Everyone gets to Heaven if we destroy Christianity

[Prometheus]

Many are of the belief that if you never hear about Christ then you will be held blameless in your ignorance and go to Heaven. So, I'm really, really confused why people would evangelize. If you don't go around preaching the gospel to people, then they won't learn about it and they'll go to Heaven. The funny thing is, supposedly you're preaching to people so that they can accept Christ and go to Heaven.

So, for every one you preach to who accepts Christ, it's all fine and dandy, but when someone denies Christ, haven't you basically just damned them?

 

[Mustard Seed]

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14:6 (King James Version)​

​

It is only through Jesus that we get into Heaven.
I have not read the whole Bible but if you know of a verse that say's any different, I would love to see it.

Thanks, darnell​

 

[Prometheus]

[/center]

It is only through Jesus that we get into Heaven.
I have not read the whole Bible but if you know of a verse that say's any different, I would love to see it.

Thanks, darnell​

I, of course, was only speaking to the people who believe what I put forth. For those Christians, like you, who think everyone who isn't lucky enough to hear about Christ, including infants, are going to Hell, the topic isn't for you.

 

[James the Persian]

Many are of the belief that if you never hear about Christ then you will be held blameless in your ignorance and go to Heaven. So, I'm really, really confused why people would evangelize. If you don't go around preaching the gospel to people, then they won't learn about it and they'll go to Heaven. The funny thing is, supposedly you're preaching to people so that they can accept Christ and go to Heaven.

So, for every one you preach to who accepts Christ, it's all fine and dandy, but when someone denies Christ, haven't you basically just damned them?

I have quite simply never heard of a Christian who believes all non-Christians are saved, so your question seems rather irrelevant. I do know of Christians (and am one myself) who believe that God may save those outside the Church (though even then they are saved through Christ if one looks at the Incarnational model of soteriology), but their reward is still dependant upon their goodness and their love for God (however dimly they might be aware of Him and however they view Him). I've never yet heard of a Christian who thinks that non-Christians will be excused their bad deeds because they aren't Christian.

The point, therefore, in evangelism is to help people know what God wants of them. It's not that they can't be saved outside the faith (who are we to judge their hearts?) but that we want to give them the best chance to live lives pleasing to God. Your argument is like saying that if we know some people will live to a ripe old age despite smoking 40 a day, we shouldn't go around spoiling smokers' days by telling them it's a dangerous habit that could potentially give them cancer.

James

 

[Prometheus]

I have quite simply never heard of a Christian who believes all non-Christians are saved, so your question seems rather irrelevant.

Romans 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

People can't sin until they learn the law. If you never hear the gospel, you never learn the law. Therefore, if you never hear the gospel you can't sin.

 

[Mustard Seed]

I, of course, was only speaking to the people who believe what I put forth. For those Christians, like you, who think everyone who isn't lucky enough to hear about Christ, including infants, are going to Hell, the topic isn't for you.

What are you talking about?? First off you put your topic in a open religous debate forum. Secondly here's your last sentence to your OP....

So, for every one you preach to who accepts Christ, it's all fine and dandy, but when someone denies Christ, haven't you basically just damned them?

Now if that was'nt directed at Christians, then I really must get my head checked.
Lastly, I was'nt being smart when I posted...re-read it. The only way I know of getting saved is through Jesus Christ our saviour ( and yours whether you choose to believe or not ) and I acknowledged that my understanding of the Bible is not up to par, partly due to not haveing read it all.

 

[Prometheus]

What are you talking about?? First off you put your topic in a open religous debate forum. Secondly here's your last sentence to your OP....

For Christians who don't agree with my interpretation, there isn't a contradiction. So I would think there would be no need to argue it.

However, if you really want to argue that you must accept Christ to get to Heaven, then I shall direct you, again, to Romans 5:13.

 

[James the Persian]

Romans 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

People can't sin until they learn the law. If you never hear the gospel, you never learn the law. Therefore, if you never hear the gospel you can't sin.

The Gospel isn't the law, though. I've still never heard a Christian claim what you have said many do. I note that you completely ignored the rest of my post.

James

 

[Mustard Seed]

For Christians who don't agree with my interpretation, there isn't a contradiction. So I would think there would be no need to argue it.

However, if you really want to argue that you must accept Christ to get to Heaven, then I shall direct you, again, to Romans 5:13.

I really have no clue what you are talking about. Your first sentence does not make sense...or maybe its just me.

I have no desire to argue with you and you have a good day!

 

[Prometheus]

The Gospel isn't the law, though.

So how does God get His law to man if not through the Bible?

I note that you...

Just because I didn't quote it, doesn't mean I ignored it. I just didn't bother responding to it because it didn't address the question in the OP. This is about the afterlife, not how good it is to have the gospel in this life.

 

[James the Persian]

So how does God get His law to man if not through the Bible?

It's got nothing to do with the law. We aren't judged according to the law any more. Clearly you don't get one of the most fundamental aspects of Christianity.

Just because I didn't quote it, doesn't mean I ignored it. I just didn't bother responding to it because it didn't address the question in the OP. This is about the afterlife, not how good it is to have the gospel in this life.

And yet what I wrote was about the afterlife, not how good it is to have the Gospel in this life. I'm not surprised that you misunderstood, though, seeing as you miunderstand what the Gospel is in the first place.

James

 

[yuvgotmel]

Prometheus,

I too have heard some Christians claim what you were asking about in the Opening Post, though I do not know how common that belief is. I tend to think it's not that common.

At any rate, it is a good question either way. Maybe you should ask the Christians, all of them, what happens to the people who never hear about Christianity before death.

...Make sure to ask them about the people that existed prior to Christianity.

...Make sure to also ask them about extraterrestrials.

 

[James the Persian]

Prometheus,

I too have heard some Christians claim what you were asking about in the Opening Post, though I do not know how common that belief is. I tend to think it's not that common.

At any rate, it is a good question either way. Maybe you should ask the Christians, all of them, what happens to the people who never hear about Christianity before death.

...Make sure to ask them about the people that existed prior to Christianity.

...Make sure to also ask them about extraterrestrials.

I can answer it from our perspective right now. All those who do not follow Christ, unless they wilfully rejected Him (knowing the truth) which is hardly likely to be common, will have a chance of salvation. Christ's Incarnation brought the whole of creation back into communion with God and each individual may be saved by the God who wills that all should be saved, whether they have heard the Gospel or not. Those who live a life in opposition to God and continue to oppose Him even when confronted by His inescapable love after death will experience it as hell, those who return love with love will experience heaven. All will have eternal life as, in that sense, all are already saved by the efects of the Incarnation. It's all about how we respond to God's love, not about living up to some set of legalistic rules and requirements.

James

 

[yuvgotmel]

I can answer it from our perspective right now. All those who do not follow Christ, unless they wilfully rejected Him (knowing the truth) which is hardly likely to be common, will have a chance of salvation. Christ's Incarnation brought the whole of creation back into communion with God and each individual may be saved by the God who wills that all should be saved, whether they have heard the Gospel or not. Those who live a life in opposition to God and continue to oppose Him even when confronted by His inescapable love after death will experience it as hell, those who return love with love will experience heaven. All will have eternal life as, in that sense, all are already saved by the efects of the Incarnation. It's all about how we respond to God's love, not about living up to some set of legalistic rules and requirements.

James

hummm....This brings up questions that would be better suited for another thread. ...Just not sure how to word it. Salvation is a strange term...

Anyway...What about extraterrestrials? Do they need to be baptized and so on?

 

[Mustard Seed]

Anyway...What about extraterrestrials? Do they need to be baptized and so on?

hmmm.....anyway's, grow up. :sarcastic

 

[yuvgotmel]

hmmm.....anyway's, grow up. :sarcastic

...Would you say that to the Pope?

Maybe you are merely uninformed and for that, I can help... http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0506301.htm

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]VATICAN LETTER Nov-4-2005

Do space aliens have souls? Inquiring minds can check Jesuit's book

By Carol Glatz
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Galaxy-gazing scientists surely wonder about what kind of impact finding life or intelligent beings on another planet would have on the world.

But what sort of effect would it have on Catholic beliefs? Would Christian theology be rocked to the core if science someday found a distant orb teeming with little green men, women or other intelligent forms of alien life? Would the church send missionaries to spread the Gospel to aliens? Could aliens even be baptized? Or would they have had their own version of Jesus and have already experienced his universal or galactic plan of salvation?

(more at link above)
[/FONT]

 

[James the Persian]

hummm....This brings up questions that would be better suited for another thread. ...Just not sure how to word it. Salvation is a strange term...

It's a strange one for me, too. It's not a word I'd normally use but it's more familiar to westerners than theosis. What I mean is an eternity in communion with God, and never ending progress towards perfection. Salvation, for us is not really quite the same as the common conception of 'going to heaven', and in a sense we already are saved (for we are no longer subject to death).

Anyway...What about extraterrestrials? Do they need to be baptized and so on?

Of course not. I'm surprised that you even feel a need to ask this. If, indeed, there are ETs, are they not also part of the creation reconciled to God at the Incarnation? What exactly, is the qualitative difference, spiritually speaking, between an ET and a 10th century Amozonian Indian? If the latter can be saved despite not following Christ (which I clearly affirmed) why shouldn't the same apply to the former? Of course, if we're ever in the position to be able to witness to them, they would benefit from the Gospel just as unevangelised humans do.

James

 

[yuvgotmel]

If, indeed, there are ETs, are they not also part of the creation reconciled to God at the Incarnation? What exactly, is the qualitative difference, spiritually speaking, between an ET and a 10th century Amozonian Indian? If the latter can be saved despite not following Christ (which I clearly affirmed) why shouldn't the same apply to the former? Of course, if we're ever in the position to be able to witness to them, they would benefit from the Gospel just as unevangelised humans do.

James

Ok... Thanx for clearing all of that up (even the first part). That makes sense to me too.

 

[Prometheus]

I can answer it from our perspective right now. All those who do not follow Christ, unless they wilfully rejected Him (knowing the truth) which is hardly likely to be common, will have a chance of salvation. Christ's Incarnation brought the whole of creation back into communion with God and each individual may be saved by the God who wills that all should be saved, whether they have heard the Gospel or not. Those who live a life in opposition to God and continue to oppose Him even when confronted by His inescapable love after death will experience it as hell, those who return love with love will experience heaven. All will have eternal life as, in that sense, all are already saved by the efects of the Incarnation. It's all about how we respond to God's love, not about living up to some set of legalistic rules and requirements.

James

If you say that people can be saved without following Christ, but those that deny Him can't, I think this proves my point.

 

[James the Persian]

If you say that people can be saved without following Christ, but those that deny Him can't, I think this proves my point.

How so? I'm afraid I don't understand. Wilfully rejecting Christ when knowing who He is, is to return love with ingratitude, which fully fits in with what I said about responding to love with love and little if anything to do with what you claimed in the OP. I think you managed to skip over the point where I said '(knowing the truth)' and have taken rejection of Christ to mean something other than what I said. Saying, 'I don't believe because I've not yet found a reason to do so', is very different from saying 'I accept who You are and what You've done for man, but I choose reject You anyway'. I should think such an action is very rare indeed - perhaps nobody in the history of Christianity has ever rejected Christ in that way. I mean would you? If you were convinced that what I tell you about Christ were true and were convinced of what rejecting Him would mean, would you still go ahead and do it?

James