprise, but the flood! The coming of the son of Man will be 'as a thief in the night' [1 Thess. 5:2].

How do you account for the prophecies of Ezekiel chapters 36 and 37? Here are a few selections:

'For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.' [Ezekiel 36:24]

Notice that this movement of Israel takes place before the 'cleansing'.

'Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean:' [verse 25]
'A new heart also will will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you:' [verse 26]

Ezekiel 37:21,22: 'And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:'

Verse 25: 'And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.'

Then there is Daniel 9:24-27. 'And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:' With whom, and when?

To my understanding, the kingdom of God is not brought to completion until the return of the King of Kings, but that does not mean to say that the kingdom of God is not a present partial reality. Jesus stated in Luke 17: 20,21 'The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here, or lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.'

"To my understanding, the kingdom of God is not brought to completion until the return of the King of Kings"

I already addressed that that in my summary ,I said ;



His Kingdom was established in 1914 which began his presence to the conclusion of this evil world. I established this is what his followers were asking him in Matt when they asked when.

The Churches has him still coming as if the Kingdom has not been established and we are still waiting for Jesus to come which is the Rapture teaching.
The scriptures and the teachings of the Churches dont harmonize .
But first Ill address what Jesus said about the days of Noah

"But I think you're wrong about the comparison with Noah, and about the Rapture. The days of the son of Man will be like the days of Noah. It was not Noah's preaching that took the wicked people of the earth by surprise, but the flood! The coming of the son of Man will be 'as a thief in the night' [1 Thess. 5:2]."

Jesus compared his COMING OR PRESENCE to the Days of Noah
I already showed the correct word is presence and not coming ,he already told them he was not coming back because his Kingdom was in heaven so why would they ask him when will you be coming back makes no sense.

He said when his Kingdom is established he would appoint a slave on earth to feed his sheep spiritual food :



Holman Christian Standard Bible
"Who then is a faithful and sensible slave, whom his master has put in charge of his household, to give them food at the proper time?

Christian Standard Bible
Blessed is that servant whom the master finds doing his job when he comes.


King James Bible
Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.


So lets compare a Rapture teaching with Jehovah's Witness teaching only 1 is correct the other is false.

In a Rapture Jesus comes and takes those saved to heaven ,according to this passage when he COMES he will appoint a Slave or wise servant to care for his sheep to feed then spiritual food

Since he has not come yet this means [1] he has not appointed any one to care for his sheep so they are starving spiritually when is the reason for such an appointment
[2] When he does come at this Rapture why would he appoint anyone to feed his starving spiritually dead sheep for the lack of spiritual truths since he taking them to heaven there would be no need to appoint anyone on earth to feed his sheep all those saved are going to there reward makes no sense.

Jehovahs Witness teach he CAME to [power] in 1914 and then he appointed a faithful Slave to feed his sheep ,many fail to understand when we say he came and say we teach he came back in 1914 that not true he never left heaven

So our teaching in in harmony with the bible and a rapture teaching compare to the scriptures make no sense.

 

[Redemptionsong]

To my understanding, the kingdom of God is not brought to completion until the return of the King of Kings, but that does not mean to say that the kingdom of God is not a present partial reality. Jesus stated in Luke 17: 20,21 'The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here, or lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.'

"To my understanding, the kingdom of God is not brought to completion until the return of the King of Kings"

I already addressed that that in my summary ,I said ;



His Kingdom was established in 1914 which began his presence to the conclusion of this evil world. I established this is what his followers were asking him in Matt when they asked when.

The Churches has him still coming as if the Kingdom has not been established and we are still waiting for Jesus to come which is the Rapture teaching.
The scriptures and the teachings of the Churches dont harmonize .
But first Ill address what Jesus said about the days of Noah

"But I think you're wrong about the comparison with Noah, and about the Rapture. The days of the son of Man will be like the days of Noah. It was not Noah's preaching that took the wicked people of the earth by surprise, but the flood! The coming of the son of Man will be 'as a thief in the night' [1 Thess. 5:2]."

Jesus compared his COMING OR PRESENCE to the Days of Noah
I already showed the correct word is presence and not coming ,he already told them he was not coming back because his Kingdom was in heaven so why would they ask him when will you be coming back makes no sense.

He said when his Kingdom is established he would appoint a slave on earth to feed his sheep spiritual food :



Holman Christian Standard Bible
"Who then is a faithful and sensible slave, whom his master has put in charge of his household, to give them food at the proper time?

Christian Standard Bible
Blessed is that servant whom the master finds doing his job when he comes.


King James Bible
Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.


So lets compare a Rapture teaching with Jehovah's Witness teaching only 1 is correct the other is false.

In a Rapture Jesus comes and takes those saved to heaven ,according to this passage when he COMES he will appoint a Slave or wise servant to care for his sheep to feed then spiritual food

Since he has not come yet this means [1] he has not appointed any one to care for his sheep so they are starving spiritually when is the reason for such an appointment
[2] When he does come at this Rapture why would he appoint anyone to feed his starving spiritually dead sheep for the lack of spiritual truths since he taking them to heaven there would be no need to appoint anyone on earth to feed his sheep all those saved are going to there reward makes no sense.

Jehovahs Witness teach he CAME to [power] in 1914 and then he appointed a faithful Slave to feed his sheep ,many fail to understand when we say he came and say we teach he came back in 1914 that not true he never left heaven

So our teaching in in harmony with the bible and a rapture teaching compare to the scriptures make no sense.

The teaching about the rapture does make sense, I believe. What I find harder to understand is the idea that the 'parousia' took place in 1914. What has happened since 1914 to indicate such a 'presence'. We have had the presence of the Holy Spirit since Pentecost two thousand years ago, so what difference has 1914 made?

Lets take a look at Thessalonians 4:14-18.
'For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [ascend before] them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.'

This passage tells me that Christ descends from heaven. When he does so, the dead in Christ rise first, followed by those that are alive at his descent. Both are gathered up into the clouds to be with the Lord. Notice that there is no indication that they all continue to earth straight away. There may well be a gap, or delay, before the final descent to earth.

If you check out the uses of the word 'parousia', you will see that this teaching is consistent throughout.

This teaching is also totally in keeping with Noah and the ark. The ark represents Christ, and the believers are taken on board the ark prior to the flood, or destruction, that comes upon the earth. There is also a delay at sea, during the flood, before the ark comes to rest on dry land.

 

[JW Minister]

The teaching about the rapture does make sense, I believe. What I find harder to understand is the idea that the 'parousia' took place in 1914. What has happened since 1914 to indicate such a 'presence'. We have had the presence of the Holy Spirit since Pentecost two thousand years ago, so what difference has 1914 made?

Lets take a look at Thessalonians 4:14-18.
'For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [ascend before] them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.'

This passage tells me that Christ descends from heaven. When he does so, the dead in Christ rise first, followed by those that are alive at his descent. Both are gathered up into the clouds to be with the Lord. Notice that there is no indication that they all continue to earth straight away. There may well be a gap, or delay, before the final descent to earth.

If you check out the uses of the word 'parousia', you will see that this teaching is consistent throughout.

This teaching is also totally in keeping with Noah and the ark. The ark represents Christ, and the believers are taken on board the ark prior to the flood, or destruction, that comes upon the earth. There is also a delay at sea, during the flood, before the ark comes to rest on dry land.

"What I find harder to understand is the idea that the 'parousia' took place in 1914'


Jesus himself pointed to the precise date his Kingdom would be established ,remember this was the initial question as to when would his Kingdom be established not when would he be coming again I showed that was what his followers wanted to know Ill go over it again.

The question they asked was ;
Holman Christian Standard Bible
While He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached Him privately and said, "Tell us, when will these things happen? And what is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?"

I showed the original Greek was presence NOT coming they couldnt have asked him when would he be coming back to earth to set up his Kingdom since he made it clear his Kingdom was NOT earthly :


King James Bible
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Again he made it clear to them his Kingom would be established in heaven so they naturally would want to know when he said this as a major sign that his Kingdom is establishedl

Matt 24 -7
For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom,

Jesus was predicting that a would war would mark his Kingdom would be established
World War 1 was 1914 Jesus was actually pointing to this year Bible chronology also points to 1914 not just world war 1

If you want to see how bible chronology points also to 1914

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102005159#h=1:0-28:47

 

[Redemptionsong]

"What I find harder to understand is the idea that the 'parousia' took place in 1914'


Jesus himself pointed to the precise date his Kingdom would be established ,remember this was the initial question as to when would his Kingdom be established not when would he be coming again I showed that was what his followers wanted to know Ill go over it again.

The question they asked was ;
Holman Christian Standard Bible
While He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached Him privately and said, "Tell us, when will these things happen? And what is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?"

I showed the original Greek was presence NOT coming they couldnt have asked him when would he be coming back to earth to set up his Kingdom since he made it clear his Kingdom was NOT earthly :


King James Bible
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Again he made it clear to them his Kingom would be established in heaven so they naturally would want to know when he said this as a major sign that his Kingdom is establishedl

Matt 24 -7
For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom,

Jesus was predicting that a would war would mark his Kingdom would be established
World War 1 was 1914 Jesus was actually pointing to this year Bible chronology also points to 1914 not just world war 1

If you want to see how bible chronology points also to 1914

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102005159#h=1:0-28:47

If God's kingdom was only established in heaven in 1914, then l want to know what was happening in heaven from 33CE to 1914!