European nationalism?

[Flappycat]

Is it just me, or are the Europeans beginning to develop some unified sense of "national" identity? To me, this seems a pleasant change from them being at each other's throats, but is there any chance of them developing the same swagger as America in times to come? For a while, it seemed the US was the economic big cheif, but it's increasingly looking like a three-horse race between the US, Europe, and Asia. Even with the borders between directly neighboring countries eroding away, it seems that the nation-state isn't so much on its way to demise as toward something of a change in size, location, and number. Do the countries of Europe still identify themselves strictly individualistically, or is there something to my perception of them as developing a common step, bark, and bite?

 

[Sunstone]

Is it just me, or are the Europeans beginning to develop some unified sense of "national" identity? To me, this seems a pleasant change from them being at each other's throats, but is there any chance of them developing the same swagger as America in times to come? For a while, it seemed the US was the economic big cheif, but it's increasingly looking like a three-horse race between the US, Europe, and Asia. Even with the borders between directly neighboring countries eroding away, it seems that the nation-state isn't so much on its way to demise as toward something of a change in size, location, and number. Do the countries of Europe still identify themselves strictly individualistically, or is there something to my perception of them as developing a common step, bark, and bite?

Well, I'm one more American, Flappycat, who hopes Europe unites into some sort of federation. The federal experience has been good for America, and I can't see it as being all that bad for Europe. But then, I don't know what Europeans themselves think about that, and I bow to their wishes for themselves.

One way a united Europe would benefit America in the long run is that it would give us a strong partner that shared much with us in common culture, such as the influence of the Western Englightenment on our and theirs societies. Of course, we wouldn't always get along with our partner on every specific of international policy, but I think we would find that a strong Europe was overall a crucial ally in the challenges of globalization. For instance: With Europe and the US standing side by side, we might together have a fighting chance to put those uppidy Australians in their place (But I doubt even then it would be easy). So, I hope Europe unites.

 

[Flappycat]

Personally, I think it would be more productive for us to try to direct this toward a general economic and cultural alliance between the Western powers, quite simply because China's rise as an economic powerhouse may end up with us clinging on for dear life, at least for a while.

 

[Nehustan]

I think we have done quite enough swaggering during our history, remember, and I argue quite often against the imposition of hollow categories on colonised and mandated 'countries' (read as people), that even the concept of nationhood globally is definately quite recent, and certainly within Europe where borders were 'fluid' for want of a better term, with ruling dynasties often intermarried beyond the boundaries of kingdom establishing agreement (I actually thought this may be an answer to the question 'Why does/did God allow/create war?' if someone starts a thread we can discuss ). During the Medieval period it could be argued that Europe was unified, Christendom. Quite often families allegiances to orders (Monastic and/or Military) and the church would have been stronger than to their monarch and/or country. So it is not so much that Europe is approaching an idyllic future, but revisiting and one might say reinterpreting a medieval past, this point being discussed in circles (and subsequently by conspiracy theorists) as 'The New Middle Ages'.

 

[Nehustan]

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/suncommentary/la-op-modest1jan01,1,3760150.story?coll=la-headlines-suncomment&ctrack=1&cset=true

http://www.cfr.org/publication/10474/new_middle_ages.html

http://educate-yourself.org/nwo/
​

 

[Halcyon]

Is it just me, or are the Europeans beginning to develop some unified sense of "national" identity?

No, i dont think so.

There's no such thing as a European, not in the same sense as there are Americans. The cultural differences between our nations (within Europe) are so great that there will never be, IMO, a single European state.
Remember that we've been developing our individual state identities for well over a thousand years, pretty much since the fall of Rome. We're too diverse to unite in a similar vein to the USA.
Our borders may be becoming more open, but our national identities are millenia old, and won't disappear any time soon.

 

[Nehustan]

Halycon, to illustrate what my last post was about and to emphasise the point about the medieval unity say manifest in knightly orders, let me ask...what do you consider the flag of England?

 

[Nehustan]

Ok I'll treat my question as rhetorical and post a link showing the prevalence of the 'cross of the Temple' in Europe...

http://www.geocities.com/serranho/atelier/faw/faw-it-n.htm
​

 

[ChrisP]

It seems (to me) that unity is definitely developing within Europe, but this is more along cultural lines. Slavic peoples are joining together, Muslim nations also are joining together. The more Western European nations are certainly individuals though, and besides monetary and conflict alliances I can't see that changing.

 

[Sunstone]

Personally, I think it would be more productive for us to try to direct this toward a general economic and cultural alliance between the Western powers, quite simply because China's rise as an economic powerhouse may end up with us clinging on for dear life, at least for a while.

I quite agree. China is a wonderful civilization, I love studying it, and admire the Chinese people, but currently I have a great many issues with China's disrespect for intellectual property laws, its use of forced labor, its nearly fascist alliance between the military and business, its occupation of Tibet, its one party system, its censorship of the press, its internal corruption, its primitive legal system, its devaluation of the yuan, etc. etc. It does not entirely comfort me that such a country is becoming wealthy enough to afford a top notch military. Nor that its competitive practices have so much to be desired in the way of fairness to international trade. But it's on the rise. And, I think there will come a time when America by itself will not be able to compete with China's population and resources. Nor Europe by itself. We might wind up needing each other more than anyone of us thinks we need leaders like Bush and Chirac.

I'm in favor of a global federation. Not necessarily a strong federation, but one strong enough to prevent nuclear wars and handle international issues like global warming. I doubt that day will come. But even if it does come, Flappycat, there will be China to contend with between now and that day.

Halcyon, you might be right that Europe will never unite. You've shown some good reasoning on that. But can Europe become more unified than it is? Or, has it reached the limits of unity?