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Epiphany I had about the Vanir

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
To start, I'm not saying that this is in any way factual or historical. Rather, this is just an epiphany based on something I noticed regarding Frey, and I wondered if it might be part of what defines the Vanir.

One of Frey's earlier names is Ing, or Yngvi-Freyr. If I read the name right, that roughly means "Lord of the Yngvi", which was, of course, the name of the oldest Swedish dynasty. I suspect, however, based on what little I can gather from some brief research, particularly the concept of the Ingvaeonic group of Tribes, that this may have also been the name of a specific Tribe, for whom Frey was a Patron.

Another reason why I suspect this is that the Saxons had a God named "Saxnot". While I don't know of any attestation of this God outside of a baptismal oath not to worship him and a few others, the name makes me wonder if this was the Saxons' Tribal Patron.

If true, then that's two Germanic Tribes who named themselves for their Gods.

Then I started thinking about the Frisii. While the accepted likely meaning of the word, according to the Online Etymology Dictionary, meant "curly headed", I realized that the name does sound an awful lot like the named "Frija" whenever I hear the second Merseburger Charm, which was the name for the Goddess who may have been Frigga, Freya, or the same Goddess who was in the process of splitting into those two distinct personalities during the Viking Age. In addition to "beloved", the word is also cognate with the modern English word "free", and seems to have had that meaning as well.

With all of these observations, I came to wonder: might the Vanir Gods be the various Tribal Gods, while the Aesir are the Gods the Tribes all worshiped? It "makes sense" to me, since the Vanir Gods are associated with Earth and fertility, which would be very important in more localized conceptions, while it seems to me that the Aesir are more associated with the Sky, which everyone shares.

Of course, that's not to say that there aren't problems with this possibility. Far as I can tell, the term "Ingvaeonic" seems to be Roman in attestation and may or may not have been a word any Tribe used to refer to itself until after Rome's vast influence had spread even to areas outside its political boundaries. Saxnot may look like the word "Saxon", but the two terms may only be superficially related given the lack of any other attestation. And, of course, Frigga is an Aesir Goddess, not Vanir, and it's Her name that "Frija" is ancestor to; "Freya" means "Lady", and comes from a completely different PIE root. Hence why I stressed at first that this is not an historical statement of fact, or even any kind of theory. At best it's a pet hypothesis that's yet to be fully explored, and may never be fully resolved.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Have you been reading Ellis-Davidson? ;) She makes similar points in Gods and Myths of Northern Europe.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
To start, I'm not saying that this is in any way factual or historical. Rather, this is just an epiphany based on something I noticed regarding Frey, and I wondered if it might be part of what defines the Vanir.

One of Frey's earlier names is Ing, or Yngvi-Freyr. If I read the name right, that roughly means "Lord of the Yngvi", which was, of course, the name of the oldest Swedish dynasty. I suspect, however, based on what little I can gather from some brief research, particularly the concept of the Ingvaeonic group of Tribes, that this may have also been the name of a specific Tribe, for whom Frey was a Patron.

Another reason why I suspect this is that the Saxons had a God named "Saxnot". While I don't know of any attestation of this God outside of a baptismal oath not to worship him and a few others, the name makes me wonder if this was the Saxons' Tribal Patron.

If true, then that's two Germanic Tribes who named themselves for their Gods.

Then I started thinking about the Frisii. While the accepted likely meaning of the word, according to the Online Etymology Dictionary, meant "curly headed", I realized that the name does sound an awful lot like the named "Frija" whenever I hear the second Merseburger Charm, which was the name for the Goddess who may have been Frigga, Freya, or the same Goddess who was in the process of splitting into those two distinct personalities during the Viking Age. In addition to "beloved", the word is also cognate with the modern English word "free", and seems to have had that meaning as well.

With all of these observations, I came to wonder: might the Vanir Gods be the various Tribal Gods, while the Aesir are the Gods the Tribes all worshiped? It "makes sense" to me, since the Vanir Gods are associated with Earth and fertility, which would be very important in more localized conceptions, while it seems to me that the Aesir are more associated with the Sky, which everyone shares.

Of course, that's not to say that there aren't problems with this possibility. Far as I can tell, the term "Ingvaeonic" seems to be Roman in attestation and may or may not have been a word any Tribe used to refer to itself until after Rome's vast influence had spread even to areas outside its political boundaries. Saxnot may look like the word "Saxon", but the two terms may only be superficially related given the lack of any other attestation. And, of course, Frigga is an Aesir Goddess, not Vanir, and it's Her name that "Frija" is ancestor to; "Freya" means "Lady", and comes from a completely different PIE root. Hence why I stressed at first that this is not an historical statement of fact, or even any kind of theory. At best it's a pet hypothesis that's yet to be fully explored, and may never be fully resolved.
This isn't exactly breaking news, dear. All the Germanic tribes traced lineage back to one of their Gods.
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
I have a question about the Vanir. In respect to the Aesir are the Vanir different kinds of demons?
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
Okay, I saw something by Goblin which said that there's always been a duality between divine beings. (e.g. Olympians and Titans, Angels and Demons, etc.)
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Okay, I saw something by Goblin which said that there's always been a duality between divine beings. (e.g. Olympians and Titans, Angels and Demons, etc.)
Yeeeeah, there is nothing like that in the Norse faith. There is no "Titan" equivalent, not even in the Jotnar(Giants). Most of the Aesir & Vanir married one, after all. Thor(who I think might be half-Jotnar) is wedded to one, and the only "evil" giants you find in the myths are exceptions rather than the rule.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
This isn't exactly breaking news, dear. All the Germanic tribes traced lineage back to one of their Gods.

I know it's well-known that the Tribes trace their lineages to single Patron Gods. Is the idea that these Tribal Gods are the Vanir, distinct from the Aesir, already a scholarly theory?
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
I know it's well-known that the Tribes trace their lineages to single Patron Gods. Is the idea that these Tribal Gods are the Vanir, distinct from the Aesir, already a scholarly theory?
No, because not all the tribes claim lineage from a Vanir. The Goths/Gauts claimed Odin, after all.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Okay, I saw something by Goblin which said that there's always been a duality between divine beings. (e.g. Olympians and Titans, Angels and Demons, etc.)

Far as I can tell, that dualistic conception is Zoroastrian in origin. It's not as ubiquitous as some might claim.

The Aesir and Vanir are joined by other beings that I collectively call "Wights": Elves, Giants, Disir, Orcs... The World of Wights is as diverse as ours.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
No, because not all the tribes claim lineage from a Vanir. The Goths/Gauts claimed Odin, after all.

True, but on the other hand, isn't there some question as to whether or not Odin is the same figure as the Vanir God Oðr?
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
True, but on the other hand, isn't there some question as to whether or not Odin is the same figure as the Vanir God Oðr?
I've seen it proposed, though near as I can tell it is unlikely, if only because Odin as a Death God doesn't mesh well with the general Fertility theme of the Vanir.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
To start, I'm not saying that this is in any way factual or historical. Rather, this is just an epiphany based on something I noticed regarding Frey, and I wondered if it might be part of what defines the Vanir.

One of Frey's earlier names is Ing, or Yngvi-Freyr. If I read the name right, that roughly means "Lord of the Yngvi", which was, of course, the name of the oldest Swedish dynasty. I suspect, however, based on what little I can gather from some brief research, particularly the concept of the Ingvaeonic group of Tribes, that this may have also been the name of a specific Tribe, for whom Frey was a Patron.

Another reason why I suspect this is that the Saxons had a God named "Saxnot". While I don't know of any attestation of this God outside of a baptismal oath not to worship him and a few others, the name makes me wonder if this was the Saxons' Tribal Patron.

If true, then that's two Germanic Tribes who named themselves for their Gods.

Then I started thinking about the Frisii. While the accepted likely meaning of the word, according to the Online Etymology Dictionary, meant "curly headed", I realized that the name does sound an awful lot like the named "Frija" whenever I hear the second Merseburger Charm, which was the name for the Goddess who may have been Frigga, Freya, or the same Goddess who was in the process of splitting into those two distinct personalities during the Viking Age. In addition to "beloved", the word is also cognate with the modern English word "free", and seems to have had that meaning as well.

With all of these observations, I came to wonder: might the Vanir Gods be the various Tribal Gods, while the Aesir are the Gods the Tribes all worshiped? It "makes sense" to me, since the Vanir Gods are associated with Earth and fertility, which would be very important in more localized conceptions, while it seems to me that the Aesir are more associated with the Sky, which everyone shares.

Of course, that's not to say that there aren't problems with this possibility. Far as I can tell, the term "Ingvaeonic" seems to be Roman in attestation and may or may not have been a word any Tribe used to refer to itself until after Rome's vast influence had spread even to areas outside its political boundaries. Saxnot may look like the word "Saxon", but the two terms may only be superficially related given the lack of any other attestation. And, of course, Frigga is an Aesir Goddess, not Vanir, and it's Her name that "Frija" is ancestor to; "Freya" means "Lady", and comes from a completely different PIE root. Hence why I stressed at first that this is not an historical statement of fact, or even any kind of theory. At best it's a pet hypothesis that's yet to be fully explored, and may never be fully resolved.

Ing/Yng is the original Runic name for Freyr.

Ingwaz is the sixth rune of the third aett, and the twenty-second rune of the Elder Futhark.

There are Ing/Yng tribes on both the Norse, Swedish and German sides.

Freyr was Lord of the Elves. The Germanic Ingueonnic Tribes worshiped Ing-Ingui-Ingled. The Swedish Royal Dynasty were the Ynglings/Inglings; the Elven race descended from Yngvi-Ing-Freyr. On the Swedish side they were the costal Elf tribe called the Ingaevones.

You can read Snorri Sturluson's works. He wrote the Ynglinga saga, based on an earlier Ynglingatal by 9th century skald Þjóðólfr of Hvinirand.

Ynglinga saga is the first part of Snorri's history of ancient Norse kings, the Heimskringla.

It tells us that Freyr founded the Swedish Yngling dynasty at Uppsala.


*
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
I've seen it proposed, though near as I can tell it is unlikely, if only because Odin as a Death God doesn't mesh well with the general Fertility theme of the Vanir.

Ah, good point.

I did want to bring this epiphany up here, so that if there were things I wasn't aware of, or hadn't considered, that basically make it so unlikely as to be not worth considering, it could be shot down before I got too attached to it.

Ing/Yng is the original Runic name for Freyr.

Ingwaz is the sixth rune of the third aett, and the twenty-second rune of the Elder Futhark.

There are Ing/Yng tribes on both the Norse, Swedish and German sides.

Freyr was Lord of the Elves. The Germanic Ingueonnic Tribes worshiped Ing-Ingui-Ingled. The Swedish Royal Dynasty were the Ynglings/Inglings; the Elven race descended from Yngvi-Ing-Freyr. On the Swedish side they were the costal Elf tribe called the Ingaevones.

You can read Snorri Sturluson's works. He wrote the Ynglinga saga, based on an earlier Ynglingatal by 9th century skald Þjóðólfr of Hvinirand.

Ynglinga saga is the first part of Snorri's history of ancient Norse kings, the Heimskringla.

It tells us that Freyr founded the Swedish Yngling dynasty at Uppsala.


*

I generally take Sturlson's works with a heavy grain of salt, but I admit that I've not really read them in any case. I've still much to learn and read. But I do understand that the Tribes that eventually combined to form the Anglo-Saxons were also Ingvaeonic Tribes.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Yeeeeah, there is nothing like that in the Norse faith. There is no "Titan" equivalent, not even in the Jotnar(Giants). Most of the Aesir & Vanir married one, after all. Thor(who I think might be half-Jotnar) is wedded to one, and the only "evil" giants you find in the myths are exceptions rather than the rule.

Thor is actually 3/4 Jotnar if we consider Odin to be 1/2 Jotnar. Jord is full Jotna (my ON nominal inflection needs work :p). Magni and Modi are something like 7/8 Jotnar by Thor and Jarnsaxa. I think this shows that the Giants were not evil, but just another race of beings with good and bad.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Thor is actually 3/4 Jotnar if we consider Odin to be 1/2 Jotnar. Jord is full Jotna (my ON nominal inflection needs work :p). Magni and Modi are something like 7/8 Jotnar by Thor and Jarnsaxa. I think this shows that the Giants were not evil, but just another race of beings with good and bad.
Something I always found most-interesting was the notion that the Jotunn were incapable of being good or evil, because they had no free-will. They just did things.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Something I always found most-interesting was the notion that the Jotunn were incapable of being good or evil, because they had no free-will. They just did things.

I never thought of anything like that. I wonder how the whole notion of free will figures in Norse thinking. If there was any thought given to philosophies like that at all. May be a good subject to toss around in its own thread. :)
 
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