Epistles of Paul as the Word of God?

[Halcyon]

This may make me look thick, but i don't understand how the letters Paul wrote to places like Ephesus and Rome can be the word of God.
I mean, they were letters - not prophecies or story telling - but letters of correspondence and explaining of Church matters.

How do these letters become God's breathed word? Could someone explain it for me please?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I have never understood it either.
His view of Christianity certainly won out though.

 

[sojourner]

His view won out because he was able to couch an extrememly Jewish religious viewpoint in Gentile terms -- and that's where the church growth came from.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

His view won out because he was able to couch an extrememly Jewish religious viewpoint in Gentile terms -- and that's where the church growth came from.

What "extremely Jewish viewpoint"? It makes as much if not more sense to suggest that he "won out" because he was able to couch an extremely Greco-Roman concept is superficially Jewish terms.

 

[logician]

It was obvious from Paul's works, (not all proven to be authentically his) that he never heard of a real Jesus that lived on this earth. His message was spiritual only. He never referred once to any teachings of the supposed Jesus, or to any of the well known stories of the gospels, yet he lived closer to the time of the supposed Jesus than the real gospel writers did.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It was obvious from Paul's works, (not all proven to be authentically his) that he never heard of a real Jesus that lived on this earth.

It is not at all obvious. Rather, it is one of those senseless claims that takes on the aura of truth simply by virtue on having it repeated by those who do not know better.

Romans 1:2-4

• This gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, concerning his Son who was a descendant of David with reference to the flesh, who was appointed the Son-of-God-in-power according to the Holy Spirit by the resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Galatians 4:4,5

• But when the appropriate time had come, God sent out his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we may be adopted as sons with full rights.

Just in case you missed it, being "a descendant of David with reference to the flesh" and "born of a woman" can be dismissed only by those committed to doing so as an article of faith ...

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Perhaps they were accepted by virtue of Paul's fame more than their literary/religious worth.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Is it ok to add that Paul was simply a liar????


Contradiction One:
Acts 9:4-7: “And he fell down on that planet and heard a voice saying to him Saul, Saul why did you persecute me and he said who are you master; and the master said I am Jesus whom you persecuted it is hard for you to kick against the point. And he trembling and astonished said the master what will you have me to do? And the master said to him arise and go into the city and it shall be told to you what you must do. And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless hearing a voice but seen no man.''


Contradiction Two:
Acts 22:7-10: “And I fell onto the ground and heard a voice saying to me Saul, Saul why are you persecuting me? And I answered who are you master and he said to me. I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you persecute. And they that were with me saw surely the force of light,. And were afraid but did not hear the voice of him that spoke to me. And I said, What shall I do, master? And Jesus said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.


Contradiction Three:
Acts 26:13-16: “At midday o ruler I saw in the way a force of light from the sky above the brightness of the halo shining around me and them which were traveling with me. And when we were all fallen down on that part of the planet Earth I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in a Hebrew dialect Saul, Saul, why did you persecute me? It's hard for you to kick against the sticks.' And I said, Who art thou, Master? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;


Additionally I thought in (Romans 3:7) Paul/Saul was admitting he was a liar. Well I could be wrong on that one though.

Romans 3:7
For if the truth of Jesus hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Romans 3:7
For if the truth of Jesus hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

This is a rhetorical question:

5But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) 6By no means! For then how could God judge the world? 7But if through my lie God's truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? 8And why not do evil that good may come?--as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

It's part of Paul's argument in the familiar Stoic diatribe form that he often assumes in the epistle to the Romans. He asks a rhetorical (or hypothetical) question and then answers it. Stoics often did this, as exemplified most in Epictetus.

He says that people slanderously say that Christians reason like that - do evil so that God may be shown to be merciful - and then turns around and says that that criticism can stick, because his audience was not perfect.

Paul was many things, but I'm not convinced that he was a liar.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

This is a rhetorical question:

5But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) 6By no means! For then how could God judge the world? 7But if through my lie God's truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? 8And why not do evil that good may come?--as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

It's part of Paul's argument in the familiar Stoic diatribe form that he often assumes in the epistle to the Romans. He asks a rhetorical (or hypothetical) question and then answers it. Stoics often did this, as exemplified most in Epictetus.

He says that people slanderously say that Christians reason like that - do evil so that God may be shown to be merciful - and then turns around and says that that criticism can stick, because his audience was not perfect.

Paul was many things, but I'm not convinced that he was a liar.

Thank you. I figured as much. But it's nice to have a second set of eyes to help me understand that quote....

 

[wizanda]

Paul’s/Saul’s writings contradict Christ on most of his teachings…in any normal persons mind that means Anti-Christ as it teaches opposite to each other, so you can’t follow both, yet people still try….

The good point about that is God foretold it and asked people not to, yet regardless of clear warnings all over, people refuse to listen to any prophets and would rather just murderer them and class that as a martyr…

If you would like a list ask on any scriptures, yet large amount in articles written and loads more to come, as it is obvious, really....:angel2:

 

[Vassal]

Is it ok to add that Paul was simply a liar????


Contradiction One:
Acts 9:4-7: “And he fell down on that planet and heard a voice saying to him Saul, Saul why did you persecute me and he said who are you master; and the master said I am Jesus whom you persecuted it is hard for you to kick against the point. And he trembling and astonished said the master what will you have me to do? And the master said to him arise and go into the city and it shall be told to you what you must do. And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless hearing a voice but seen no man.''


Contradiction Two:
Acts 22:7-10: “And I fell onto the ground and heard a voice saying to me Saul, Saul why are you persecuting me? And I answered who are you master and he said to me. I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you persecute. And they that were with me saw surely the force of light,. And were afraid but did not hear the voiceof him that spoke to me. And I said, What shall I do, master? And Jesus said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.


Contradiction Three:
Acts 26:13-16: “At midday o ruler I saw in the way a force of light from the sky above the brightness of the halo shining around me and them which were traveling with me. And when we were all fallen down on that part of the planet Earth I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in a Hebrew dialect Saul, Saul, why did you persecute me? It's hard for you to kick against the sticks.' And I said, Who art thou, Master? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;


Additionally I thought in (Romans 3:7) Paul/Saul was admitting he was a liar. Well I could be wrong on that one though.

Romans 3:7
For if the truth of Jesus hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

Romans 3:7 is nothing more than a rhetorical question. He's rhetorically asking the recipients of the letter "Why does God condemn me for doing wrong if my sins allow his truthfulness to be seen and bring Glory to him?". He goes on in verse 8 to say that anyone who thinks like this might as well be saying that the more we sin the better it is, but those who think such things deserve to be condemned.

The account of Paul's vision in the various verses do not contradict each other either. The supposed contradiction of the other people with Paul hearing and/or not hearing the voice that spoke to Paul is merely a mistranslation. Anyone who has taken a foreign language should know that it is impossible to translate the true intent of ancient languages with 100% accuracy, especially when using a word-for-word translation approach like many translations do. There will inevitably be some bad translations that don’t get fixed until someone notices. In Acts 9 and Acts 22 use different forms of the verb, the one used in Acts 9 meaning to hear, and the one in Acts 22 meaning to hear and to understand. In English we also tend to tell someone we didn't "hear" what they said when we did actually hear what they said but just didn’t understand what was being said.

Paul’s/Saul’s writings contradict Christ on most of his teachings…in any normal persons mind that means Anti-Christ as it teaches opposite to each other, so you can’t follow both, yet people still try….

The good point about that is God foretold it and asked people not to, yet regardless of clear warnings all over, people refuse to listen to any prophets and would rather just murderer them and class that as a martyr…

If you would like a list ask on any scriptures, yet large amount in articles written and loads more to come, as it is obvious, really....:angel2:

Paul's letters are considered the word of God because he was chosen by God to be an apostle and because his teachings are the same as what Christ taught. Paul went around persecuting Christians before he had the vision of Jesus, so his vision can be the only explanation of his quick change of beliefs and the accuracy of his teachings. How exactly were Paul's teachings contradictroy what Christ said?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Paul's letters are considered the word of God because he was chosen by God to be an apostle and because his teachings are the same as what Christ taught.

And we know that to be true because, well, Paul said so, and, after all, Paul's letters are considered the word of God because he was chosen by God to be an apostle and because ...

 

[doppelganger]

His view won out because he was able to couch an extrememly Jewish religious viewpoint in Gentile terms -- and that's where the church growth came from.

His view didn't win out. His views were mixed with many other visions of Christianity during the proto-Catholic period of the latter half of the second century to make the hodge-podge that became orthodoxy - which was always more about the authority to decide the ideas and views than the ideas and views themselves anyway. The portrayal of Paul in the Book of Acts reveals that at least some approaches in the developing orthodoxy were quite uncomfortable with his ideas.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

And we know that to be true because, well, Paul said so, and, after all, Paul's letters are considered the word of God because he was chosen by God to be an apostle and because ...

Thank you.......

I've often wondered why most assume Paul (who never met or spoke to Yeshua)...was actually speaking to him on the road. Could he not have been deceived by satan? What makes claim any different that the others who came in the name of Jesus?

Just askin'

 

[SoyLeche]

Thank you.......

I've often wondered why most assume Paul (who never met or spoke to Yeshua)...was actually speaking to him on the road. Could he not have been deceived by satan? What makes claim any different that the others who came in the name of Jesus?

Just askin'

That's easy - Paul is in the Bible, and the Bible is perfect, so Paul must not have been lying. The other's aren't in the Bible, so they much not have been telling the truth, or they would be in the Bible, as the Bible contains all of the truth that ever has been or ever will be revealed. Oh, and Paul says that he isn't lying, and since we have already proven that Paul wasn't lying - we can say with absolute certainty that Paul wasn't lying.

Note - make sure your sarcasmeter is on for this post

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Romans 3:7 is nothing more than a rhetorical question. He's rhetorically asking the recipients of the letter "Why does God condemn me for doing wrong if my sins allow his truthfulness to be seen and bring Glory to him?". He goes on in verse 8 to say that anyone who thinks like this might as well be saying that the more we sin the better it is, but those who think such things deserve to be condemned.

Thanks. Some one else explained that to me. I figured it was rhetorical.

The account of Paul's vision in the various verses do not contradict each other either. The supposed contradiction of the other people with Paul hearing and/or not hearing the voice that spoke to Paul is merely a mistranslation.

I guess we are to assume that there was more than one author of Acts? Acts 9 seems to be told from the third person view where as Acts 22 seems to be from the mouth of Paul himself. To me this is where the contradiction come into play.

King James Version
9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.


The men heard the voice of some one talking but they couldn't see who it was that was talking.

King James Version
22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

The saw the light and was afraid but couldn't hear who was speaking to Paul. This is from Pauls's mouth.

 

[wizanda]

1st Zechariah 11 so you realize this was God's plan to begin……also that inheritance and grace are cut off from Yeshua being murdered 2nd

Even just them 2 points is enough…yet to continue here is the old list I made, yet now have loads more…..


1. Christ said he came to fulfil the law and not to end it. Paul said he came to end the Law, and if we are in Christ we are free of the Law.

2. Christ said that we are judged by the commandments; Paul said we are free of them, if we are in Christ.

3. Christ said that we should not judge, Paul said that the spiritual may judge and should not be judged.

4. Christ said that God is the judge, Paul said Christ is.

5. Christ said that the inheritance is from God and they killed him to try and steal it, as in the parable of the vine dresser; Paul said that we have an inheritance because of Christ’s death.

6. Christ said not to sacrifice the innocent, Paul praised the fact that Christ died.

7. Christ said that God is the lord of the living; Paul said that we should remain with Christ in death.

8. Christ showed that reincarnation happens, as he said John was Elijah, Paul said we only live once.

9. Christ said God is spirit, Paul said Christ is the image of God; breaking the second commandment.

10. Christ said he was sent and was a servant and a son, Paul said Christ is equal to God and even said he was God.

11. Christ said to worship God, Paul said to worship Christ.

12. Christ said to be one in God, Paul said to be one body in Christ.

13. Christ said that faith in God is powerful; Paul said that faith is "the faith" and so turning its meaning in to church attendance.

14. Christ showed and said to have faith in God; Paul said have faith in Christ.

15. Christ said have one father, Paul said he had begotten people in Christ so making him a father to them.

16. Christ said that we should want of nothing and trust in God, giving up wealth and helping the poor after his death, 3 thousand people were practicing this. Paul ended this and then said if we don’t work we don’t eat, and even went back to work while preaching him self.

17. Christ said it will be hard for a rich man to enter heaven; Paul aspired to have wealth and for two years he rented his own house.

18. Christ said we have forgiveness for forgiving others; Paul said we have forgiveness in Christ.

19. Christ said we are justified by our words, Paul said we are justified by Christ.

20. Christ said God would show mercy to the merciful, Paul said we have mercy in Christ.

21. Christ said to be like children to enter heaven; Paul said not to be like children.

22. Christ said to be the light of the world and to show the bad through love how to be good, Paul said to have nothing to do with bad people and push them out.

23. Christ and the Bible said wisdom will make you shine in heaven, and he said that we should increase the talents we are born with; Paul said to be simple in Christ.

24. Christ said, if you help collect in the harvest (works) you will receive your reward, Paul said it is not by works but by faith in Christ alone.

25. Christ said don’t make vain repetition in prayers; Paul established it as a way to pray, through the wording he used and the Pharisee ways he showed.

26. Christ said hate self and love through God's love, then this is unconditional, Paul said who doesn’t love them self’s.

27. Christ said women can be sisters (equal), Paul said they should remain lower.

28. Christ said we should remember him through the sharing of bread (start of acts, only bread); Paul said to remember him through wine.

29. Christ said that his disciples should only drink water; Paul made the drinking of wine (communion) a religious Ritual.

30. Christ clearly showed and said do not worry about being accepted by man, Paul said to be accepted by many.

31. Christ said take up your cross and follow me, as the cross was a symbol in many cultures for God. Paul turned the cross into only a symbol of Christ’s death, and caused it to become idolatry.

32. Christ said he came to bring division, meaning that we all follow God; Paul said Christ came to bring peace.

33. Christ said God is the teacher, Paul said him self is a teacher.

34. Christ said God and the kingdom of heaven is within you, Paul said that a fake prophet would say that God is within you.

35. Christ warned of those who say the time is near, Paul preached the time is near.

36. Christ said invite the poor to your house and feed the hungry, Paul said let the hungry eat at home, and showed to only invite friends for food.

 

[Vassal]

Thanks. Some one else explained that to me. I figured it was rhetorical.



I guess we are to assume that there was more than one author of Acts? Acts 9 seems to be told from the third person view where as Acts 22 seems to be from the mouth of Paul himself. To me this is where the contradiction come into play.

King James Version
9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.


The men heard the voice of some one talking but they couldn't see who it was that was talking.

King James Version
22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

The saw the light and was afraid but couldn't hear who was speaking to Paul. This is from Paul’s mouth.

Acts was not written by Paul, but one of his companions who accompanied him throughout his journeys after Paul became a Christian. In Acts 9 the author of Acts is describing what happened to Paul when he had the vision. In Acts 22 the author of Acts is recording Paul describing the vision himself to a crowd of people in Jerusalem. This is why there are single quotes inside double quotes, such as verse 8:
8 “‘Who are you, lord?’ I asked.”

“And the voice replied, ‘I am Jesus the Nazarene, the one you are persecuting.’ 9 The people with me saw the light but didn’t understand the voice speaking to me.”

If you would just take 30 seconds and read the chapter you would have figured this out yourself. All of Acts was written by the same person.

1st Zechariah 11 so you realize this was God's plan to begin……also that inheritance and grace are cut off from Yeshua being murdered 2nd

Even just them 2 points is enough…yet to continue here is the old list I made, yet now have loads more…..


1. Christ said he came to fulfil the law and not to end it. Paul said he came to end the Law, and if we are in Christ we are free of the Law.

...

36. Christ said invite the poor to your house and feed the hungry, Paul said let the hungry eat at home, and showed to only invite friends for food.

You’re going to have to include the scriptures you used to make such claims. After all, we’re interested in what the Bible has to say about Christ Jesus and Paul, not what wizanda thinks it says.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

That's easy - Paul is in the Bible, and the Bible is perfect, so Paul must not have been lying.

It's very hard to tell if you are joking. Please tell me you are joking.......

First, without getting into another debate, the bible is not perfect. If you truely believe this then there is no need for any other books (i.e. Book of Mormon, Quran...etc).

Also remember The OT and the NT have been assembled and compiled into what is known as the bible by a group who decided (censored) what would make the grade or what wouldn't.

Just because it was put in a book of collected writings doesn't make it truth. The group that compiled the scriptures scrutanized and decided what was truth for the masses and put these scriptures together. If anything the "bible" is an incomplete work of collected writings especially since the discovery of the dead sea scrolls and other scriptures that never made it in.

so they much not have been telling the truth, or they would be in the Bible, as the Bible contains all of the truth that ever has been or ever will be revealed.

No offense but IMO I believe that this is a naive understanding of the power of the people who assembled the scriptures, scrutanized them and compiled what "they" felt was the word of "God."

Oh, and Paul says that he isn't lying, and since we have already proven that Paul wasn't lying - we can say with absolute certainty that Paul wasn't lying.

I guess you're right...because says he had a vision...or heard a voice of a man whom he never met or spoke to, who called himself Jesus..to Paul... Then Paul must have been telling the truth and it certainly could not have been Satan....There is not room at all to even think it was satan.....hmmmmm...I see your point....