Evidence for “a god” at John 10:33

[Muffled]

Kyrios was one of the words they substituted for (YHWH) the name of God. You know like how in English they substituted his name with LORD in the old testament. When it was written in Greek, they replaced his name with Kyrios.

It is all Lord to me. I guess it is a pretty provocative vocative, lol.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

It is all Lord to me. I guess it is a pretty provocative vocative, lol.

My point was if we had the original text to look at - Thomas would actually be saying "My YHWH and my God".

 

[YoursTrue]

I believe there is no trapping. I believe God prays because He has needs just as anyone does. And who else would He pray to? There is no-one else. It is like God swears by Himself because there isn't anything greater to swear by.

So Jesus, who you say is fully human and fully God at the same time, and was equal to the other two godpersons, but are you saying each of them had needs and so prayed to themselves or another godperson? And were all three fully human and fully God at the same time? Does that make sense to you? Just wondering, and hope you're having a really good day.

 

[YoursTrue]

My point was if we had the original text to look at - Thomas would actually be saying "My YHWH and my God".

Not necessarily. Perhaps it is directly translated from the original text. My God is one expression properly used. So is my Lord. But no one can rightly say, My YHWH. Or my Jesus.

 

[YoursTrue]

It is all Lord to me. I guess it is a pretty provocative vocative, lol.

I interpret that comment to mean that it doesn't matter to you that Jesus is not spelled Lord or God in the Hebrew or Greek texts, and so when Lord or God is written in the Bible, you might as well say Jesus. Am I right about this? Or, of course, the trinity instead of Lord and God. After all, why not? Just wondering. But it has been pleasant speaking with you.

 

[Brian2]

Almost every version of John 10:33 that I’ve checked, says “God”...that the Jews were saying that Jesus was implying that he was God.

Is this accurate? (It certainly fits with mainstream teachings of Christendom.)

Well, there is a very easy way to determine what was actually said and meant.

All four Gospel accounts record the “raking over the coals” Jesus received from the High Priest and the other religious leaders, they were even looking to find false witnesses against him, so great was their hatred!

Yet, never once did anyone accuse Jesus of implying he was God, which they certainly would have done if those Jews had accused him of such!!

It’s obvious that the verse should read, “a god”, which was the argument Jesus proceeded with, at John 10:34.

It’s just another verse where Greek grammar’s lack of the indefinite article is used to promote faulty theology.

Isn't the real problem that they thought Jesus was making Himself equal to God with His claim to be God's Son.

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, “To this very day My Father is at His work, and I too am working.” 18Because of this, the Jews tried all the harder to kill Him. Not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

In this chapter Jesus answer seemed to actually be showing Himself to be God who is the one who was to come to judge everyone in the OT.
Ps 96:12 Let the fields exult, and all that is in them. Then all the trees of the forest will sing for joy 13 before the LORD, for He is coming— He is coming to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples in His faithfulness.
And Jesus claims to be able to do everything that the Father can do.
So Jesus was clarifying His relationship with His Father but was not denying His equality of nature.
Ps 96:12 Let the fields exult, and all that is in them. Then all the trees of the forest will sing for joy 13 before the LORD, for He is coming— He is coming to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples in His faithfulness.

Also with Jesus answer to making Himself God in John 10 He ends up with a further attempts on His life when He claimed to be in the Father and the Father to be in Him.
And even the answer He gave about those to whom God's word had come being called gods really is a claim to being greater than these.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son'.

Jesus was claiming to be greater than the judges of Ps 82, and to have been with His Father before being sent to earth. Interestingly also when we look at Psalm 82, the last verse is interesting for us in that is shows God to be the one who will judge the earth and will inherit the earth.
Ps 82:8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

We already know that it is Jesus who will rise up to judge the earth and who is the inheritor of the nations.
Psalm 2:7 I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:
He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
8 Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will break them with a rod of iron;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”
10 Therefore, you kings, be wise;
be warned, you rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

 

[Brian2]

Instead he summarizes his Gospel in 20:30, 31 with "these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God...."
Why no summary including 'Jesus is God'?

Maybe because Jesus taught that the one true God is His Father. BUT Jesus being the Son of this one true God means that Jesus nature is the same as His Father. ie. they are equal in nature.
So really the summary was a claim to the divinity of Jesus.
And we already know from the clear statement of John (John 1:1-3) that ALL things that were made, with the exception of none, were made through the Word. The Word is exactly like His Father in all ways, including His eternality.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
This means that the Word was not made/created/brought into being.

 

[YoursTrue]

John 20:28
I believe the JW interpretation is that Thomas is applying 'god' in its lesser sense to Jesus. Numerous trinitarian scholars admit that theos may be used for judges, kings, angels, etc. who are appointed by God to do his will.

While I certainly don't disagree, I do see a probable alternate.

NT Scholars admit that commonly used expressions and doxologies to God are often abbreviated by leaving out words.

The reason I believe that Thomas is not addressing God in this verse is that John (and, I believe, all other NT writers) always uses the vocative kurie when addressing someone as 'Lord.' Since kurios, not kurie, is used here, this is a praise or promise to God: "My Lord [kurios] and my God be praised," "May my Lord [kurios] and God [be witness that I believe you have been resurrected]....”

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/10/mygod.html

Notice the parallel between 1 Samuel 20:12 (where Jonathan’s words appear to be directed to David: “... Jonathan saith unto David, ‘Jehovah, God of Israel - when I search my father, about this time tomorrow ....’” - Young’s Literal Translation, cf. KJV) and John 20:28 (where Thomas’ words appear to be directed to Jesus: “Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’”).

The significant point here is that, although the scripture shows Jonathan speaking to David, it apparently literally calls him (David) “O LORD God of Israel”!! (For a straightforward literal translation see 1 Samuel 20:12 in the King James Version.) You can bet that, if modern Bible translators wanted to find “evidence” that made King David also appear to be equally God (Quadrinarians?), they would continue to translate this scripture addressed to David just as literally as they do John 20:28 to “prove” that Jesus is equally God!

Instead, we see many modern translations adding words to bring out what they believe may have been originally intended. There is absolutely no reason for this addition except the translators believe from the testimony of the rest of the Bible that David is not Jehovah God. So something else must have been intended here.

Translators from about 200 B.C. (Septuagint) until now have been guessing (and disagreeing) at exactly what was intended here. It was probably some common idiom of the time such as: “I promise you in the sight of the LORD the God of Israel” - NEB, or, as found in the ancient Septuagint: “Jonathan said unto David, ‘The Lord [kurios] God of Israel knows that....’”

Perhaps the most-used interpretation is: “Jehovah, the God of Israel, (be witness)....” - ASV (cf. NASB, RSV, AT, NKJV).

There is no reason to believe that Thomas is calling Jesus 'God' at Jn. It is significant that John does not follow up this blockbuster (if the Trinitarian interpretation were true) with further references to this great 'truth.'

Instead he summarizes his Gospel in 20:30, 31 with "these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God...."

Why no summary including 'Jesus is God'?

Your summary of the events and statements is well thought out. Particularly where Thomas exclaimed to the resurrected Jesus, "My God and my Lord!" this could mean that upon seeing the resurrected Jesus in person, Thomas was astounded and also recognized that Jesus was no longer the Jesus he knew prior to the resurrection but was now in a much superior position. Jesus is rightfully called a God, or God (depending upon context and application), but he is not said to be equal to his Father and there is no indication that he considered himself as one of three persons combining to make up a being..

 

[YoursTrue]

Maybe because Jesus taught that the one true God is His Father. BUT Jesus being the Son of this one true God means that Jesus nature is the same as His Father. ie. they are equal in nature.
So really the summary was a claim to the divinity of Jesus.
And we already know from the clear statement of John (John 1:1-3) that ALL things that were made, with the exception of none, were made through the Word. The Word is exactly like His Father in all ways, including His eternality.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
This means that the Word was not made/created/brought into being.

If I may, one needs to figure what in the beginning means. It would have to refer to something specific.

 

[Brian2]

If I may, one needs to figure what in the beginning means. It would have to refer to something specific.

No, if All things that have been made were made through the Word then the Word was not made/brought into being and so is eternal. This is the case no matter what "in the beginning" refers to.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, if All things that have been made were made through the Word then the Word was not made/brought into being and so is eternal. This is the case no matter what "in the beginning" refers to.

Thank you for your response.
In good conscience, I would have to mention that the Word usually refers to Jesus, including the expression, "the Word of God," does it not? (Note the Word OF God...)
The beginning is spoken of 'at the beginning,' (or in the beginning) of Genesis, and then 'in the beginning' of John chapter 1. The beginning is referring to a specific point in time. But I figure we will differ, and that's ok, because that's what makes things the way they are, or as some say, that's what makes the world go round. However, I'd like to look at it closer with you for a moment or two.
"In the beginning...God created the heavens and the earth." (Genesis 1:1)
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1) - (common translation)
Now we know most people assume the trinity here, or some mysterious statement of God being with God. (But anyway, that's two.) Because the Word that was WITH God is said to also BE God. But we know the word God applies in different circumstances, so it does not necessarily mean that the Word (eventually known as Jesus) was the God he was with. In any case, 'in the beginning' means there was a beginning.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, if All things that have been made were made through the Word then the Word was not made/brought into being and so is eternal. This is the case no matter what "in the beginning" refers to.

Please look at my other answer, but the fact that all things have been made through the Word is referring to the "beginning."

 

[YoursTrue]

Isn't the real problem that they thought Jesus was making Himself equal to God with His claim to be God's Son.

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, “To this very day My Father is at His work, and I too am working.” 18Because of this, the Jews tried all the harder to kill Him. Not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

In this chapter Jesus answer seemed to actually be showing Himself to be God who is the one who was to come to judge everyone in the OT.
Ps 96:12 Let the fields exult, and all that is in them. Then all the trees of the forest will sing for joy 13 before the LORD, for He is coming— He is coming to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples in His faithfulness.
And Jesus claims to be able to do everything that the Father can do.
So Jesus was clarifying His relationship with His Father but was not denying His equality of nature.
Ps 96:12 Let the fields exult, and all that is in them. Then all the trees of the forest will sing for joy 13 before the LORD, for He is coming— He is coming to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples in His faithfulness.

Also with Jesus answer to making Himself God in John 10 He ends up with a further attempts on His life when He claimed to be in the Father and the Father to be in Him.
And even the answer He gave about those to whom God's word had come being called gods really is a claim to being greater than these.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son'.

Jesus was claiming to be greater than the judges of Ps 82, and to have been with His Father before being sent to earth. Interestingly also when we look at Psalm 82, the last verse is interesting for us in that is shows God to be the one who will judge the earth and will inherit the earth.
Ps 82:8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

We already know that it is Jesus who will rise up to judge the earth and who is the inheritor of the nations.
Psalm 2:7 I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:
He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
8 Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will break them with a rod of iron;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”
10 Therefore, you kings, be wise;
be warned, you rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

They knew that if Jesus existed before Abraham, being the SON of God, he is in a very, very powerful position.

 

[Brian2]

Thank you for your response.
In good conscience, I would have to mention that the Word usually refers to Jesus, including the expression, "the Word of God," does it not? (Note the Word OF God...)
The beginning is spoken of 'at the beginning,' (or in the beginning) of Genesis, and then 'in the beginning' of John chapter 1. The beginning is referring to a specific point in time. But I figure we will differ, and that's ok, because that's what makes things the way they are, or as some say, that's what makes the world go round. However, I'd like to look at it closer with you for a moment or two.
"In the beginning...God created the heavens and the earth." (Genesis 1:1)
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1) - (common translation)
Now we know most people assume the trinity here, or some mysterious statement of God being with God. (But anyway, that's two.) Because the Word that was WITH God is said to also BE God. But we know the word God applies in different circumstances, so it does not necessarily mean that the Word (eventually known as Jesus) was the God he was with. In any case, 'in the beginning' means there was a beginning.

You seem to be not understanding what I am saying and what John 1:3 tells us.
John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

If that is the case then the Word cannot be one of the things that has been made. Therefore the Word has always been in existence.
It does not matter when the beginning was or what happened then for this logic to be valid.

 

[Brian2]

They knew that if Jesus existed before Abraham, being the SON of God, he is in a very, very powerful position.

Which is in John 8 and which answers nothing of what I posted in post 186.
Claiming to be in a powerful position was no reason to stone someone and a claim to be a son of God is no problem for the Jews who also claim the same for themselves at John 8:41 and who knew that many in the Hebrew Scriptures are called sons of God. What the Jews did not like is that Jesus was saying that He was the special Son of God,,,,,,,,,,,the real Son of God who comes from His Father and is God's heir.
That Jesus is the real Son of God who comes from God is what makes Jesus equal in nature to His Father.
And Jesus did not even deny that is what He was claiming.
Jesus could have dispelled those ideas from the Jews by just saying what you believe,,,,,,,,,that He was the first creation of God. But He did not do that and even made it plain in the gospels that He created all things and so was not created. But because of your doctrines you ignore those plain statements and even add words to try to change them and then twist other statements to try to make it look as if Jesus was a created being.

 

[YoursTrue]

Isn't the real problem that they thought Jesus was making Himself equal to God with His claim to be God's Son.

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, “To this very day My Father is at His work, and I too am working.” 18Because of this, the Jews tried all the harder to kill Him. Not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

In this chapter Jesus answer seemed to actually be showing Himself to be God who is the one who was to come to judge everyone in the OT.
Ps 96:12 Let the fields exult, and all that is in them. Then all the trees of the forest will sing for joy 13 before the LORD, for He is coming— He is coming to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples in His faithfulness.
And Jesus claims to be able to do everything that the Father can do.
So Jesus was clarifying His relationship with His Father but was not denying His equality of nature.
Ps 96:12 Let the fields exult, and all that is in them. Then all the trees of the forest will sing for joy 13 before the LORD, for He is coming— He is coming to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples in His faithfulness.

Also with Jesus answer to making Himself God in John 10 He ends up with a further attempts on His life when He claimed to be in the Father and the Father to be in Him.
And even the answer He gave about those to whom God's word had come being called gods really is a claim to being greater than these.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son'.

Jesus was claiming to be greater than the judges of Ps 82, and to have been with His Father before being sent to earth. Interestingly also when we look at Psalm 82, the last verse is interesting for us in that is shows God to be the one who will judge the earth and will inherit the earth.
Ps 82:8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

We already know that it is Jesus who will rise up to judge the earth and who is the inheritor of the nations.
Psalm 2:7 I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:
He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
8 Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will break them with a rod of iron;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”
10 Therefore, you kings, be wise;
be warned, you rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

Evidently the Jewish leaders did not want him to be the Messiah, also the idea that he lived in heaven before Abraham existed put him in a very delicate position with the Jewish leaders, who did not want correction or recognize Jesus, a humble man, as the one sent by God.

 

[YoursTrue]

Which is in John 8 and which answers nothing of what I posted in post 186.
Claiming to be in a powerful position was no reason to stone someone and a claim to be a son of God is no problem for the Jews who also claim the same for themselves at John 8:41 and who knew that many in the Hebrew Scriptures are called sons of God. What the Jews did not like is that Jesus was saying that He was the special Son of God,,,,,,,,,,,the real Son of God who comes from His Father and is God's heir.
That Jesus is the real Son of God who comes from God is what makes Jesus equal in nature to His Father.
And Jesus did not even deny that is what He was claiming.
Jesus could have dispelled those ideas from the Jews by just saying what you believe,,,,,,,,,that He was the first creation of God. But He did not do that and even made it plain in the gospels that He created all things and so was not created. But because of your doctrines you ignore those plain statements and even add words to try to change them and then twist other statements to try to make it look as if Jesus was a created being.

Sorry for any misunderstanding. Powerful in that he was the Son of God having come from heaven, who had been in heaven with God his Father before he came to the earth. When he was put to death, he was mocked as some of the onlookers told him to get off the stake.

 

[YoursTrue]

Isn't the real problem that they thought Jesus was making Himself equal to God with His claim to be God's Son.

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, “To this very day My Father is at His work, and I too am working.” 18Because of this, the Jews tried all the harder to kill Him. Not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

In this chapter Jesus answer seemed to actually be showing Himself to be God who is the one who was to come to judge everyone in the OT.
Ps 96:12 Let the fields exult, and all that is in them. Then all the trees of the forest will sing for joy 13 before the LORD, for He is coming— He is coming to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples in His faithfulness.
And Jesus claims to be able to do everything that the Father can do.
So Jesus was clarifying His relationship with His Father but was not denying His equality of nature.
Ps 96:12 Let the fields exult, and all that is in them. Then all the trees of the forest will sing for joy 13 before the LORD, for He is coming— He is coming to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples in His faithfulness.

Also with Jesus answer to making Himself God in John 10 He ends up with a further attempts on His life when He claimed to be in the Father and the Father to be in Him.
And even the answer He gave about those to whom God's word had come being called gods really is a claim to being greater than these.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son'.

Jesus was claiming to be greater than the judges of Ps 82, and to have been with His Father before being sent to earth. Interestingly also when we look at Psalm 82, the last verse is interesting for us in that is shows God to be the one who will judge the earth and will inherit the earth.
Ps 82:8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

We already know that it is Jesus who will rise up to judge the earth and who is the inheritor of the nations.
Psalm 2:7 I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:
He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
8 Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will break them with a rod of iron;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”
10 Therefore, you kings, be wise;
be warned, you rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

Yes. Remember the illustration of the vineyard and the cultivators. At last the owner sent out his son. And they killed him. Psalm 2 as you have it, also describes it. Thanks for your input.

 

[YoursTrue]

I represent God therefore I am God over you.

Jesus was put to death. He performed miracles, healed the sick, even resurrected the dead, proving he was from God. Yet the religious leaders rejected him and persecuted him

 

[YoursTrue]

Isn't that wonderful? More for me.

Ok