He had very concise descriptions of belief and faith in regards to religion that offered functional use for debate. Theology often gets muddled and meanings are fuzzy and often incomprehensible.
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Evidence for a god existing or not existing
- Thread starter We Never Know
- Start date
The traditional reply by Atheist philosophers, is that you are applying the parts to the whole (all parts need a cause, so the whole thing needs a cause), in case of infinite regression. However, another way to think of it, is not in this way (parts to the whole) but through induction. If you see through induction, that infinite regression would still need a cause, then it's not applying parts to the whole.
As for the inductions, it's to see the pattern, will remain in a infinite from the finite case. And this is true. No matter how long the line (even of infinite size), they are all effects, and hence need a cause. It's through induction, and not saying, because the whole thing is effects, it requires a cause.
It's subtle, but if you see infinite regression requiring a first cause through induction, it's a solid and there is no refutation. If you see it through parts to the whole, it's a unproven reason, and unproven proof.
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
So how does the objective thinker know there are genuine miracles and a God, and not just a big fraud that theists have been drawn into?
In this age, it's extremely complicated how to know this. In the past, the miracles were public and people accused the Prophets and Messengers as being sorcerers.
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Nope. There is no reason in principle why time can't extend in the past direction infinitely and without a cause. In fact the whole argument about 'first cause' is based in a Newtonian view of time. In relativistic terms we have a space-time manifold which may or may not be infinite in any direction. The manifold as a whole would be a timeless 4-dimnesional object because time is a direction though it.
There are reasons. If you see a billion effects, requires a cause previous to it, and you can see this would remain no matter how long the line get's (infinite size included) and surely it is a requirement of an effect that it requires a cause, then it's not applying the parts to the whole but inductively concluding, it would still need a cause.
Is this knowledge you claim to have? If so then give us a brief explanation of how you attained this knowledge objectively and without bias.
Sure. even what we observe can be explained as natural processes is there any objective reason to assume there's a supernatural cause over more natural causes?
As for what I personally witnessed, I can't prove. All I can do is point to that the Quran recited many times and with reflection, will change the Quran in your mind in a way that almost and it seems to be the case, exponential in guidance. The Quran doesn't stay the same in your mind, it warps, the more you read it with attentiveness, the more it warps itself to a whole new book, and opens doors, and you begin to see, that you hardly know anything from it, even though you gained so much knowledge from it, the book is designed in a way to amplify in guidance in a exponential curve. A lot people because an exponential curve starts slow, give up, and finding nothing of use or guidance or insights or miracles of it, but if you give it a chance, over and over again.... I guarantee if you do so that it will be not like a book you know and it will open doors to understand the family of the reminder just as they open doors to understanding the Quran.
It's my testimony, you can test it. As for whether I witnessed spiritual world or miracles or seen the leader of time, all these claims can't be proven for anyone to claim except for God's Messengers and Prophets and the chosen holy ladies.
Once you establish there is a first cause, then we can talk about what it is. For example, does it have a cause? It cannot. Does time keep it or did it create time. If it did the latter, what is it. etc.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Looool. mate. You just asked for a source because you didnt know about it, and you now say "I have done". Earlier you were wondering about the Turing test, but you claim "I have done" when asked to read the book by Penrose. You made a claim about WCH as conflicting contradicting Penrose himself. It is obvious you didnt understand any of this.
Respond to it.
Mate. Where does he say WCH is the answer or antithesis to his own calculations. Could you please show where? This is exactly what you claimed.
Our brains often misinterpret what we see and witness, especially if there is an active subconscious bias. So is it possible you're mistaken?
If a person wants meaning in their life and they think the Quran will give them this meaning, then they will decide the meaning is there. This is subjective and irrelevant to an objective mind.
You're not describing an objective phenomenon to test. You're saying you found meaning in something and that I can test whether it gives me meaning. Even if it did it would not provide any evidence that what we find meaningful has inherent meaning. It only points to we fallible mortals who evolved to seek meaning decided the Quran had some for us.
So, none of this is knowledge that a God exists or that miracles exist in reality.
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What will you do if there is no first cause? Energy might be eternal, no beginning at all. Then what do you do?
And I often hear people say that everything has a cause. Well, then so does God, who is what is claimed to be the first cause. his is a logical absurdity, so we can't go there.
All I'm saying if you give God's book a chance, you will find it unique and exponential in recreating itself in your mind and forging itself. I told you I can't prove it, but you can test it if you wish.
Energy requires time, can't create time. Anything in time, is caused.
Is the Tanakh not God's book also? How about the Gospels? The Mormon Bible? What about the Vedas? How about the Urantia book? Have you opened yourself up to all those?
And what will the Quran do if I give it a chance? What is it you think I need that i can get something out of this book?
Tell that to the singularity before the Big Bang.
As you may have likely noticed, I introduced myself as a 'Student of Jesus'; this is much like being a 'student at a university'.
I didn’t say I am Christian because, Jesus is my source of knowledge, not a source of certain fiction or magic.
What I was able to get from His various sayings is like a branch of science which we may call ‘science of reality’; it simply describes the real world as it runs on the ground and, obviously, the deep nature which I perceive and am made of.
But, as most people in the world don’t have a real interest in taking advantage of advanced Math and Physics, this science of reality is also not for all humans. Actually, rare people may be real interested in knowing the real world behind the various masks that one may face almost daily. Usually, being ignorant of certain real things (truths) helps people be on the safe side while playing in any of the masters/slaves natural games in the world’s jungle (These games are guided by the golden rule: Survival of the Strongest).
Just to please your curiosity, I will give an example.
Jesus reminds me that a rich man, privileged by a law (said of God or Man) cannot be sincere mainly when he addresses the multitudes. At best, he can reveal half-truths whose effects are even worse than of lies. This applies also on any privileged person who is allowed to serve a powerful rich group; religious or political for a few. The reason is simple. In both cases, a person cannot be real free and independent. He has to protect not only the secrets of his business but also of all others in his high class. But, if someday he decides to be free and independent while addressing the multitudes, he knows in advance that, at best, he will lose all his privileges and live as the common people do (actually he may face a much worse fate than this).
I even verified this natural trust several times in person. I had the chance to meet in private, when I was younger, various privileged persons (rich or serving a rich group). They all didn’t mind confirming this truth though after I promised each of them that I will keep it to myself. And being aware of this reality (besides many other natural truths), I have a clear picture of what is happening in the world behind the scenes. I also know it is not wise disturbing yours.
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
This isn't logic it's assertion based on nothing (as far as I can see) but intuition. Each event is likely to be an effect and a cause. And you ignored the fact that you're stuck in the nineteenth century, Newtonian view of time. The space-time manifold is, as a whole, timeless and unchanging. Time is merely a direction through it.