• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Enough Time for Evolution?

Shermana

Heretic
There have been numerous comments focused on the report, some (as you requested) addressing specific issues with the minutiae of the argument, others assessing what the report as a whole sets out to (and does or does not) achieve. All you have done in response to these criticisms is give us a regular page count coupled to a complaint that no-one is addressing the issues. This thread has done your credibility no favours.

Okay, for the second link (And the single population issue question in the first):

As before, however, the honesty of their argument can be called into question.

Note first the subtle conflation of "deleterious or even lethal" with "diminishing returns". The latter means that successive epistatic mutations add less fitness than previous ones - not that they are "deleterious".
Second, the research revealing these diminishing returns is restricted to mutations conferring antibiotic resistance on bacteria, and a paper not cited by Ewert and co. points out that

I"m not quite sure where they demonstrate that it's only "diminishing returns' and not actually harmful mutations in question. "Less fitness" can mean "reduced fitness" because of those. So let's see an example of where it actually proves they are only discussing a slow-down of fitness as opposed to harmful mutations. As we know, most mutations that aren't begign/neutral are in fact, harmful/deleterious.

Quote:
... if mutations have additive effects on resistance, a mutation that confers complete resistance to an antibiotic will provide a small benefit in a genotype that already has a high level of antibiotic resistance and a large benefit in a genotype that has a low level of antibiotic resistance.
In other words, diminishing returns go with this particular territory and are not necessarily applicable elsewhere.

Okay, but I think it's missing the point that those mutations often have a delterious counter-effect, if I'm not mistaken.

As we can see here, "Compensatory" mutations happen enough in small populations (not so much in large) to compensate for deleterious ones: (Which doesn't necessarily mean anything about overall survivability necessarily)

Analysis of the fitness effect of compensatory mutations

And even here, in your favor we see that deleterious mutations in SOME studies do not necessarily get in the way of adaptation.

PLOS Computational Biology: From Bad to Good: Fitness Reversals and the Ascent of Deleterious Mutations

A similar sentiment is said by this website, (Which happens to support eugneics but that's another story) in that deleterious mutations will find themselves on the way out.

Evolution is Now Degenerating the Human.

BUT

Beneficial Mutations are extremely rare.

http://www.pnas.org/content/98/3/1113.full.pdf

I have to wonder if those studies account for the general populations across the board.

Now if I'm not mistaken:

Maybe you'd like to discuss how selecting a species with large N and very small Ne for a probability calculation involving the expression Ne/N, and then passing off the resulting low probability as typical, is good honest science.

Is covered by the above, otherwise let me know if I'm incorrect in applying those links to this.
 
Last edited:

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Elaborate.
You talked quite a lot about negative mutations as if they truly mattered in the scheme of evolution. Unsucessful mutations are not passed on generally and thus do not contribute to evolution of a species. Beneficial mutations are extremely rare but they are far more likely to survive than neutral or deleterious mutations. So they do NOT affect the population as a whole.
 

Shermana

Heretic
You talked quite a lot about negative mutations as if they truly mattered in the scheme of evolution. Unsucessful mutations are not passed on generally and thus do not contribute to evolution of a species. Beneficial mutations are extremely rare but they are far more likely to survive than neutral or deleterious mutations. So they do NOT affect the population as a whole.

They do matter. Most mutations are either benign/neutral or harmful. The harmful ones MAY have a compensatory mutation but it's not quite established that these compensated beneficial ones are proven to actually cause long lasting adaptability. And when we do see beneficial mutations, they themselves often have a compensatory negative effect. The point is that these concepts indicate that the ability to dramatically change the overall structure within the estimated time frame is highly improbable. You'd have to have a LONG series coincidence of non-stop beneficial changes that weren't hampered by negative compensation to achieve what we see today. And from what we've seen in observed instances of so-called "Speciation", the changes aren't exactly evident enough to make the conclusion that this is possible on such a grand scale, that's the gist.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
They do matter. Most mutations are either benign/neutral or harmful. The harmful ones MAY have a compensatory mutation but it's not quite established that these compensated beneficial ones are proven to actually cause long lasting adaptability. And when we do see beneficial mutations, they themselves often have a compensatory negative effect. The point is that these concepts indicate that the ability to dramatically change the overall structure within the estimated time frame is highly improbable. You'd have to have a LONG series coincidence of non-stop beneficial changes that weren't hampered by negative compensation to achieve what we see today. And from what we've seen in observed instances of so-called "Speciation", the changes aren't exactly evident enough to make the conclusion that this is possible on such a grand scale, that's the gist.
Unfortunatly the evidence is against you. In the long time frame we do have there is adequate time to have mutations that are weeded out. You have to have an incredibly lucky string of mutations within a long genetic line to be able to create a new species without going extinct. This is why the overwhelming vast majority of species are exitinct. They were genetic dead ends that didn't catch this luckly break. Evolution is a process that doesn't rely on luck but statistical changes and the natural physical requirments that kill of negative mutations. What may or may not be a neutral mutation will spread through small portions of a population even without a specific advantage. If that trait becomes advantageous in the future then it will become more prevelant in the future.

From the time it took to split from our common ancestor with our closest living relative was about 7 million years ago. We have minor changes since then that have accumulated to become something very visible.

But it is just the sheer statistical fact that over millions of generations with millinos of births each generation we will have ample opprotunity for benificial genetic variations. You have admitted yourself numerous times that "mirco evolution" or small scale evolution exists and within a small time frame. What stops or hampers this change from continuing at the same rate or evne faster? Is there a limiter somewhere that provies a stopping point that limits genetic variation?
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Is there a limiter somewhere that provides a stopping point that limits genetic variation?

It's important to remember, at this point, that you're talking to a person who sincerely believes the entire universe and everything in it just poofed into existence out of nothing because of a story he read in a magical book. Who needs mechanisms?
 

Shermana

Heretic
Unfortunatly the evidence is against you. In the long time frame we do have there is adequate time to have mutations that are weeded out. You have to have an incredibly lucky string of mutations within a long genetic line to be able to create a new species without going extinct. This is why the overwhelming vast majority of species are exitinct. They were genetic dead ends that didn't catch this luckly break. Evolution is a process that doesn't rely on luck but statistical changes and the natural physical requirments that kill of negative mutations. What may or may not be a neutral mutation will spread through small portions of a population even without a specific advantage. If that trait becomes advantageous in the future then it will become more prevelant in the future.

From the time it took to split from our common ancestor with our closest living relative was about 7 million years ago. We have minor changes since then that have accumulated to become something very visible.

But it is just the sheer statistical fact that over millions of generations with millinos of births each generation we will have ample opprotunity for benificial genetic variations. You have admitted yourself numerous times that "mirco evolution" or small scale evolution exists and within a small time frame. What stops or hampers this change from continuing at the same rate or evne faster? Is there a limiter somewhere that provies a stopping point that limits genetic variation?

Basically presumptive reasoning that ultimately tries to justify the concept of a coincidential lucky streak of instant-success beneficial mutations that happen far more likely than should happen even at a stretch, at a far higher pace than evidence suggests, as a way of sidestepping the very point of the contentions.

What stops or hampers this change? Well first we have to prove that these changes can be observed to more than just small non-structural changes, without relying on circular presumptions that "It already happened". I've shown you before (unless it was something else) that they can't even figure out how the Bat Wing or Arched foot developed, despite such overly optimistic titles like "Understanding of Bat Wing Evolution takes flight", if anything what took flight is simply an understanding of the genes involved, not how they developed.

Now back to the actual review, thanks.
 

Shermana

Heretic
It's important to remember, at this point, that you're talking to a person who sincerely believes the entire universe and everything in it just poofed into existence out of nothing because of a story he read in a magical book. Who needs mechanisms?

Evolutionists apparently don't need Mechanisms because their argument is "We already know it happened". One side accuses the other of circular presumptions and cognitive bias but apparently thinks they're immune to it.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Evolutionists apparently don't need Mechanisms because their argument is "We already know it happened". One side accuses the other of circular presumptions and cognitive bias but apparently thinks they're immune to it.

Evolution IS the mechanism. What's yours? Magic?
 

Shermana

Heretic
Evolution IS the mechanism. What's yours? Magic?

[youtube]QKT3Qv-0Klc[/youtube]
EVOLUTIONIST ADMITS CURRENT EVOLUTION TEACHING IS BASICALLY BOGUS - YouTube

And apparently that mechanism isn't quite what people are saying it is.

I think I'll make a whole thread on this video.

As much as you want to believe it's all about incremental changes to the DNA, apparently it's not the case, unless you have an argument against what this guy is saying. (He is NOT a Creationist).

As for the Mechanism we espouse, I believe one day science will understand what's involved, just as you believe science will one day fill in the gaps of your own belief.
 
Last edited:

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Basically presumptive reasoning that ultimately tries to justify the concept of a coincidential lucky streak of instant-success beneficial mutations that happen far more likely than should happen even at a stretch, at a far higher pace than evidence suggests, as a way of sidestepping the very point of the contentions.

What stops or hampers this change? Well first we have to prove that these changes can be observed to more than just small non-structural changes, without relying on circular presumptions that "It already happened". I've shown you before (unless it was something else) that they can't even figure out how the Bat Wing or Arched foot developed, despite such overly optimistic titles like "Understanding of Bat Wing Evolution takes flight", if anything what took flight is simply an understanding of the genes involved, not how they developed.

Now back to the actual review, thanks.
It is very lucky that we exist yes. But its not impossible by any means. Astronomically higher odds are the fact that we exist on a planet in the goldly locks zone of a 2nd or 3rd generation sun that is relativly calm with 3 large gas giants with gravity large enough to pull in threats that normally would have destroyed our planet...and then on top of that we are in a spiral galaxy and in the livable zone of that galaxy. These odds are much higher. But here we are. We exist. Its not impossible.

This idea that "oh its unlikely" doesn't really mean anything. Either its possible or its not. If you have grounds to say "its impossible" then by all means provide it. However there has been no such evidence provided. If its not impossible then improbability isn't an argument against it.

We have seen observable change in organisms. This "micro evolution" as creationists like to call it. To say that there is a specific limit on this requires a burden of proof. The burden of proof has been met a million fold by the evidence supporting evolution. It is on the shoulders of those doubting it to support their claims and critique.

And rounding it back to the article...nothing in it suggested that its impossible to have evolution but rather the odds may have been against us. I however don't recognize it as a full fledged rebuttle. I am not a biologist though so I am not aptly qualified to find spcific problems with the critique.
 

Shermana

Heretic
It is very lucky that we exist yes. But its not impossible by any means. Astronomically higher odds are the fact that we exist on a planet in the goldly locks zone of a 2nd or 3rd generation sun that is relativly calm with 3 large gas giants with gravity large enough to pull in threats that normally would have destroyed our planet...and then on top of that we are in a spiral galaxy and in the livable zone of that galaxy. These odds are much higher. But here we are. We exist. Its not impossible.

What's not impossible is the fact that it can exist. How it gets there, that's another story. I've gotten into plenty of debates on just how highly coincidental it is that the astrophysics involved resulted in what we live in today, as you have pointed out, it's a favorite topic of mine, along with the perplexing anomalies that defy current models in the Solar System which I can get into in another thread. But if you want to believe in such a Series of Unlikely Events, that's your perogative. I just think it's a bit optimistic to put it nicely.

But the problem is the argument in saying that it's "Not impossible" is presuming that it happened to get here without being Intelligently designed. To presume and assert and assume that it just happened to happen without any outside forces requires an exponentially bigger leap than believing in an Intelligent Force behind it all, at least in my opinion.

As long as you can admit just how unlikely it all would be according to total naturalism, that's a step in the right direction. Expecting others to believe in such an insanely small chance of all things lining up properly on their own is where the problems begin, it's hardly much different than believers asking you to believe in a Designer in that respect. It really boils down to an interpretation of the available evidence.

Either its possible or its not....If its not impossible then improbability isn't an argument against it.

Let me know when there's anything that says it's possible on the scale suggested based on the evidence we've seen. If something has a .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance of happening, I guess you can say it's "possible", just like I can say it's possible that I will spontaneously combust if I do the hokey pokey, the issue is whether your "possibility" is "likely", so no, (edit) it IS about the possibility if you're going to make assertions about what is and isn't observed fact. Observed evidence says your possibility is not going to happen at all, and any argument of "It already has" is presumptively circular which defies the available evidence and data. The concept that "highly improbable does not mean impossible" may be true in regards to SOME things but actually goes against logical thought. Otherwise, there's really no such thing as "impossible", there's a possibility that the Internet is really powered by Shape-shifting hamsters from mars who are using humans like the Matrix for their brains to make bandwidth. And that probably has a higher possibility than everything turning out as it did from Naturalistic causation.

. The burden of proof has been met a million fold by the evidence supporting evolution. It is on the shoulders of those doubting it to support their claims and critique.

Wishful thinking that the burden of proof has been met, especially by a "Million fold". On the other hand, there have been many solid rebuttals to the "Science" involved, but it gets brushed off, handwaved, and misrepresented. As the video above shows, many of the claims of Creationists regarding their skepticism ends up being quite founded, the issue is whether others will be willing to admit it. It's a matter of interpretation of this so-called evidence, and that's where the SH%# often begins to fly.

We have seen observable change in organisms. This "micro evolution" as creationists like to call it.



Yes, we can see Micro-evolution and Epigenetics, that's much different however than the proposed changes that would be required for the Bat to develop its wings, or the Cat and Dog and Bear to have the same ancestor.

I am not a biologist though so I am not aptly qualified to find spcific problems with the critique.

Well if you want to take a crack at what it actually says instead of discussing general issues about the evolution debate, have at it. No need to be a biologist to take issue with something that's actually in the text. Just try to not misrepresent it. But if you don't feel qualified to discuss the Review, or the Paper it's critiquing, I can respect that if you want to just spectate.
 
Last edited:

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Isn't the place that is best suited for life be the place that you'd expect life to arise?
 
Last edited:

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Why are viruses and Prions not discussed? The big issue seems to be oh well what is the stage between life and non-life? Virus and Prions are essentially that stage. You have viruses which are composed of DNA and RNA the basic components of life, and you have prions which are proteins the catalysts of many life functions. We know (unless it has been shown it was a mistake) that it is possible to create basic amino acids given pre-earth conditions. It seems to me that we have the pieces, just not the path.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why are viruses and Prions not discussed? The big issue seems to be oh well what is the stage between life and non-life? Virus and Prions are essentially that stage. You have viruses which are composed of DNA and RNA the basic components of life, and you have prions which are proteins the catalysts of many life functions. We know (unless it has been shown it was a mistake) that it is possible to create basic amino acids given pre-earth conditions. It seems to me that we have the pieces, just not the path.

Please describe pre-earth conditions.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member

Shermana said:
Let me know when there's anything that says it's possible on the scale suggested based on the evidence we've seen. If something has a .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance of happening, I guess you can say it's "possible", just like I can say it's possible that I will spontaneously combust if I do the hokey pokey, the issue is whether your "possibility" is "likely", so no, it IS about the possibility if you're going to make assertions about what is and isn't observed fact. Observed evidence says your possibility is not going to happen at all, and any argument of "It already has" is presumptively circular which defies the available evidence and data. The concept that "highly improbable does not mean impossible" may be true in regards to SOME things but actually goes against logical thought. Otherwise, there's really no such thing as "impossible", there's a possibility that the Internet is really powered by Shape-shifting hamsters from mars who are using humans like the Matrix for their brains to make bandwidth. And that probably has a higher possibility than everything turning out as it did from Naturalistic causation
Shermana said:
Wishful thinking that the burden of proof has been met, especially by a "Million fold". On the other hand, there have been many solid rebuttals to the "Science" involved, but it gets brushed off, hand waved, and misrepresented. As the video above shows, many of the claims of Creationists regarding their skepticism ends up being quite founded, the issue is whether others will be willing to admit it.

Yes, we can see Micro-evolution and Epigenetics, that's much different however than the proposed changes that would be required for the Bat to develop its wings, or the Cat and Dog and Bear to have the same ancestor.

Well if you want to take a crack at what it actually says instead of discussing general issues about the evolution debate, have at it. No need to be a biologist to take issue with something that's actually in the text. Just try to not misrepresent it. But if you don't feel qualified to discuss the Review, or the Paper it's critiquing, I can respect that if you want to just spectate.

If a person wishes to successfully argue with the vast majority of science experts, he needs to either have a degree in a science, or have the equivalent knowledge of an expert. Very few people who do not have a degree in biology, or biochemistry, would be able to adequately critique Ken Miller’s article on the flagellum, and irreducible complexity at http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/design2/article.html. You are welcome to critique the article if you wish.

What is your academic background in biology, biochemistry, paleontology, anthropology, and math?

As far as the probability of life on other planets is concerned, I do not see how anyone could adequately calculate such probabilities since the universe is immense, and we have only examined a very, very small part of it. And, there is the possibility of other universes, which some physicists believe is a reasonable possibility.


It is a wild claim that a species (humans) who has not even found a cure for the common cold is able to accurately quantify the odds of life elsewhere in the Milky Way galaxy, let alone the entire universe. If advanced aliens exist, they would look at us as we look at ants. Ants build things, and fight wars, just like humans do. You might argue that humans are self aware, but so are other primates, and dolphins. Altruism has been noted among some primates. Elephants can get very emotional when another elephant dies, or when a middle sized elephant gets too rough with a small elephant.

According to an Internet article, a research study showed that 99.86% of experts in the U.S. accept common descent. The same article says that some of the most likely people to accept creationism are women, people who have less education, and people who have lower incomes.

Michael Behe, Ph.D., biochemistry, says:

"For example, both humans and chimps have a broken copy of a gene that in other mammals helps make vitamin C. ... It's hard to imagine how there could be stronger evidence for common ancestry of chimps and humans. ... Despite some remaining puzzles, there’s no reason to doubt that Darwin had this point right, that all creatures on earth are biological relatives.” The Edge of Evolution, pp 71–2.

Of the relative handful of creationist experts, a good percentage of them accept the global flood theory, and the young earth theory. Some examples are the Institute for Creation Research (ICR), and Answers in Genesis (AIG). Both organizations accept the global flood theory, and the young earth theory. That suggests that their religious predispositionalism has influenced their scientific opinions.

Do you accept the global flood theory, or the young earth theory?

I respect Christian inerrantists who come right out and admit their predispositionalism. Henry Morris, Ph.d., Institute for Creation Research, was an inerrantist. He once said that “the main reason for insisting on the universal Flood as a fact of history and as the primary vehicle for geological interpretation is that God’s word plainly teaches it! No geologic difficulties, real or imagined, can be allowed to take precedence over the clear statements and necessary inferences of Scripture.” (Henry Morris, ‘Biblical Cosmology and Modern Science,’ 1970, p. 32-33.

Stanton Jones, Ph.D., psychology, and Mark Yarhouse, Ph.D., psychology, are conservative Christians. They wrote a book about homosexuality that is titled 'Homosexuality, The Use of Scientific Research in the Church's Moral Debate.' Chapter 4 is titled 'Is homosexuality a psychopathology?' After discussing a lot of scientific issues in that chapter, the authors conclude with the following paragraph:

"Finally, we have seen that there has never been any definitive judgment by the fields of psychiatry or psychology that homosexuality is a healthy lifestyle. But what if it were? Such a judgment would have little bearing on the judgments of the Christian church. In the days of Nero it was healthy and adaptive to worship the Roman emperor. By contemporary American standards a life consumed with greed, materialism, sensualism, selfishness, divorce and pride is judged healthy, but God weighs such a life and finds it lacking."

You seem to be pretty bold, which is not difficult at a forum where you know that most people are laymen, and do not have degrees in science. If you actually want to engage in debates with informed people, you should enjoy joining Physics Forum. It has over 385,000 members, many of whom have advanced degrees in science. I doubt that you will go there since I do not think that you wish to debate science with experts.

Since I am an agnostic, I do not argue for or against the existence of God. As far as science goes, the National Academy of Sciences is neutral on the existence of God, and the majority of leading physicists do not believe in God. It would certainly be wonderful is a loving God exists, but it is very difficult to reasonably prove that such a being exists.
 
Last edited:

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Message to Shermana: Are you familiar with the Dover trial? If you are, to begin with, I wish to let you know if you do not already know that the judge is a Christian, and a Republican, and was appointed by a Republican president.

Consider the following:

Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wikipedia said:
Judge John E. Jones III

For the reasons that follow, we conclude that the religious nature of ID [intelligent design] would be readily apparent to an objective observer, adult or child. (page 24)

A significant aspect of the IDM [intelligent design movement] is that despite Defendants' protestations to the contrary, it describes ID as a religious argument. In that vein, the writings of leading ID proponents reveal that the designer postulated by their argument is the God of Christianity. (page 26)

The evidence at trial demonstrates that ID is nothing less than the progeny of creationism. (page 31)

The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory. (page 43)

Throughout the trial and in various submissions to the Court, Defendants vigorously argue that the reading of the statement is not 'teaching' ID but instead is merely 'making students aware of it.' In fact, one consistency among the Dover School Board members' testimony, which was marked by selective memories and outright lies under oath, as will be discussed in more detail below, is that they did not think they needed to be knowledgeable about ID because it was not being taught to the students. We disagree. .... an educator reading the disclaimer is engaged in teaching, even if it is colossally bad teaching. .... Defendants' argument is a red herring because the Establishment Clause forbids not just 'teaching' religion, but any governmental action that endorses or has the primary purpose or effect of advancing religion. (footnote 7 on page 46)

After a searching review of the record and applicable caselaw, we find that while ID arguments may be true, a proposition on which the Court takes no position, ID is not science. We find that ID fails on three different levels, any one of which is sufficient to preclude a determination that ID is science. They are: (1) ID violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation; (2) the argument of irreducible complexity, central to ID, employs the same flawed and illogical contrived dualism that doomed creation science in the 1980s; and (3) ID's negative attacks on evolution have been refuted by the scientific community. …It is additionally important to note that ID has failed to gain acceptance in the scientific community, it has not generated peer-reviewed publications, nor has it been the subject of testing and research. Expert testimony reveals that since the scientific revolution of the 16th and 17th centuries, science has been limited to the search for natural causes to explain natural phenomena. (page 64) [for "contrived dualism", see false dilemma.]

[T]he one textbook [Pandas] to which the Dover ID Policy directs students contains outdated concepts and flawed science, as recognized by even the defense experts in this case. (pages 86–87)

ID's backers have sought to avoid the scientific scrutiny which we have now determined that it cannot withstand by advocating that the controversy, but not ID itself, should be taught in science class. This tactic is at best disingenuous, and at worst a canard. The goal of the IDM is not to encourage critical thought, but to foment a revolution which would supplant evolutionary theory with ID. (page 89)

Accordingly, we find that the secular purposes claimed by the Board amount to a pretext for the Board's real purpose, which was to promote religion in the public school classroom, in violation of the Establishment Clause. (page 132)

The proper application of both the endorsement and Lemon tests to the facts of this case makes it abundantly clear that the Board's ID Policy violates the Establishment Clause. In making this determination, we have addressed the seminal question of whether ID is science. We have concluded that it is not, and moreover that ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents.

The citizens of the Dover area were poorly served by the members of the Board who voted for the ID Policy. It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy. With that said, we do not question that many of the leading advocates of ID have bona fide and deeply held beliefs which drive their scholarly endeavors. Nor do we controvert that ID should continue to be studied, debated, and discussed. As stated, our conclusion today is that it is unconstitutional to teach ID as an alternative to evolution in a public school science classroom.

Those who disagree with our holding will likely mark it as the product of an activist judge. If so, they will have erred as this is manifestly not an activist Court. Rather, this case came to us as the result of the activism of an ill-informed faction on a school board, aided by a national public interest law firm eager to find a constitutional test case on ID, who in combination drove the Board to adopt an imprudent and ultimately unconstitutional policy. The breathtaking inanity of the Board's decision is evident when considered against the factual backdrop which has now been fully revealed through this trial. The students, parents, and teachers of the Dover Area School District deserved better than to be dragged into this legal maelstrom, with its resulting utter waste of monetary and personal resources.

What is your opinion of that?

Please reply to my previous post.
 
Last edited:
Top