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Eugenics Revisited

Heyo

Veteran Member
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics said:
Eugenics (/juːˈdʒɛnɪks/ yoo-JEN-iks; from Ancient Greek εύ̃ (eû) 'good, well', and -γενής (genḗs) 'come into being, growing')[1] is a set of beliefs and practices that aim to improve the genetic quality of a human population.[2][3][4]

An OP that touches on eugenics and the latest SFIA episode bring me to this question. Eugenics has kind of a bad reputation today, not in small part through who supported it in the day and how it was planned to be implemented.
But is it really that unethical to want a healthy population? When genetics was discovered, the thought was to simply stop people with "bad genes" from reproducing, but today we have the option to edit our genes. We can "bioform" our offspring to be adapted optimally to life in a future ecology. We could eliminate illnesses and vulnerabilities, e.g. to obesity, with just a bit CRISPR/Cas9. (Not by "training", sorry.)

Shouldn't we?
 

Eddi

Christianity, Taoism, and Humanism
Premium Member
With humans I think that genetic engineering is in a different moral category to selective breeding
 

anna.

colors your eyes with what's not there
An OP that touches on eugenics and the latest SFIA episode bring me to this question. Eugenics has kind of a bad reputation today, not in small part through who supported it in the day and how it was planned to be implemented.
But is it really that unethical to want a healthy population? When genetics was discovered, the thought was to simply stop people with "bad genes" from reproducing, but today we have the option to edit our genes. We can "bioform" our offspring to be adapted optimally to life in a future ecology. We could eliminate illnesses and vulnerabilities, e.g. to obesity, with just a bit CRISPR/Cas9. (Not by "training", sorry.)

Shouldn't we?

It can be unethical, yes. Here are some possibilities:


First, the ethics of the researcher under discussion - two embryos were implanted and the babies subsequently born "but it does not appear that they made an effort to fully understand the actual effect of the alterations they had made. With all of the risks associated with the CRISPR editing process, embryos should not be implanted if the scientists are unsure of the effects."

Also discussed, among other issues:

2.6.2. Socioeconomic disparities​

Multiple polls have shown that the majority of people around the world are opposed to the use of genetic engineering of embryos for enhancement, such as athletic ability and intelligence, or for altering physical characteristics, such as eye color and height. 89 It is easy to conceive of the risk of a new age of eugenics.​
But even the application of genetic modification to address medical needs holds the potential for establishing inequality. The technology will remain incredibly expensive for some time, prohibitively so for most people. CCR5 edits lie in an ill‐defined area between medical need and enhancement; an unfair health advantage will be established if such modifications are only accessible to the wealthy. Other kinds of edits may mean the difference between life and death; should potentially life‐saving therapies only be available to those with financial means? Put another way, should those individuals on one side of the growing socioeconomic gap be the only ones protected from the suffering that comes with illnesses such as Alzheimer's disease, Huntington disease, or cystic fibrosis?​

2.6.3. Possible stigma​

Especially while the concept is still novel, it is difficult to predict how society will feel about gene‐edited babies. Will Nana and Lulu face any sort of backlash? Conversely, if and when gene editing becomes commonplace, will there be a stigma associated with not having been edited in some way, such as still being susceptible to various infectious diseases? Might children like Lulu be less accepted for not carrying a desired modification? He wanted to spare HIV‐infected individuals’ children the stigma and discrimination their parents endured; 90 it is possible that having edited genes has replaced one potential stigma with another.​

2.6.4. Insurance​

Because gene editing will be a tool to cure and prevent illness, insurance coverage will be an important part of the conversation. First, will insurance cover the editing itself? If so, will germline versus somatic cell editing be an important distinction? Will coverage be based on the targeted illness or disability (and expected associated costs)? And who will decide which edits are considered medically necessary and which are considered elective?​
Once babies born from edited embryos are born, more questions arise. Will those whose genes have not been edited to prevent certain illnesses be considered to have preexisting conditions? Will they be expected to pay more for coverage? On the other side of the coin, will those who have had their genes edited (especially when the technology is first rolled out) pay more because of possible off‐target risks or potential negative consequences of editing (eg, the increased susceptibility to influenza associated with CCR5 editing)?​
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It can be unethical, yes. Here are some possibilities:


First, the ethics of the researcher under discussion - two embryos were implanted and the babies subsequently born "but it does not appear that they made an effort to fully understand the actual effect of the alterations they had made. With all of the risks associated with the CRISPR editing process, embryos should not be implanted if the scientists are unsure of the effects."

Also discussed, among other issues:

2.6.2. Socioeconomic disparities​

Multiple polls have shown that the majority of people around the world are opposed to the use of genetic engineering of embryos for enhancement, such as athletic ability and intelligence, or for altering physical characteristics, such as eye color and height. 89 It is easy to conceive of the risk of a new age of eugenics.​
But even the application of genetic modification to address medical needs holds the potential for establishing inequality. The technology will remain incredibly expensive for some time, prohibitively so for most people. CCR5 edits lie in an ill‐defined area between medical need and enhancement; an unfair health advantage will be established if such modifications are only accessible to the wealthy. Other kinds of edits may mean the difference between life and death; should potentially life‐saving therapies only be available to those with financial means? Put another way, should those individuals on one side of the growing socioeconomic gap be the only ones protected from the suffering that comes with illnesses such as Alzheimer's disease, Huntington disease, or cystic fibrosis?​

2.6.3. Possible stigma​

Especially while the concept is still novel, it is difficult to predict how society will feel about gene‐edited babies. Will Nana and Lulu face any sort of backlash? Conversely, if and when gene editing becomes commonplace, will there be a stigma associated with not having been edited in some way, such as still being susceptible to various infectious diseases? Might children like Lulu be less accepted for not carrying a desired modification? He wanted to spare HIV‐infected individuals’ children the stigma and discrimination their parents endured; 90 it is possible that having edited genes has replaced one potential stigma with another.​

2.6.4. Insurance​

Because gene editing will be a tool to cure and prevent illness, insurance coverage will be an important part of the conversation. First, will insurance cover the editing itself? If so, will germline versus somatic cell editing be an important distinction? Will coverage be based on the targeted illness or disability (and expected associated costs)? And who will decide which edits are considered medically necessary and which are considered elective?​
Once babies born from edited embryos are born, more questions arise. Will those whose genes have not been edited to prevent certain illnesses be considered to have preexisting conditions? Will they be expected to pay more for coverage? On the other side of the coin, will those who have had their genes edited (especially when the technology is first rolled out) pay more because of possible off‐target risks or potential negative consequences of editing (eg, the increased susceptibility to influenza associated with CCR5 editing)?​
To not pursue genetic editing can also be unethical.
I think of refusal to fix a debilitating disease, thereby
imposing it on a person.
 

anna.

colors your eyes with what's not there
To not pursue genetic editing can also be unethical.
I think of refusal to fix a debilitating disease, thereby
imposing it on a person.

Once a line has been drawn for what defines debilitating (something more grave than a genetically inherited overbite, for example) would you support government funding so all citizens can equally access that gene editing?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Once a line has been drawn for what defines debilitating (something more grave than a genetically inherited overbite, for example) would you support government funding so all citizens can equally access that gene editing?
I'd have to give much more thought based on
much more observation to decide where to
draw a line. But my 1st impression is that
improving the lot of humans (not just fixing
severe maladies) is a good idea.
Government funding could be cost effective
in improving quality of life.
 

anna.

colors your eyes with what's not there
I'd have to give much more thought based on
much more observation to decide where to
draw a line. But my 1st impression is that
improving the lot of humans (not just fixing
severe maladies) is a good idea.
Government funding could be cost effective
in improving quality of life.

For the purposes of the question, you don't need to decide where to draw a line. Assuming it's already been drawn was to preempt a discussion of the line itself, to focus on equal access through government funding, which is the question. Good to see you're open to the idea!
 

Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
We've moved from personal efforts to increase an ability over multiple generations through offspring and continued conscious effort to self-train for that purpose through daily activities, to a government funded eugenics thread denying that the efforts suggested are even viable as a way to alter inherited genes produced from them, specifically.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I have seen too many human institutions fail over the years to put this much trust into one with this much power over the future of others..

The reason it has failed in the past is because it takes quite a bit of power to enforce this sort of policy and regimes that have had that much power were never ethical. Take a lesson from Donald Trump and apply it to this problem.
 

Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
The do it yourself ethos represented in the other thread, simply suggests that instead of looking outside of ourselves for the desired results, to make efforts to develop the desired results from ourselves; then to continue these efforts over multiple generations.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
We've moved from personal efforts to increase an ability over multiple generations through offspring and continued conscious effort to self-train for that purpose through daily activities, to a government funded eugenics thread denying that the efforts suggested are even viable as a way to alter inherited genes produced from them, specifically.
We've moved from a pipe dream not supported by science to a realistic option - with just the same implications and ethical questions. This thread is to discuss the ethics.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
An OP that touches on eugenics and the latest SFIA episode bring me to this question. Eugenics has kind of a bad reputation today, not in small part through who supported it in the day and how it was planned to be implemented.
But is it really that unethical to want a healthy population? When genetics was discovered, the thought was to simply stop people with "bad genes" from reproducing, but today we have the option to edit our genes. We can "bioform" our offspring to be adapted optimally to life in a future ecology. We could eliminate illnesses and vulnerabilities, e.g. to obesity, with just a bit CRISPR/Cas9. (Not by "training", sorry.)

Shouldn't we?
The problem I have with it is the Testing trials. They could never be 100% sure of success or 100% sure it doesn't affect something negatively. The results would have to be monitored over a long period of time with a substantial number of people. I doubt very much this would happen as in our culture if they can make money off of it, they will push the boundaries and ignore the dangers.

That said as long as people are not coerced into doing it and are doing it of their own free will, have at it. I doubt I will benefit from it but over time maybe someone from my future generations will.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
We've moved from a pipe dream not supported by science to a realistic option - with just the same implications and ethical questions. This thread is to discuss the ethics.
The devil is quite often in the details. How would you determine what steps would be taken? I really cannot debate ethics at all in regards to an undefined eugenics.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't even get to the "should" question.

Humans will do this. Whether or not humans "should" is a mute question. Doesn't matter. They will do this. And only some humans - those with money and access - will benefit. That's how it is now with technology, and that's how it will be for any and all future technologies. Humanity has a serious technology problem. It really should just stop. But it won't. It can't.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
With humans I think that genetic engineering is in a different moral category to selective breeding
I think that depends on how it's implemented. We know selective breeding works, but its implementation by culling and coercion during the early 20th century has forever besmirched its possibilities.
 

Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
We've moved from a pipe dream not supported by science to a realistic option - with just the same implications and ethical questions. This thread is to discuss the ethics.
The ethics of eugenics? It has been deemed mostly unethical from recent history. An alternate route would be to test a theory of conscious manipulation over the duration of several generations.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I've never seen an occasion where the beliefs and practices of those who supports eugenics didn't turn on short order to ablism. E.g. limiting the reproductive choices of people with undesirable traits thought to be inheritable. Like autism, down syndrome, congenital blindness or deafness. As well as attempting to force medical intervention on children with disabilities based on social requirements for conformity, rather than the child's actual health. (E.g. court mandated implants for deaf children, therapy for autistic kids to mask their differences.)

I've never seen eugenics successfully maintained merely as optional treatment for those who choose it, rather than otherizing those who don't meet this societal standard for genetic health the eugenesist thinks we should have.

People have tried to make eugenics a positive social force before, and every time it has ended up wielded by ablists and racists. Because genetic good health is a snarl of subjectivity and puritism factions soon follow that innate subjectivity.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I am a believer that genetics plays a large factor in likeliness of success in life and the forward progress of society.

What concerns me is the lowest birthrate is among those most likely to contribute positively to an advancing human society. So, the less likely to contribute to an advancing society are disproportionately contributing more to the human gene pool.

By success, I am talking about intelligence, decision making choices, appropriate social behavior and such.

The other side would say genetics doesn't matter in those things and that would become our central disagreement.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I am a believer that genetics plays a large factor in likeliness of success in life and the forward progress of society.

What concerns me is the lowest birthrate is among those most likely to contribute positively to an advancing human society. So, the less likely to contribute to an advancing society are disproportionately contributing more to the human gene pool.

By success, I am talking about intelligence, decision making choices, appropriate social behavior and such.

The other side would say genetics doesn't matter in those things and that would become our central disagreement.
Just want to point out this user has called themselves a scientific racist and the 'society disproportionately contributing to the gene pool' they mean is white people.

Which is kind of my point.
 
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