Epic of Gilgamesh vs. Noah Flood Story

[Neo Deist]

I enjoy history and studying different cultures. I try to keep an open mind and look at things from multiple perspectives. Through it all, I usually find that the simplest answer is the correct one, or at least more accurate.

The written account of the Noah flood story dates to around 1450 BCE. The written account of the Epic of Gilgamesh dates to around 2000 BCE, if not older. From a recorded history (or story) standpoint, the EoG is older than the Genesis account. Obviously this causes a problem for some religions that bank on Genesis being the word of God, and an accurate account of history. One of the methods used to explain this is that the Genesis narrative was first told orally before it was recorded in writing, and is therefore older. The problem with that is that other cultures also told stories, so they too had an oral tradition long before any written record was made.

It is at this juncture that you must concede that multiple cultures passed down stories by word of mouth, long before any written account. As to which one is actually the older of the two, Occam's Razor would apply here. Since both have been passed down orally, but one predates the writing of the other by ~600 years or more, then the EoG is the older of the two, and the Noah myth is merely a retelling of a story that was already in circulation with the nomads of that era and region of the world.

Edit: many historians now believe that the story most likely originated with the flooding of the Black Sea around 5600 BCE.

 

[lovesong]

Although the account of the flood in The Epic of Gilgamesh runs almost parallel to that in Genesis, there are a few differences that provide a good insight into the purpose of the stories. It is obvious that the two stories are similar with only a few differences, but those differences matter. The first major difference between the two stories is the way in which the builder of the ark is chosen and why. While Noah is chosen for his purity, Uta-napishti is not. When God sets out to destroy mankind, he selects one man, Noah, to survive and to prevent the extinction of the animals with the ark based on his purity (Genesis 6:8, 6:18-19). Enlil, however, shows no mercy and no desire to keep life on earth. He wants to wipe the earth clean of life with no intention on preserving any man or animal, making Uta-napishti’s reason for survival pure luck since Ea could have been heard by anyone (Gilgamesh 88-89). The reason behind this is to forward ideas held about the nature of these two gods. The writers of the two stories, coming from different faiths, held different views regarding the gods’ feelings towards humanity and the means by which the ark-builders were chosen and why reflects that. While the writers of Genesis believed that God loved his creations and didn’t want to completely annihilate them, the writers of The Epic of Gilgamesh believed that Enlil had no such desire or love for mankind and simply wanted them gone. This is further evidenced in the way the two gods feel about the survivors and the flood after it’s over. After the flood in Genesis, God is saddened and regrets his decision. To show his remorse, he promises Noah to never destroy the earth again and sets a rainbow in the sky as a reminder of that promise (Genesis 8:21). Enlil, however, is not so remorseful for what he has done. He becomes enraged when he sees the boat after the flood, stating that no man was supposed to survive (Gilgamesh 94).

The second major difference between the two narratives is the reward given to the ark-builders after the flood. While Uta-napishti is given eternal life (Gilgamesh 95), Noah is only given the permission to eat meat and the promise that there will not be another flood (Genesis 9:3, 9:11). This is done to show how the writers of the two stories feel about the separation between the human and the divine. The writers of The Epic of Gilgamesh feel no discretion in allowing the human and the divine to intertwine; Gilgamesh himself is two-thirds human (Gilgamesh 2), and is sought after by, but promptly rejects, Ishtar (Gilgamesh 48-49). The writers of Genesis, however, feel a great need to keep the two separate. Before Eve eats the fruit in Eden, she is warned that she will become god-like if she does and therefore will die (Genesis 3:3, 3:5), and when mankind tries to build a tower up to heaven, God stops them by scattering them (Genesis 10:4, 10:6-8), thus showing how the writers of Genesis view the human and the divine as two distinct things that should not be mixed. The flood stories are simply another piece of evidence to support these views regarding the human and divine.

Although the flood stories presented in The Epic of Gilgamesh and Genesis are very similar, there are a few key differences that prove to be very important. While they may seem minor, they truly are the means by which the authors of both stories conveyed important messages regarding the feelings that Enlil and God have for mankind as well as the importance, or lack thereof, of separating man and the divine.

I wrote a short paper on this for a class a while back. It's kind of weak but it relates, so why not.

 

[Corthos]

I wrote a short paper on this for a class a while back. It's kind of weak but it relates, so why not.

Thanks for posting that! That was a fun read. =)

 

[Tumah]

I enjoy history and studying different cultures. I try to keep an open mind and look at things from multiple perspectives. Through it all, I usually find that the simplest answer is the correct one, or at least more accurate.

The written account of the Noah flood story dates to around 1450 BCE. The written account of the Epic of Gilgamesh dates to around 2000 BCE, if not older...

Just a quick note.
Within the context of the Flood narrative as it appears in Scriptures, the event happened about 2100 BCE.

 

[firedragon]

According to Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones in the Creation was in 4004 BC, 1056 years from that year Noah was born (2948 BC). The flood happened 1656 years from creation so thats 2348 BC (Noah was 600). This is according to the biblical story.

The tablets found in Iraq dates the Gilgamesh epic to the bronze age (3300 - 2300 BC).

As a biblical proponent if you believe that creation itself is only 4004 BC (6010 ago now) then the stories could actually overlap eachother. As a believer of the bible narrative, the Gilgamesh Epic could have been a story born of the bible and then innovated. According to Victor H. Matthews and Don C. Benjamin in their book OT Parallels, Enkidu is parallel to Adam and DIlmun to Eden. In this case its very hard to say that the GIlgamesh story is definitely older which poses problems to the Bible believing religions. The writer of the Gilgamesh epic could have borrowed from the bible extensively. Adam and Eve being thousands of years earlier to GIlgamesh, to have those parallels the could have borrowed from the Torah.

If you do not believe the earth is only 6000 years or so old, then the Noahs story could be much older than depicted in the bible. Thus Gilgamesh could have easily been inspired by the biblical stories.

Well, these are just assumptions anyway.

Peace.

 

[Neo Deist]

According to Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones in the Creation was in 4004 BC, 1056 years from that year Noah was born (2948 BC). The flood happened 1656 years from creation so thats 2348 BC (Noah was 600). This is according to the biblical story.

The tablets found in Iraq dates the Gilgamesh epic to the bronze age (3300 - 2300 BC).

As a biblical proponent if you believe that creation itself is only 4004 BC (6010 ago now) then the stories could actually overlap eachother. As a believer of the bible narrative, the Gilgamesh Epic could have been a story born of the bible and then innovated. According to Victor H. Matthews and Don C. Benjamin in their book OT Parallels, Enkidu is parallel to Adam and DIlmun to Eden. In this case its very hard to say that the GIlgamesh story is definitely older which poses problems to the Bible believing religions. The writer of the Gilgamesh epic could have borrowed from the bible extensively. Adam and Eve being thousands of years earlier to GIlgamesh, to have those parallels the could have borrowed from the Torah.

If you do not believe the earth is only 6000 years or so old, then the Noahs story could be much older than depicted in the bible. Thus Gilgamesh could have easily been inspired by the biblical stories.

Well, these are just assumptions anyway.

Peace.

The earth is not ~6,000 years old. Practically every modern science has debunked that myth. Many authors, especially if they have an agenda, will try to spin details to make it fit into their respective belief "molds." If they are trying to build a foundation for YEC, you can pretty much ignore them. YECs will get their collective panties in a wad, but oh well. Facts are facts.

What we do know is that civilizations have dated much further back than 4000 BCE. There is archaeological evidence showing signs of agricultural as far back as 10,000 BCE in the Sahara Region. The Indus Valley has pottery that dates back to 7500 BCE and the maize crop can date back as far as 12,000 BCE in South America.

We also know that there were cultures that had a writing system long before the Hebrews did. The writings from the region of Sumer started around ~3200 BCE, far earlier than anything from the Hebrews. Many scientists believe that the catalyst behind the flood stories was the catastrophic rise of the Black Sea levels around 5600 BCE, with some arguments suggesting that it happened around 7400 BCE. There is evidence of an ancient shoreline that is ~400 feet below the surface of the Black Sea, discovered by Robert Ballard and his team. That is the same guy that discovered the Titanic wreckage, the Bismarck, and the Yorktown. That shoreline gives rise to the conclusion that the Mediterranean Sea spilled into the Black Sea in a violent manner around ~7,000 years ago. Once again, Occam's Razor applies as this is the most logical baseline for the flood stories from multiple cultures of that greater Mediterranean area.

 

[Neo Deist]

Just a quick note.
Within the context of the Flood narrative as it appears in Scriptures, the event happened about 2100 BCE.

Which was most likely copied from the Sumerian King List, composed around 2100 BCE.

 

[Neo Deist]

That shoreline gives rise to the conclusion that the Mediterranean Sea spilled into the Black Sea in a violent manner around ~7,000 years ago. Once again, Occam's Razor applies as this is the most logical baseline for the flood stories from multiple cultures of that greater Mediterranean area.

To expand on this idea further, it is very simple to see how ancient, primitive people that used stories as a major form of entertainment around the campfire, would recite the story of the great flood and include their spins/twists on its variations. All it takes is one orator to say "and the flood killed everyone," followed quickly by the inquisitive child who asks, "then how are we here?" The orator then comes up with this on-the-fly answer about a boat with one family and a bunch of animals on it. The rest is history...or pseudo-history as it were.

Genetics has already shown that we did not come from a single pair of humans, whether it be Adam and Eve, or Noah's lineage. It takes an estimated 10,000 "originals" in order to account for the diversity in the human population world wide.

 

[gnostic]

The written account of the Noah flood story dates to around 1450 BCE.

Except that the Genesis' Noah wasn't written in 1450 BCE.

There are no evidences (inscriptions, fragments, etc) to support that ANYTHING in the bible was written in the Bronze Age. All textual evidences showed that it was written during the Iron Age, meaning AFTER 1000 BCE.

Where is your sources that give the date of around 1450 BCE?

Edit: many historians now believe that the story most likely originated with the flooding of the Black Sea around 5600 BCE.

The Black Sea deluge of 5600 BCE is merely a hypothesis in which there are more evidences going against this hypothesis than for it.

And none of the evidences for a massive flood in a single event (in 5600 BCE), being conclusive or definitive.

There are more evidences for the Black Sea flooding being a very gradual over a long period of time (spanning over a number of centuries).

Second, the 5600 BCE would be too far back in time for any people to tell of it, in a oral tradition.

Third, this Black Sea deluge would have occurred

And, you are forgetting that the Mesopotamia, when not suffering droughts, would flood annually in the regions, with some flood being more devastating than others. These annual inundations actually help with irrigation and agriculture, that's why the Bronze Age (3rd millennium BCE) Sumerian civilization prospered.

There is one devastating flood in Sumer, which occurred in the early 3rd millennium BCE - about 2900 BCE - was most likely where all the flood myths of successive civilizations - Sumerian, Akkadian, Babylonian and Assyrian - come from.

If you want to use the oral tradition argument for the Epic vs Genesis, then it is this 2900 BCE flood, that was likely candidate for the myth of Ziusudra-Atrahasis-Utanaphistim and Noahic myth, not the 5600 Black Sea flood.

Second, the Sumerian myth from Eridu Genesis (and hinted in the Death of Gilgames) only described a river flood, while the Akkadian-Old Babylonian Epic of Atrahasis and the Neo-Babylonian & Neo-Assyrian epic Gilgamesh both described sea flood. By the time, they began writing about Noah, the writers exaggerated even more, and described the Flood that devastated the entire earth - a global flood.

I believed that with each retelling of myth, the authors and scribes would exaggerate even more.

And finally and lastly, there were no global flood at any time in human history, and definitely none occurred in 3rd millennium BCE Bronze Age.

When it come to history and archaeology, the Genesis Flood is a fraud. No such (global) flood occurred.

Had the Flood of such magnitude had occurred, it would have completely disrupted every civilizations and every cultures that would have taken centuries to recover.

If we look at Egypt for example. Almost every succession in the Old Kingdom, built tombs, particularly pyramids, from the 3rd dynasty (2686 – 2613 BCE) to the 6th dynasty (2345 – 2181 BCE).

If the Flood had occurred about 2340 BCE, then the post-flood new Egyptian would be AND SHOULD BE completely different to the pre-Flood older Egyptian culture. Do you understand what I am saying?

And yet, Egyptian culture was pretty much the same and unchanged, from the 3rd dynasty to the 6th dynasty. Their arts and crafts were the same. Their writing systems - both hieroglyphs and hieratic - were unchanged, which would suggest that the language were the same for these people since about 3000 BCE. The pre- and post-Deluge people themselves would be different in Egypt.

But according to Genesis, in book 10, Egypt didn't exist until after Noah and family left the Ark, and Ham fathered Egypt (Mizraim in KJV). If that's true, then it would have been years before Egypt become civilization again, because you would have to wait for Egypt-Mizraim being born, grow up to adulthood, before (Egypt-Mizraim) becoming a father himself, and sired children of his own.

Let face it. Forget about oral tradition, the Bible, particularly Genesis' Deluge and its aftermath are unrealistic and unhistorical.

 

[Neo Deist]

Except that the Genesis' Noah wasn't written in 1450 BCE.

There are no evidences (inscriptions, fragments, etc) to support that ANYTHING in the bible was written in the Bronze Age. All textual evidences showed that it was written during the Iron Age, meaning AFTER 1000 BCE.

Where is your sources that give the date of around 1450 BCE?



The Black Sea deluge of 5600 BCE is merely a hypothesis in which there are more evidences going against this hypothesis than for it.

And none of the evidences for a massive flood in a single event (in 5600 BCE), being conclusive or definitive.

There are more evidences for the Black Sea flooding being a very gradual over a long period of time (spanning over a number of centuries).

Second, the 5600 BCE would be too far back in time for any people to tell of it, in a oral tradition.

Third, this Black Sea deluge would have occurred

And, you are forgetting that the Mesopotamia, when not suffering droughts, would flood annually in the regions, with some flood being more devastating than others. These annual inundations actually help with irrigation and agriculture, that's why the Bronze Age (3rd millennium BCE) Sumerian civilization prospered.

There is one devastating flood in Sumer, which occurred in the early 3rd millennium BCE - about 2900 BCE - was most likely where all the flood myths of successive civilizations - Sumerian, Akkadian, Babylonian and Assyrian - come from.

If you want to use the oral tradition argument for the Epic vs Genesis, then it is this 2900 BCE flood, that was likely candidate for the myth of Ziusudra-Atrahasis-Utanaphistim and Noahic myth, not the 5600 Black Sea flood.

Second, the Sumerian myth from Eridu Genesis (and hinted in the Death of Gilgames) only described a river flood, while the Akkadian-Old Babylonian Epic of Atrahasis and the Neo-Babylonian & Neo-Assyrian epic Gilgamesh both described sea flood. By the time, they began writing about Noah, the writers exaggerated even more, and described the Flood that devastated the entire earth - a global flood.

I believed that with each retelling of myth, the authors and scribes would exaggerate even more.

And finally and lastly, there were no global flood at any time in human history, and definitely none occurred in 3rd millennium BCE Bronze Age.

When it come to history and archaeology, the Genesis Flood is a fraud. No such (global) flood occurred.

Had the Flood of such magnitude had occurred, it would have completely disrupted every civilizations and every cultures that would have taken centuries to recover.

If we look at Egypt for example. Almost every succession in the Old Kingdom, built tombs, particularly pyramids, from the 3rd dynasty (2686 – 2613 BCE) to the 6th dynasty (2345 – 2181 BCE).

If the Flood had occurred about 2340 BCE, then the post-flood new Egyptian would be AND SHOULD BE completely different to the pre-Flood older Egyptian culture. Do you understand what I am saying?

And yet, Egyptian culture was pretty much the same and unchanged, from the 3rd dynasty to the 6th dynasty. Their arts and crafts were the same. Their writing systems - both hieroglyphs and hieratic - were unchanged, which would suggest that the language were the same for these people since about 3000 BCE. The pre- and post-Deluge people themselves would be different in Egypt.

But according to Genesis, in book 10, Egypt didn't exist until after Noah and family left the Ark, and Ham fathered Egypt (Mizraim in KJV). If that's true, then it would have been years before Egypt become civilization again, because you would have to wait for Egypt-Mizraim being born, grow up to adulthood, before (Egypt-Mizraim) becoming a father himself, and sired children of his own.

Let face it. Forget about oral tradition, the Bible, particularly Genesis' Deluge and its aftermath are unrealistic and unhistorical.

You are preaching to the choir, here. There was no global flood, the Bible is not literal, and we don't come from Adam and Eve.

 

[firedragon]

The earth is not ~6,000 years old. Practically every modern science has debunked that myth. Many authors, especially if they have an agenda, will try to spin details to make it fit into their respective belief "molds." If they are trying to build a foundation for YEC, you can pretty much ignore them. YECs will get their collective panties in a wad, but oh well. Facts are facts.

What we do know is that civilizations have dated much further back than 4000 BCE. There is archaeological evidence showing signs of agricultural as far back as 10,000 BCE in the Sahara Region. The Indus Valley has pottery that dates back to 7500 BCE and the maize crop can date back as far as 12,000 BCE in South America.

We also know that there were cultures that had a writing system long before the Hebrews did. The writings from the region of Sumer started around ~3200 BCE, far earlier than anything from the Hebrews. Many scientists believe that the catalyst behind the flood stories was the catastrophic rise of the Black Sea levels around 5600 BCE, with some arguments suggesting that it happened around 7400 BCE. There is evidence of an ancient shoreline that is ~400 feet below the surface of the Black Sea, discovered by Robert Ballard and his team. That is the same guy that discovered the Titanic wreckage, the Bismarck, and the Yorktown. That shoreline gives rise to the conclusion that the Mediterranean Sea spilled into the Black Sea in a violent manner around ~7,000 years ago. Once again, Occam's Razor applies as this is the most logical baseline for the flood stories from multiple cultures of that greater Mediterranean area.

Of course. Mate, I believe that, I am a Muslim, I dont believe the world is 6k years old.

 

[firedragon]

You are preaching to the choir, here. There was no global flood, the Bible is not literal, and we don't come from Adam and Eve.

Dont you see that what you say is not relevant to the topic. Also, whatever knowledge from studies anyone would want to contribute here you have ended by this.

Peace.

 

[Etritonakin]

I enjoy history and studying different cultures. I try to keep an open mind and look at things from multiple perspectives. Through it all, I usually find that the simplest answer is the correct one, or at least more accurate.

The written account of the Noah flood story dates to around 1450 BCE. The written account of the Epic of Gilgamesh dates to around 2000 BCE, if not older. From a recorded history (or story) standpoint, the EoG is older than the Genesis account. Obviously this causes a problem for some religions that bank on Genesis being the word of God, and an accurate account of history. One of the methods used to explain this is that the Genesis narrative was first told orally before it was recorded in writing, and is therefore older. The problem with that is that other cultures also told stories, so they too had an oral tradition long before any written record was made.

It is at this juncture that you must concede that multiple cultures passed down stories by word of mouth, long before any written account. As to which one is actually the older of the two, Occam's Razor would apply here. Since both have been passed down orally, but one predates the writing of the other by ~600 years or more, then the EoG is the older of the two, and the Noah myth is merely a retelling of a story that was already in circulation with the nomads of that era and region of the world.

Edit: many historians now believe that the story most likely originated with the flooding of the Black Sea around 5600 BCE.

You can find dragons in pretty much every culture. Doesn't mean they all saw dragons or told each other about dragons.

When new situations arise, many people in different places come up with the same joke about them. We all think quite similarly.

However..... You are discussing written accounts. Technically, surviving written accounts. Before that there was oral history. It is possible both are rooted in actual events -perhaps the same event which preceded them both. When there are actual events, stories differ. Some might be more accurate than others. Some cultures might take accuracy seriously -others might like to tell tall tales.

We really don't know exactly what happened.

 

[gnostic]

You are preaching to the choir, here. There was no global flood, the Bible is not literal, and we don't come from Adam and Eve.

But I would still like to know where you got the 1450-number from?

Second, I know that some people try to connect the Black Sea deluge to the Bible's Noah, but I am not sure the "oral tradition" argument work with the Black Sea deluge.

 

[gnostic]

As a biblical proponent if you believe that creation itself is only 4004 BC (6010 ago now) then the stories could actually overlap eachother. As a believer of the bible narrative, the Gilgamesh Epic could have been a story born of the bible and then innovated.

The part, highlighted in red:

No. It's highly unlikely, given the fact that all written works about the Genesis were not composed till after the Bronze Age, and the evidences for oral tradition being older than the Epic of Gilgamesh is nonexistent.

It is not possible for the biblical account being older than the Epic.

There are evidences that the Epic of Gilgamesh found their way west, due to the popularity of Sumerian-Akkadian literature, especially of Gilgamesh. Fragments of tablets were found in the Bronze Age Canaanite city of Megiddo. The fragmented tablets were dated to the mid-2nd millennium BCE.

So if the Canaanites of that time, knew of the story, it is more than likely they know many others from Middle Babylonian literature. And if the Canaanites knew, then most it is most likely the Iron Age Israelites knew of the Babylonian flood story.

The story of Gilgamesh also found its way to Ugarit, a city in north-west Syria, known now as Ras Shamra, written around the same time as the Megiddo tablets.

Tablets were found in the Hittite city of Hattusha (Bogazkoy). The epic even found its way in Egypt.

If any culture influencing who, it would be the Babylonian flood myth that influencing Israelites.

 

[firedragon]

The part, highlighted in red:

No. It's highly unlikely, given the fact that all written works about the Genesis were not composed till after the Bronze Age, and the evidences for oral tradition being older than the Epic of Gilgamesh is nonexistent.

It is not possible for the biblical account being older than the Epic.

There are evidences that the Epic of Gilgamesh found their way west, due to the popularity of Sumerian-Akkadian literature, especially of Gilgamesh. Fragments of tablets were found in the Bronze Age Canaanite city of Megiddo. The fragmented tablets were dated to the mid-2nd millennium BCE.

So if the Canaanites of that time, knew of the story, it is more than likely they know many others from Middle Babylonian literature. And if the Canaanites knew, then most it is most likely the Iron Age Israelites knew of the Babylonian flood story.

The story of Gilgamesh also found its way to Ugarit, a city in north-west Syria, known now as Ras Shamra, written around the same time as the Megiddo tablets.

Tablets were found in the Hittite city of Hattusha (Bogazkoy). The epic even found its way in Egypt.

If any culture influencing who, it would be the Babylonian flood myth that influencing Israelites.

Did you see the beginning of my post you quoted bro? It says "As a bible proponent".

Historical findings are a complete different story.

 

[Neo Deist]

Did you see the beginning of my post you quoted bro? It says "As a bible proponent".

Historical findings are a complete different story.

Ok so you have biblical (fictional) accounts and historical accounts that can be backed by scientific evidence. History and science win every time.

 

[firedragon]

Ok so you have biblical (fictional) accounts and historical accounts that can be backed by scientific evidence. History and science win every time.

Lol. No, thats not what I meant.

Nevertheless,

Peace.

 

[Tumah]

Which was most likely copied from the Sumerian King List, composed around 2100 BCE.

Either way. Not getting involved in another one of these. Just pointing it out.

 

[Neo Deist]

Except that the Genesis' Noah wasn't written in 1450 BCE.

There are no evidences (inscriptions, fragments, etc) to support that ANYTHING in the bible was written in the Bronze Age. All textual evidences showed that it was written during the Iron Age, meaning AFTER 1000 BCE.

Where is your sources that give the date of around 1450 BCE?

I do not recall the exact source, I just remember it being taught in theology class back in the day. I now see what you are saying about after 1000 BCE, with regard to modern scholarship. That just further reiterates that it is a copy of EoG.