Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
Spiritual metal!!?? That's a new one
Your prophet said you can literally see it as mentioned in the hadeeth I posted in previous post.
It helps to note sarcasm when it appears.
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Errors in the Quran
- Thread starter Truthisnotyourenemy
- Start date
It helps to note sarcasm when it appears.
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
Shh, you might damage the idea that only non-believers are rational. :sad:
But opponents do not care about it. They will always say it is meant literally, even if evidence is given.
AmbiguousGuy
Well-Known Member
Not so much sarcasm as my effort to help him understand that words can be interpreted all sorts of ways. He's not the final arbiter of a verse's meaning.
Scripture isn't guilty. People who interpret it nastily are guilty.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Gog and Magog will never be known except in the end of times.
[youtube]Doa42mMvqy4[/youtube]
EOTW Gog and Magog Ep2
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
It is silly for you only because you don't know how it works.
See how dogs are amazing
Whale poop is often analyzed by scientists to monitor the health of whales, as it often contains important information about their diet. But there’s one problem: the poop sinks within half an hour of leaving the whale, meaning that scientists need to get their hands on it as soon as possible.
For this reason, one group has started training dogs to detect the poop. The dogs can trace its scent from a distance of more than one mile (1.6 km), and lead scientists to the smelly treasure. When the dog has detected the whale waste, he points out the location to the boat captain by either leaning left or right, or twitching his left or right ear.
Reference: 10 Unexpected Things That Dogs Can Smell - Listverse
People in the 7th century should be more surprised to know that Solomon can understand the ant's language and how come that such tiny insect can speak.
[youtube]7MIqSDFReuo[/youtube]
One Ant Defeats Atheism. My God Delusion Part 1 - YouTube
Truthisnotyourenemy
Member
Sorry but the scripture is very clear.
A metal wall is not invisible.
The hadiths agree and so do the classical scholars.
Truthisnotyourenemy
Member
Truthisnotyourenemy
Member
But opponents do not care about it. They will always say it is meant literally, even if evidence is given.
The evidence..lol!
Not the Koran.
Not the hadith.
Not the classical scholars.
Only wishful thinking.
Truthisnotyourenemy
Member
If the wall existed we would know about it.
The prophet agreed it had been seen.
It's a popular legend that existed when the Koran was revealed.
Nothing but a myth.
Denial and wishful thinking won't change this fact.
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
And what about if it was in some exegesis?
Would you count it then?
I'd like to think so, but I'm not so hopeful.
Truthisnotyourenemy
Member
Why don't you go through each verse by one and tell how I'm wrong.
And also explain why the hadith and classical scholars agree.
Does any Muslim actually read the scripture
Truthisnotyourenemy
Member
Sure all humans are guilty of confirmation bias up to a point.
But with religion fear is a very powerful factor add to the mix.
For many no evidence no matter how convincing will have an impact.
AmbiguousGuy
Well-Known Member
Truthfully? Well... because I don't take you[r position] seriously enough.
Sorry. You strike me as a typical religion basher, just starting off on his bashing campaign and not ready for a serious look at it.
I dunno. Because classical scholars tend to be word-worshippers, like you?
Does any Muslim actually read the scripture
Beats me. Maybe you should ask them.
Truthisnotyourenemy
Member
Depends who by.
A modern scholar like the one you quoted previously...absolutely not. I've come across one before and it was full lies to cover the story up.
A classical scholar...certainly worth a read.
Here is the story once more for those Muslims who can't follow a few simple verses with hadith:
The following verses make it clear that the barrier built by Dhul-Qarnayn prevented this evil community to scale or dig through it.
However, when Gods promise comes to pass (day of judgment) he will turn the wall to dust making the ground level enabling this community to roam free.
018.096
YUSUFALI: "Bring me blocks of iron." At length, when he had filled up the space between the two steep mountain-sides, He said, "Blow (with your bellows)" Then, when he had made it (red) as fire, he said: "Bring me, that I may pour over it, molten lead."
PICKTHAL: Give me pieces of iron - till, when he had levelled up (the gap) between the cliffs, he said: Blow! - till, when he had made it a fire, he said: Bring me molten copper to pour thereon.
SHAKIR: Bring me blocks of iron; until when he had filled up the space between the two mountain sides, he said: Blow, until when he had made it (as) fire, he said: Bring me molten brass which I may pour over it.
018.097
YUSUFALI: Thus were they made powerless to scale it or to dig through it.
PICKTHAL: And (Gog and Magog) were not able to surmount, nor could they pierce (it).
SHAKIR: So they were not able to scale it nor could they make a hole in it.
018.098
YUSUFALI: He said: "This is a mercy from my Lord: But when the promise of my Lord comes to pass, He will make it into dust; and the promise of my Lord is true."
PICKTHAL: He said: This is a mercy from my Lord; but when the promise of my Lord cometh to pass, He will lay it low, for the promise of my Lord is true.
SHAKIR: He said: This is a mercy from my Lord, but when the promise of my Lord comes to pass He will make it level with the ground, and the promise of my Lord is ever true.
So according to the Koran the wall Dhul-Qarnayn built will be destroyed in judgement day which let loose this evil community from their mountainous region, as is confimed by the following verse:
021.096
YUSUFALI: Until the Gog and Magog (people) are let through (their barrier), and they swiftly swarm from every hill.
PICKTHAL: Until, when Gog and Magog are let loose, and they hasten out of every mound,
SHAKIR: Even when Gog and Magog are let loose and they shall break forth from every elevated place.
Anyone with an ounce of common sense can follow this story and its another example of a popular myth that ends up in the Koran.
For those who lack this common sense we also have ahadeeth to explain in detail:
(So they (Ya'juj and Ma'juj) could not scale it or dig through it.) This indicates that they could not penetrate it or dig through it. Imam Ahmad recorded that Zaynab bint Jahsh, the wife of the Prophet said, "The Prophet woke from sleep, and he was red in the face. He said,
(La ilaha illallah! Woe to the Arabs from the evil that has approached (them). Today a hole has been opened in the barrier of Ya'juj and Ma'juj like this.) and he made a circle with his index finger and thumb. I [Zaynab] said, `O Messenger of Allah, will we be destroyed even though there will be righteous people among us' He said:
(Yes, if evil increases.)'' This is a Sahih Hadith, both Al-Bukhari and Muslim recorded it.
((Dhul-Qarnayn) said: "This is a mercy from my Lord...'') meaning, after it was built by Dhul-Qarnayn.
(He said: This is a mercy from my Lord) for the people, when he placed a barrier between them and Ya'juj and Ma'juj, to stop them from spreading evil and corruption on earth.
(but when the promise of my Lord comes) means, when the true promise comes
Truthisnotyourenemy
Member
:areyoucra
Truthisnotyourenemy
Member
As I've mentioned before The Koran describes the world just as you would expect from a 7th century desert dweller, not from an all knowing God.
One myth that was popular back then was that people belived the sky was a solid canopy like structure.
The ancient world generally believed the sky was solid:
Astonishing as it may seem to the modern mind, with very rare excep-
tions the idea that the sky is not solid is a distinctly modern one. Historical
evidence shows that virtually everyone in the ancient world believed in a
solid firmament.
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted_Hil ... nt-WTJ.pdf
People did not realize how far away the heavens really were. It seemed reasonable to them that the sky was a canopy whose edges touched the surface of Earth..
Solar System Exploration: 404: Page Not Found ... ?ST_ID=525
Now does the Koran agree?!
Unsurprisingly yes:
02.22: PICKTHAL: Who hath appointed the earth a resting-place for you, and the sky a canopy;
The above verse is asking its 7th century who has created the sky a canopy.
Note the emphasis is not on their existence but on who created them after all they already believed the sky is a solid canopy.
No one reading the verse back then would have raised an eyebrow that the sky was described as a canopy as this is what they already believed and the Koran only confirms this.
The following verse describes the sky as roof which again is what ancient people believed back then. It also claims such a roof was a sign to them:
021.032
PICKTHAL: And we have made the sky a roof withheld (from them). Yet they turn away from its portents.
So what canopy/roof was a sign to people who already believed in a solid sky?
One myth that was popular back then was that people belived the sky was a solid canopy like structure.
The ancient world generally believed the sky was solid:
Astonishing as it may seem to the modern mind, with very rare excep-
tions the idea that the sky is not solid is a distinctly modern one. Historical
evidence shows that virtually everyone in the ancient world believed in a
solid firmament.
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted_Hil ... nt-WTJ.pdf
People did not realize how far away the heavens really were. It seemed reasonable to them that the sky was a canopy whose edges touched the surface of Earth..
Solar System Exploration: 404: Page Not Found ... ?ST_ID=525
Now does the Koran agree?!
Unsurprisingly yes:
02.22: PICKTHAL: Who hath appointed the earth a resting-place for you, and the sky a canopy;
The above verse is asking its 7th century who has created the sky a canopy.
Note the emphasis is not on their existence but on who created them after all they already believed the sky is a solid canopy.
No one reading the verse back then would have raised an eyebrow that the sky was described as a canopy as this is what they already believed and the Koran only confirms this.
The following verse describes the sky as roof which again is what ancient people believed back then. It also claims such a roof was a sign to them:
021.032
PICKTHAL: And we have made the sky a roof withheld (from them). Yet they turn away from its portents.
So what canopy/roof was a sign to people who already believed in a solid sky?
AmbiguousGuy
Well-Known Member
See what I mean?
If you ever get over your bashing stage and want to talk, let me know.
Truthisnotyourenemy
Member
AmbiguousGuy
Well-Known Member
Whenever your're able to defend scripture, let me know.
Defend scripture. Goodness. It's what I was saying earlier. You believe in words. I don't think you've yet considered anything past that.
Just my impression.
