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Evidence for a Young Earth (Not Billions of Years Old)

Justatruthseeker

Active Member
So, you are ignoring that I gave you a quote showing the deceleration of the universe?
No I am ignoring you gave me a quote based upon standard candles after those standard candles were found to be not so standard.....

And while doing so, you turn it into a diatribe against the whole theory?
The whole theory is flawed, it led to the belief that standard candles were standard candles despite being found to not be standard candles. It led to the theory that standard candles could be used to accurately determine distance, despite not being standard candles. The entire theory led to the belief of how solar systems form and that the magnetic field at the heliosphere would veer sideways. All of those models were found to be incorrect with in situ measurements, but of course you refuse to question the theories that led them to every model of the heliosphere being incorrect....

Nothing else needs to be said. You clearly don't care about the science, but instead about getting the Earth to be less than billions of years old. Which, by the way, also fails.
Says the person ignoring that changes in velocity slow clocks....

So let's assume you are correct. that for a brief time the velocity slowed. IT THEN SPED BACK UP AND HAS CONTINUED TO INCREASE. To just below fractions of c. Yet even knowing this, you refuse to account for time dilation. So very true, nothing else needs to be said, your own statements would still contradict your claim of no time dilation.......
 
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Astrophile

Active Member
Ahh yes, the standard candles that were found to be not so standard that are still calculated using the same theory that incorrectly calculated they were standard candles..... And the Ad-hoc theory to bandaid the blood flow begins in earnest.....

NASA - Cosmology Standard Candle not so Standard After All

"that keeping this ladder secure requires even more careful attention to Cepheids. The telescope's infrared observations of one particular Cepheid provide the first direct evidence that these stars can lose mass—or essentially shrink. This could affect measurements of their distances.

"We have shown that these particular standard candles are slowly consumed by their wind," said Massimo Marengo of Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa, lead author of a recent study on the discovery appearing in the Astronomical Journal. "When using Cepheids as standard candles, we must be extra careful because, much like actual candles, they are consumed as they burn.""

So they use calculations that consider them as standard candles, don't take into affect the mass shrinkage which affects their distance calculations which then affects their results based upon expansion rates because they calculate the incorrect distance.....

This is an interesting piece of work, but unfortunately it is only a preliminary observation. It will take a great deal more work before scientists understand the implications of this work for the physics of Cepheids (both their pulsation periods and amplitudes and their measured luminosities). However, these observations are not likely to vitiate the whole method of using Cepheids as standard candles. For example, it is extremely unlikely that the occurrence of mass loss will change the luminosities of Cepheids so much that, for example, the distance of the Virgo cluster of galaxies (which contains Cepheids) will be reduced to less than a million light-years. In simple terms, Cepheids are still supergiants, and that is why they are losing so much mass (about a hundred-millionth of a solar mass per year). If the Cepheids of the Virgo cluster were faint enough for the cluster to be less than a million light-years away, they would be dwarf stars; as a result, their pulsation periods would be only a few hours (instead of days or weeks) and their mass loss rates would be similar to the Sun's (about a hundred-trillionth of a solar mass per year).

If you have any more information about this research, I should be interested to read it. Also, do you know of any published information about the distance errors that are likely to be introduced by the observed mass loss rates of Cepheids? Specifically, several methods agree on a distance of 16.5±0.1 Mpc (53.8±0.3 million light-years) for the Virgo cluster - Virgo Cluster - Wikipedia ; can you offer a better estimate of the distance and explain how you obtained it?

Because distance by redshift is a Doppler calculation and recessional velocity is a requirement in Doppler.... But remember, it isn't actually a velocity... So did they calculate length contraction and time dilation when calculating distance, because of the recessional velocity.... or did they ignore that and use spacetime scale changes which would affect the scale of rulers and clocks, but would rule out any chance of an accurate distance since Hubble's law requires a direct correlation to recessional velocity????

Don't try to peddle off your pseudoscience bandaids to prevent the loss of blood killing your theory. Accept it is velocity in which case Distance can be correlated but only if time and length calculations are included, which they are not, or just accept you cant calculate distance because it isn't a Doppler shift in which case their claims are meaningless anyways....

You seem to be confusing the use of Cepheids as standard candles to measure distances inside the Milky Way and the distances of comparatively nearby galaxies and galaxy clusters with the use of redshift as an observational parameter of very remote objects. So far as I understand it, in cosmology, redshift is used more as a measure of look-back time than of distance, and the redshift-magnitude diagram is used as a test of theoretical cosmological models. At the distances at which Cepheids can be used as standard candles (up to about 30 Mpc), the length contraction and time dilation resulting from the recession velocity are insignificant (a factor of about 5×10^-5, if I have calculated it correctly).
 

Justatruthseeker

Active Member
This is an interesting piece of work, but unfortunately it is only a preliminary observation. It will take a great deal more work before scientists understand the implications of this work for the physics of Cepheids (both their pulsation periods and amplitudes and their measured luminosities). However, these observations are not likely to vitiate the whole method of using Cepheids as standard candles. For example, it is extremely unlikely that the occurrence of mass loss will change the luminosities of Cepheids so much that, for example, the distance of the Virgo cluster of galaxies (which contains Cepheids) will be reduced to less than a million light-years. In simple terms, Cepheids are still supergiants, and that is why they are losing so much mass (about a hundred-millionth of a solar mass per year). If the Cepheids of the Virgo cluster were faint enough for the cluster to be less than a million light-years away, they would be dwarf stars; as a result, their pulsation periods would be only a few hours (instead of days or weeks) and their mass loss rates would be similar to the Sun's (about a hundred-trillionth of a solar mass per year).

If you have any more information about this research, I should be interested to read it. Also, do you know of any published information about the distance errors that are likely to be introduced by the observed mass loss rates of Cepheids? Specifically, several methods agree on a distance of 16.5±0.1 Mpc (53.8±0.3 million light-years) for the Virgo cluster - Virgo Cluster - Wikipedia ; can you offer a better estimate of the distance and explain how you obtained it?
Agreed, but in the meantime they will use those supernova as standard candles....

Despite the conflicting data on supernovea....

From bigger than theoretically posible...

'Champagne Supernova' breaks astronomical rules | CBC News

"A massive supernova, bigger than previously believed possible, could have astronomers rethinking how stars explode and even how far away stars and galaxies are."

Another theory not mentioned is simply that they don't actually understand anything about supernova...

To wondering if they are even what they thought they were.

https://gizmodo.com/a-famous-supernovas-mysteries-are-still-unraveling-hund-1818816208

To defying that standard scenario over and over....

‘Crazy’ Supernova Looks Like a New Kind of Star Death | Quanta Magazine

And back to theory they don't really understand what supernova actually are, but will apply bandaids to stop the hemorrhaging....

To those that just won't die.....

Astronomers find bizarre 'zombie supernova' that just won't die

""This supernova breaks everything we thought we knew about how they work,""

And still their models all fail and have always failed....

Why Won't the Supernova Explode? | Science Mission Directorate

And back to the theory that they just really don't know what a supernova is.... and so the belief in a standard candle has shown to be anything but standard....


You seem to be confusing the use of Cepheids as standard candles to measure distances inside the Milky Way and the distances of comparatively nearby galaxies and galaxy clusters with the use of redshift as an observational parameter of very remote objects. So far as I understand it, in cosmology, redshift is used more as a measure of look-back time than of distance, and the redshift-magnitude diagram is used as a test of theoretical cosmological models. At the distances at which Cepheids can be used as standard candles (up to about 30 Mpc), the length contraction and time dilation resulting from the recession velocity are insignificant (a factor of about 5×10^-5, if I have calculated it correctly).

I'm not confusing anything, but perhaps you are....


Accelerating expansion of the universe - Wikipedia

"The accelerated expansion was discovered during 1998, by two independent projects, the Supernova Cosmology Project and the High-Z Supernova Search Team, which both used distant type Ia supernovae to measure the acceleration.[5][6][7] The idea was that as type 1a supernovae have almost the same intrinsic brightness (a standard candle), and since objects that are further away appear dimmer, we can use the observed brightness of these supernovae to measure the distance to them."

So as seen from above it was based upon belief that supernova followed certain rules and were standard candles. New discoveries show they break those rules all the time and are not the standard candles believed....
 
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Astrophile

Active Member
I'm not confusing anything, but perhaps you are....


Accelerating expansion of the universe - Wikipedia

"The accelerated expansion was discovered during 1998, by two independent projects, the Supernova Cosmology Project and the High-Z Supernova Search Team, which both used distant type Ia supernovae to measure the acceleration.[5][6][7] The idea was that as type 1a supernovae have almost the same intrinsic brightness (a standard candle), and since objects that are further away appear dimmer, we can use the observed brightness of these supernovae to measure the distance to them."

So as seen from above it was based upon belief that supernova followed certain rules and were standard candles. New discoveries show they break those rules all the time and are not the standard candles believed....

First, I must apologise for an error in the calculation at the end of the previous post.

You seem to be confusing the use of Cepheids as standard candles to measure distances inside the Milky Way and the distances of comparatively nearby galaxies and galaxy clusters with the use of redshift as an observational parameter of very remote objects. So far as I understand it, in cosmology, redshift is used more as a measure of look-back time than of distance, and the redshift-magnitude diagram is used as a test of theoretical cosmological models. At the distances at which Cepheids can be used as standard candles (up to about 30 Mpc), the length contraction and time dilation resulting from the recession velocity are insignificant (a factor of about 5×10^-5, if I have calculated it correctly).

The actual amount of the time dilation for the maximum distance at which Cepheids can be used as standard candles is about 2.6×10^-5.
 

Astrophile

Active Member
Agreed, but in the meantime they will use those supernova as standard candles....

Despite the conflicting data on supernovea....

From bigger than theoretically posible...

'Champagne Supernova' breaks astronomical rules | CBC News

"A massive supernova, bigger than previously believed possible, could have astronomers rethinking how stars explode and even how far away stars and galaxies are."

Another theory not mentioned is simply that they don't actually understand anything about supernova...

To wondering if they are even what they thought they were.

https://gizmodo.com/a-famous-supernovas-mysteries-are-still-unraveling-hund-1818816208

To defying that standard scenario over and over....

‘Crazy’ Supernova Looks Like a New Kind of Star Death | Quanta Magazine

And back to theory they don't really understand what supernova actually are, but will apply bandaids to stop the hemorrhaging....

To those that just won't die.....

Astronomers find bizarre 'zombie supernova' that just won't die

""This supernova breaks everything we thought we knew about how they work,""

And still their models all fail and have always failed....

Why Won't the Supernova Explode? | Science Mission Directorate

And back to the theory that they just really don't know what a supernova is.... and so the belief in a standard candle has shown to be anything but standard....




I'm not confusing anything, but perhaps you are....


Accelerating expansion of the universe - Wikipedia

"The accelerated expansion was discovered during 1998, by two independent projects, the Supernova Cosmology Project and the High-Z Supernova Search Team, which both used distant type Ia supernovae to measure the acceleration.[5][6][7] The idea was that as type 1a supernovae have almost the same intrinsic brightness (a standard candle), and since objects that are further away appear dimmer, we can use the observed brightness of these supernovae to measure the distance to them."

So as seen from above it was based upon belief that supernova followed certain rules and were standard candles. New discoveries show they break those rules all the time and are not the standard candles believed....

There is too much in this post for me to answer it now. I will try to compose a proper answer tomorrow.
 

Justatruthseeker

Active Member
First, I must apologise for an error in the calculation at the end of the previous post.



The actual amount of the time dilation for the maximum distance at which Cepheids can be used as standard candles is about 2.6×10^-5.
But those supernova are not obeying the rules laid down for them.

But 0.0000026 light years sounds about right...... Or in our solar system......
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
But those supernova are not obeying the rules laid down for them.

But 0.0000026 light years sounds about right...... Or in our solar system......

You misunderstood what he wrote. That factor was the *change* from normal time. The difference is 2.6*10^-5.
 

Justatruthseeker

Active Member
You misunderstood what he wrote. That factor was the *change* from normal time. The difference is 2.6*10^-5.
Based on standard candles that have been disobeying all the rules for theory about supernova and are not really standard anything????

But that would be in the galaxy or nearby galaxies, where expansion does not exist.....

"the use of Cepheids as standard candles to measure distances inside the Milky Way and the distances of comparatively nearby galaxies and galaxy clusters"

But those calculations also refuse to take into account that from another far galaxy, it would be us receding at fractions of c due to expansion of space. Expansion simply increases the velocity of the Galaxy through space, it does not increase the distance between objects in the galaxy which are all moving with the expansion.... Hence the calculations are only relative to us, and do not take into account the change in time that expansion has caused, because all those local galaxies are moving in relative motion with us, but also being accelerated with the expansion....

The twin sees no difference relative to another spaceship moving in relative motion with him, because all are affected. Both people on both ships would still swear their clocks are not slowing and point to the other ship as proof, all the while their clocks continue to slow....

This is basically the argument. That because the ship moving with the other rocket ship is affected at the same rate, then there must be no time change, or minuscule..... Yet we know both ships are similarly affected..... But comparing one to the other no change or very little would be detected.... It is a bait and switch.....

Bait you with the fact little or no change occurs relative to each other, while switching it to this argument and ignoring both are affected drastically due to their velocity, just not in relation to each other....
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Based on standard candles that have been disobeying all the rules for theory about supernova and are not really standard anything????

But that would be in the galaxy or nearby galaxies, where expansion does not exist.....

"the use of Cepheids as standard candles to measure distances inside the Milky Way and the distances of comparatively nearby galaxies and galaxy cluster"

Suppose that Cepheids are non-standard because they change by 1% (which is an over-estimate). How much does that affect the distance measurements?

But those calculations also refuse to take into account that from another far galaxy, it would be us receding at fractions of c due to expansion of space. Expansion simply increases the velocity of the Galaxy through space, it does not increase the distance between objects in the galaxy which are all moving with the expansion.... Hence the calculations are only relative to us, and do not take into account the change in time that expansion has caused, because all those local galaxies are moving in relative motion with us, but also being accelerated with the expansion....

No, it does NOT increase the velocity of a galaxy through space. It is the expansion of space itself. The galaxies are (close to) motionless in the frame of average expansion.

When dealing with Cephieds, the distances are small enough that any time dilation is irrelevant. it is only when going to distances correlated to supernova brightness that this is a relevant consideration.

Now, you claim that supernovas are not a valid standard candle. But once again, what is the variance? How much does that variance affect the actual distance measurements?

The twin sees no difference relative to another spaceship moving in relative motion with him, because all are affected. Both people on both ships would still swear their clocks are not slowing and point to the other ship as proof, all the while their clocks continue to slow....

Slow for whom? This is a crucial point: the clocks slow for anyone in motion with respect to the clocks. There is no standard phrame from which you can say all clocks are slowing.

This is basically the argument. That because the ship moving with the other rocket ship is affected at the same rate, then there must be no time change, or minuscule..... Yet we know both ships are similarly affected..... But comparing one to the other no change or very little would be detected.... It is a bait and switch.....

Why would there be 'no time change'? This isn't a matter of 'both ships being similarly affected' since there is no absolute frame to say this from. Each ship sees the clocks of the other as slower. This is for any two ships that are moving with re each other.

Saying a ship is moving without saying what it is moving respect to is meaningless. Literally meaningless.

Bait you with the fact little or no change occurs relative to each other, while switching it to this argument and ignoring both are affected drastically, just not in relation to each other....

Why are you saying there is little or no change with respect to the other? That is precisely wrong. BOTH see the other as slower than themselves. Neither side is 'affected' in comparison to some absolute frame because *there is no absolute frame*.
 

Justatruthseeker

Active Member
Suppose that Cepheids are non-standard because they change by 1% (which is an over-estimate). How much does that affect the distance measurements?

Once again: "the use of Cepheids as standard candles to measure distances inside the Milky Way and the distances of comparatively nearby galaxies and galaxy clusters"

You keep trying the bait and switch. Two things in relative motion with each other see no change between each other or very little. This is why Einstein figured out that when a system K moves in relative motion with system K1, the laws of physics are the same for both systems. They are not moving at greatly varying velocities relative to one another, but both are moving with great velocity together......



No, it does NOT increase the velocity of a galaxy through space. It is the expansion of space itself. The galaxies are (close to) motionless in the frame of average expansion.

Accelerating expansion of the universe - Wikipedia

"The accelerating expansion of the universe is the observation that the expansion of the universe is such that the velocity at which a distant galaxy is receding from the observer is continuously increasing with time."

Even your experts do not agree with your interpretation... They are stationary with respect to the expansion, not that they have no velocity that is increasing. The expansion is increasing at an accelerating rate which cause their velocity to increase at an accelerating rate, just not with respect to the expansion itself.....

When dealing with Cephieds, the distances are small enough that any time dilation is irrelevant. it is only when going to distances correlated to supernova brightness that this is a relevant consideration.
Yes, those supernova that are not obeying any of the rules theory says they should???? Those supernova that are moving in relative motion with you?

Do you believe clocks on airplanes slow? Do you believe two airplanes flying side by side at the same relative velocity would see each others clocks slow? If you do, you would be wrong. They would each see the others clock tick at exactly the same rate as theirs since they were moving at the same relative velocity....

ALL GPS satellites have the same calculation for time dilation, because they are all moving at about the same relative motion with one another. They do not see each of the other satellites clocks as slow, just clocks on earth because they are moving at a different velocity than earth clocks..... If satellite A saw satellite B's clocks as slow, then after adjusting for time dilation satellite A would still see satellites B's clocks as slow since both have been adjusted at the same rate. Both see each other ticking at the same rate before adjustment and after adjustment, because both tick at the same rate due to their equal velocities....

Now, you claim that supernovas are not a valid standard candle. But once again, what is the variance? How much does that variance affect the actual distance measurements?
Irrelevant since they are within our local cluster and moving with relative motion to this frame......


Slow for whom? This is a crucial point: the clocks slow for anyone in motion with respect to the clocks. There is no standard phrame from which you can say all clocks are slowing.
Sure there is, just as you claim the universe expanded from an original hot dense point. They claim to be able to detect pour galaxies speed through space relative to the CMB due to the dipole. Because why? Because the expansion started from a small dense point in space.....


Why would there be 'no time change'? This isn't a matter of 'both ships being similarly affected' since there is no absolute frame to say this from. Each ship sees the clocks of the other as slower. This is for any two ships that are moving with re each other.
No they don't. The ships would see a frame not moving at their velocity as slower. Anything moving in relative motion with them (each ship) would see no change in the other ship...

Saying a ship is moving without saying what it is moving respect to is meaningless. Literally meaningless.
It doesn't matter what it is moving with respect to. Increases in velocity cause clocks to slow regardless if another observer is around to measure that change or even if no other object exists in the entire universe........


Why are you saying there is little or no change with respect to the other? That is precisely wrong. BOTH see the other as slower than themselves. Neither side is 'affected' in comparison to some absolute frame because *there is no absolute frame*.

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Both would see the stationary twins clocks slow. Both would see each others clocks tick the same rate since they are moving at the same velocity..... You got no idea how time dilation works, this is abundantly clear....

They share the same frame of reference since they are co-moving together....

"Special relativity indicates that, for an observer in an inertial frame of reference, a clock that is moving relative to him will be measured to tick slower than a clock that is at rest in his frame of reference"

But let's get down to the nitty gritty shall we? Is the stationary frame in motion????? I'll give you a hint "stationary"....

So the stationary twins clocks do not slow at all, do they.... Only the twin in motions clocks slow. Hence Einsteins use of a stationary and moving twin to show it was changes in velocity that caused clocks to slow. Now we agree that the twin in motion "believes" the stationary twins clocks slow. He is totally wrong, proven by the fact when he returns it was his clocks which slowed, not the stationary twins clocks. The stationary twins clocks were never affected because of the other twins motion. The other twin simply can not perceive other frames correctly because of his motion. There is no paradox, just the simple fact that once in motion you can not perceive other frames correctly unless they are set in motion from your frame, and then only relative to your frame.... The only paradox that exists is the fact that you all have convinced yourself the stationary twin's clocks slow, and totally ignored he is stationary and so his clocks remained unaffected. that's the paradox....

Two ships moving at the same velocity would NOT see the other ships clocks tick slower, Both clocks on both ships are equally affected by time dilation due to their equal velocity. They would both slow the same amount..... Only in frames not moving in relative motion with respect to them (the stationary twin), would they see a "believed" slowing of clocks.
Neither ship can see any change in the others clock, because both clocks slow equally, unlike the stationary twin's clocks which didn't slow at all.....

The small variation between the speed of each galaxy is why the value is different, but each galaxy is affected equally because "the velocity at which a distant galaxy is receding from the observer is continuously increasing with time."

And it wouldn't matter if another observer existed in the universe.... your clocks would still slow due to your increasing velocity..... You would simply have nothing to compare it to and so would have no theory of time dilation because you would never know your own clocks slow....
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Once again: "the use of Cepheids as standard candles to measure distances inside the Milky Way and the distances of comparatively nearby galaxies and galaxy clusters"

You keep trying the bait and switch. Two things in relative motion with each other see no change between each other or very little. This is why Einstein figured out that when a system K moves in relative motion with system K1, the laws of physics are the same for both systems. They are not moving at greatly varying velocities relative to one another, but both are moving with great velocity together......

Yes, the laws of physics are the same for each. But they *do* see things very differently. There *is* a change in going from one system to the next in the particulars of the decription (including things like distances and durartions)

Accelerating expansion of the universe - Wikipedia

"The accelerating expansion of the universe is the observation that the expansion of the universe is such that the velocity at which a distant galaxy is receding from the observer is continuously increasing with time."

Even your experts do not agree with your interpretation... They are stationary with respect to the expansion, not that they have no velocity that is increasing. The expansion is increasing at an accelerating rate which cause their velocity to increase at an accelerating rate, just not with respect to the expansion itself.....

The rate of expansion is increasing. That is the acceleration. We also interpret that expansion as a relative velocity even though both are at rest in their own comoving frames.


Yes, those supernova that are not obeying any of the rules theory says they should???? Those supernova that are moving in relative motion with you?
And those in the local cluster. The variance in properties is small enough not to affect the distance estimates much.

Do you believe clocks on airplanes slow? Do you believe two airplanes flying side by side at the same relative velocity would see each others clocks slow? If you do, you would be wrong. They would each see the others clock tick at exactly the same rate as theirs since they were moving at the same relative velocity....

If they are movig at the same speed and in the same direction, then they are in the same reference frame. So neither airplane would see the other's clocks as slower. But both would see the clocks on the Earth as slower. And the Earth would see both clocks on the airplanes as slower.

Now, suppose one plane is going one direction and the other is going the opposite direction. is there a time dilation between the two planes? How about between each plane and the Earth? How about between the Earth and the planes?

ALL GPS satellites have the same calculation for time dilation, because they are all moving at about the same relative motion with one another. They do not see each of the other satellites clocks as slow, just clocks on earth because they are moving at a different velocity than earth clocks..... If satellite A saw satellite B's clocks as slow, then after adjusting for time dilation satellite A would still see satellites B's clocks as slow since both have been adjusted at the same rate. Both see each other ticking at the same rate before adjustment and after adjustment, because both tick at the same rate due to their equal velocities....

The relative velocities of the GPS satellites is very small.


Irrelevant since they are within our local cluster and moving with relative motion to this frame......

OK, how much do the different properties affect the estimates that would be calculated from them?

Sure there is, just as you claim the universe expanded from an original hot dense point. They claim to be able to detect pour galaxies speed through space relative to the CMB due to the dipole. Because why? Because the expansion started from a small dense point in space.....

NOOOO. Not a point *in space*. ALL points *of space* were close together. The motion isn't 'through space'. it is an expansion *of space*.

No they don't. The ships would see a frame not moving at their velocity as slower. Anything moving in relative motion with them (each ship) would see no change in the other ship...

To be in relative motion with something means NOT having the save direction and speed of motion.

It doesn't matter what it is moving with respect to. Increases in velocity cause clocks to slow regardless if another observer is around to measure that change or even if no other object exists in the entire universe........

The clocks are not going slower in any absolute sense. It is *always* from the perspective of a different observer.

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Both would see the stationary twins clocks slow. Both would see each others clocks tick the same rate since they are moving at the same velocity..... You got no idea how time dilation works, this is abundantly clear....

THERE IS NO SUCH THINGS AS A STATIONARY CLOCK. There are only clocks moving at zero velocity with respect to each other.

OK, here's a scenario. Sextuplets. Two (A and B) stay on Earth. Two (C and D go one direction at 99.9% of c in separate spaceships. The last two (E and F) go the opposite direction from Earth at 99.9% of c. What do each observe about the clocks of the others?

First, A and B see their clocks as going the same rate. Similarly, C and D see their clocks as going the same rate, and E and F see their clocks as going the same rate.

But, C,D,E,and F all see the clocks on the Earth as going slower (by a factor of about 22). A and B see all the rest of the clocks going slower by a factor of 22.

But, C and D *both* see the clocks of E and F as going slower by a factor of of about 1000.

They share the same frame of reference since they are co-moving together....

Not if they are going in opposite directions, they aren't.

"Special relativity indicates that, for an observer in an inertial frame of reference, a clock that is moving relative to him will be measured to tick slower than a clock that is at rest in his frame of reference"

But let's get down to the nitty gritty shall we? Is the stationary frame in motion????? I'll give you a hint "stationary"....

In motion with respect to which frame? It is at rest with respect to itself and in motion with respect to other frames.

Let's give an example. Suppose we have a spaceship going past the Earth at 99.99% of c. Someone in that spaceship sees themseves as at rest. For them, that is a stationary frame. The Earth is moving past them at 99.99% of c.

So the stationary twins clocks do not slow at all, do they.... Only the twin in motions clocks slow. Hence Einsteins use of a stationary and moving twin to show it was changes in velocity that caused clocks to slow. Now we agree that the twin in motion "believes" the stationary twins clocks slow. He is totally wrong, proven by the fact when he returns it was his clocks which slowed, not the stationary twins clocks. The stationary twins clocks were never affected because of the other twins motion. The other twin simply can not perceive other frames correctly because of his motion. There is no paradox, just the simple fact that once in motion you can not perceive other frames correctly unless they are set in motion from your frame, and then only relative to your frame.... The only paradox that exists is the fact that you all have convinced yourself the stationary twin's clocks slow, and totally ignored he is stationary and so his clocks remained unaffected. that's the paradox....

No, that is NOT the resolution of the paradox. It is not being unable to perceive the other frame. There is no such thing as an absolutely stationary frame! That is the whole point of SR!

For a twin *that returns*, there has to be an acceleration at some point, not simply uniform motion. The twin that experiences that acceleration (and the resulting force) is the one that ages less. If there was never any acceleration, both twins would have equally valid descriptions.

Two ships moving at the same velocity would NOT see the other ships clocks tick slower, Both clocks on both ships are equally affected by time dilation due to their equal velocity. They would both slow the same amount..... Only in frames not moving in relative motion with respect to them (the stationary twin), would they see a "believed" slowing of clocks.
Neither ship can see any change in the others clock, because both clocks slow equally, unlike the stationary twin's clocks which didn't slow at all.....

What if the two are moving in opposite directions? Do they see any time dilation between them?

The small variation between the speed of each galaxy is why the value is different, but each galaxy is affected equally because "the velocity at which a distant galaxy is receding from the observer is continuously increasing with time."

And it wouldn't matter if another observer existed in the universe.... your clocks would still slow due to your increasing velocity..... You would simply have nothing to compare it to and so would have no theory of time dilation because you would never know your own clocks slow....

Velocity with respect to what frame?
 

Justatruthseeker

Active Member
Yes, the laws of physics are the same for each. But they *do* see things very differently. There *is* a change in going from one system to the next in the particulars of the decription (including things like distances and durartions)
ONLY if they are not traveling at the same relative velocity..... Then such changes are miniscule. I believe the calculation was 0.0000026.....


The rate of expansion is increasing. That is the acceleration. We also interpret that expansion as a relative velocity even though both are at rest in their own comoving frames.
That's a cop-out Polymath and you know it... The twin is also at rest in his own co-moving frame, yet his clocks slow regardless if he can observe that change from within his own frame.... He can't, because he continues to call longer duration ticks of time seconds....


And those in the local cluster. The variance in properties is small enough not to affect the distance estimates much.
Agreed, because they are moving at the same relative velocity as we are.... Unlike the entire local clusters velocity through space due to expansion at fractions of c.... You can no more see that from within your co-moving frame, than the twin could see his clocks change as they changed right in front of his eyes.....


If they are movig at the same speed and in the same direction, then they are in the same reference frame. So neither airplane would see the other's clocks as slower. But both would see the clocks on the Earth as slower. And the Earth would see both clocks on the airplanes as slower.
And yet you were just arguing against that with the spaceships.....

Now, suppose one plane is going one direction and the other is going the opposite direction. is there a time dilation between the two planes? How about between each plane and the Earth? How about between the Earth and the planes?
Doesn't matter as long as they are both going the same velocity. The only problem would be in measuring differently situated clocks at a distance. That's why we measure light as a two way measurement because no one has yet figured out how to assure that clocks at far different locations are in sync.....


The relative velocities of the GPS satellites is very small.
Because they are moving with about the same relative velocity as us..... Now accelerate the entire local cluster to fractions of c......



OK, how much do the different properties affect the estimates that would be calculated from them?
it's not their differences we are concerned with. They are also accelerating and increasing velocity due to the expansion of space. The fact that their motion relative to us is small is irrelevant....


NOOOO. Not a point *in space*. ALL points *of space* were close together. The motion isn't 'through space'. it is an expansion *of space*.
A boat on a river moving with the river and not under power sees itself as stationary to the river (spacetime). Yet it still gains energy imparted to it by the river.....


To be in relative motion with something means NOT having the save direction and speed of motion.
No, to be in relative motion with something means having the same constant approximate velocity..... The velocities only need be constant. Direction is irrelevant.


The clocks are not going slower in any absolute sense. It is *always* from the perspective of a different observer.
They are absolutely going slower. How many tests with clocks aboard airplanes that no longer ticked the same rate does it take to convince you that time dilation is a fact and has nothing to do with the point of the observer, but changes in velocity???????


THERE IS NO SUCH THINGS AS A STATIONARY CLOCK. There are only clocks moving at zero velocity with respect to each other.
Einstein had no problem with it, go argue your point with him....

OK, here's a scenario. Sextuplets. Two (A and B) stay on Earth. Two (C and D go one direction at 99.9% of c in separate spaceships. The last two (E and F) go the opposite direction from Earth at 99.9% of c. What do each observe about the clocks of the others?

First, A and B see their clocks as going the same rate. Similarly, C and D see their clocks as going the same rate, and E and F see their clocks as going the same rate.
And only A and B is correct.....

But, C,D,E,and F all see the clocks on the Earth as going slower (by a factor of about 22). A and B see all the rest of the clocks going slower by a factor of 22.
And only A and B is correct......

But, C and D *both* see the clocks of E and F as going slower by a factor of of about 1000.

We have already established that C, D, E and F can no longer perceive the passing of time in other frames correctly.....

And when they return C and D and E and F will be exactly the same age and all 4 will be younger than A and B because time dilation is real and whether each compares clocks during the trip and comes to the wrong conclusion that A and B's clocks slowed.... is irrelevant to the fact that only their's will have slowed and proven that only A and B were correct in their perceptions because that is the frame all were set in motion from....


Not if they are going in opposite directions, they aren't.
Direction is irrelevant, only velocity matters.... The Hafele–Keating experiment already proved this...... If there are time dilation effects then they are not moving at the same velocity.....


In motion with respect to which frame? It is at rest with respect to itself and in motion with respect to other frames.
That's what the twin said too, and yet his clocks still slowed.....

Let's give an example. Suppose we have a spaceship going past the Earth at 99.99% of c. Someone in that spaceship sees themseves as at rest. For them, that is a stationary frame. The Earth is moving past them at 99.99% of c.
If the spaceship at any time accelerated, they would just be unable to perceive things correctly is all. We have already established that just because you think you are stationary and your clocks don't slow, does not mean you are correct in your perceptions.....


No, that is NOT the resolution of the paradox. It is not being unable to perceive the other frame. There is no such thing as an absolutely stationary frame! That is the whole point of SR!
No, the whole point of Einsteins thought experiment was to show that velocity caused clocks to slow. That is why he used a stationary frame. It doesn't matter if the earth is in motion and then the rocket is launched from earth. The person on board will not perceive the passage of time for those on earth correctly. HE WILL BE WRONG that the earth clcoks have slowed. When he returns only his clocks will have slowed relative to the rate the earth clocks ticked due to it's motion.....

For a twin *that returns*, there has to be an acceleration at some point, not simply uniform motion. The twin that experiences that acceleration (and the resulting force) is the one that ages less. If there was never any acceleration, both twins would have equally valid descriptions.
Agreed. So stop ignoring our galaxies acceleration from the expansion of space..... I'm not saying you can detect it, any more than the twin could detect the changes to his clock. But YOU KNOW what changes in velocity cause and so have no excuse.....


What if the two are moving in opposite directions? Do they see any time dilation between them?
Wouldn't matter if they did. Both would be wrong because both would think they were stationary and the motion - hence time dilation - was all in the other frame...... When most likely it is due to BOTH frames..... Not one.....


Velocity with respect to what frame?
Doesn't matter, pick any far galaxy that is affected by expansion. Then Relativity demands that you must also consider yourself the one to be moving at that increasing velocity since you can not tell which is actually in motion.....
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
They are absolutely going slower. How many tests with clocks aboard airplanes that no longer ticked the same rate does it take to convince you that time dilation is a fact and has nothing to do with the point of the observer, but changes in velocity???????

No, they are NOT 'absolutely' going slower. They are going slower *as seen by someone in a different frame*.

Einstein had no problem with it, go argue your point with him....

Sorry, but it is clear you don't grasp what Einstein was saying.


And only A and B is correct.....


And only A and B is correct......



We have already established that C, D, E and F can no longer perceive the passing of time in other frames correctly.....

NOOO! The *whole point* of special relativity is that ALL of these fraes are *equally* correct! There is no absolute reference frame! There is no way to say one frame is stattttttt or moving *except* by refering to another frame.

And when they return C and D and E and F will be exactly the same age and all 4 will be younger than A and B because time dilation is real and whether each compares clocks during the trip and comes to the wrong conclusion that A and B's clocks slowed.... is irrelevant to the fact that only their's will have slowed and proven that only A and B were correct in their perceptions because that is the frame all were set in motion from....

They can only return if they accelerate. If they maintain uniform motion to stay in an inertial frame, there is no way to say which frame is 'correct' and which is not. In fact, ALL are equally correct.

Direction is irrelevant, only velocity matters.... The Hafele–Keating experiment already proved this...... If there are time dilation effects then they are not moving at the same velocity.....

You seem to be confused by the term 'relative motion'. It doesn't mean what you seem to think it does.

So, I am always at rest relative to myself. If I am in a car going 50 mph relative to (in the frame of) the Earth, then the Earth is going at 50 mph in the other direction in my frame. A car going past be at 60 mph relative to the Earth has a *relative velocity* of 10 mph in my frame (assuming we are going int he same direction*.

To be in *relative* motion simply means they are not going at the same speed and/or in the same direction. If they are ot in relative motion, they are relatively at rest. But even if A and B are relatively at rest, they might be in motion relative to someone else, C.

That's what the twin said too, and yet his clocks still slowed.....


If the spaceship at any time accelerated, they would just be unable to perceive things correctly is all. We have already established that just because you think you are stationary and your clocks don't slow, does not mean you are correct in your perceptions.....

It isn't a matter of 'correct' or not. There is no absolute 'correct' in these matters. It is all one frame's view compared to a different frame's view. Every frame has an equally valid, equally 'correct' view. They all differ, though, because they are moving with respect to each other.

No, the whole point of Einsteins thought experiment was to show that velocity caused clocks to slow. That is why he used a stationary frame. It doesn't matter if the earth is in motion and then the rocket is launched from earth. The person on board will not perceive the passage of time for those on earth correctly. HE WILL BE WRONG that the earth clcoks have slowed. When he returns only his clocks will have slowed relative to the rate the earth clocks ticked due to it's motion.....

No, he will NOT be wrong! He can compute the proper time as seen by the other twin and that will give the correct age of that twin.

Agreed. So stop ignoring our galaxies acceleration from the expansion of space..... I'm not saying you can detect it, any more than the twin could detect the changes to his clock. But YOU KNOW what changes in velocity cause and so have no excuse.....

Let's finish with special relativity before going into general relativity.
 

Justatruthseeker

Active Member
No, they are NOT 'absolutely' going slower. They are going slower *as seen by someone in a different frame*.
So if you started in the other frame, then they are ticking at a slower rate than they were.... So they are ABSOLUTELY going slower than they were.... Demonstrated empirically by clocks in airplanes which slowed during their trip. Perception from another frame is irrelevant. That the person in the frame continues to call longer ticks of time seconds will never change the FACT that their clocks tick slower as their velocity increases.....


Sorry, but it is clear you don't grasp what Einstein was saying.
I grasp it just fine. What part of the twin in motion clock slowing versus the stay at home twin who's clock did not slow did you fail to grasp.... Therefore Einstein deduced that acceleration had the same affect as gravity on clocks.....



NOOO! The *whole point* of special relativity is that ALL of these fraes are *equally* correct! There is no absolute reference frame! There is no way to say one frame is stattttttt or moving *except* by refering to another frame.
They are all equally correct because they no longer have the same zero points, as they no longer have the same length of a second or length of a meter...... It's your inability to understand why longer ticks of time still calculate the same value for c that leads you to the belief that the time duration in all frames is equal.....


They can only return if they accelerate. If they maintain uniform motion to stay in an inertial frame, there is no way to say which frame is 'correct' and which is not. In fact, ALL are equally correct.
Unless you believe objects just magically happened to be in motion, they accelerated to get to their current velocity.... All are equally correct in their own frame because their zero points have shifted. They are not starting their measurements from the same location on the energy scale, nor are their ticks of their clock equal to another frames second, nor are their rulers equal to that other frames rulers. But the shift of their zero points compensated exactly for their change in velocity.

This is why you will find no answer for WHY c remains c in every frame regardless of velocity.... They don't know, and expect you to just accept it is a law of nature with no explanation....


You seem to be confused by the term 'relative motion'. It doesn't mean what you seem to think it does.
It means exactly what I think it does.

Relative Motion

"The laws of physics which apply when you are at rest on the earth also apply when you are in any reference frame which is moving at a constant velocity with respect to the earth."

Except as we have already established there is no absolute frame and the earth is not at rest (stationary).....


So, I am always at rest relative to myself. If I am in a car going 50 mph relative to (in the frame of) the Earth, then the Earth is going at 50 mph in the other direction in my frame. A car going past be at 60 mph relative to the Earth has a *relative velocity* of 10 mph in my frame (assuming we are going int he same direction*.
You were never at rest. You just thought you were. It goes along with all your other incorrect perceptions of time because of your motion.....

To be in *relative* motion simply means they are not going at the same speed and/or in the same direction. If they are ot in relative motion, they are relatively at rest. But even if A and B are relatively at rest, they might be in motion relative to someone else, C.
No, it simply means the speed is constant, direction is irrelevant. Doesn't matter if it is the same speed or faster or slower, just that it is constant.

Relative Motion

"The laws of physics which apply when you are at rest on the earth also apply when you are in any reference frame which is moving at a constant velocity with respect to the earth."


It isn't a matter of 'correct' or not. There is no absolute 'correct' in these matters. It is all one frame's view compared to a different frame's view. Every frame has an equally valid, equally 'correct' view. They all differ, though, because they are moving with respect to each other.
because none of them share the same zero points or lengths of meters or tick duration's of clocks..... But until you understand why c always remains c despite different duration ticks of clocks (zero points have shifted) you will always be confused.....


No, he will NOT be wrong! He can compute the proper time as seen by the other twin and that will give the correct age of that twin.
No he can't. According to him that twin aged slower... So in fact he did NOT compute the correct time, nor did he arrive at the correct answer to the age of the other twin. Who you trying to fool, yourself????

And as such is an axiom that will hold true regardless of frames.

Once in motion you can not perceive other frames correctly unless that frame is set in motion from your frame. And then only relative to you.

Hence the stationary twin can indeed correctly calculate the twin in motions age as being younger, but the twin in motion can not correctly calculate the stationary twins age, as he incorrectly perceived that twin as younger....


Let's finish with special relativity before going into general relativity.
What would it matter? You still think the twin in motion can compute the correct age of the stationary twin when he thinks that twin is younger when in fact he is. He couldn't compute anything correctly.....
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
No he can't. According to him that twin aged slower... So in fact he did NOT compute the correct time, nor did he arrive at the correct answer to the age of the other twin. Who you trying to fool, yourself????

OK, let's take two twins. One, twin A, is 'at rest'. The other, twin B, moves at 60% of c for a distance of 6 light years (from the frame of twin A), turns around and comes back to twin A at 60% of c. I choose this speed for the numbers to come out nice.

From the perspective of twin A: the 6 light years at 60% of c takes 10 years. The return trip also takes 10 years. So twin A has aged 20 years. On the other hand, the proper time going 6 light years in 10 years is sqrt(10^2 -6^20=8 years. The return trip also has a proper time of 8 years. So twin B has aged 16 years.

From the perspective of twin B: The outward trip and the return trip both take 8 years, for a total amount of aging of 16 years. So twin B ages 16 years. But, using the Lorentz transformation, in the outgoing frame, twin A has gone a distance of
x'=(0-.6*20)*1.25=15 light years with a duration for doing so of t'=(0+20)*1.25=25 years, for a proper time of sqrt(25^2 -15^2)=20 years, so twin A aged 20 years. A similar calculation can be done from the frame of the return trip.

Alternatively, when twin B is at the turn-around point, he knows he has to change to a different frame in order to 'catch up' with twin A, who is 'now' .6*8=4.8 light years away and moving at a speed of 60% of c away. At this point, twin B thinks that twin A has aged sqrt(8^2 -4.8^2)=6.4 years. To catch up, twin B has to add, relativisticly, the speed of twin A to the speed at which he wants to catch up (also 60% of c), which gives a speed of (.6+.6)/(1+.6*.6)=.882=88.2% of c.This gives a new dilation factor of 2.122.

In this new 'catch up frame', it takes 8 years to catch up, with twin A coming back at twin B at the speed of 88.2% of c. But, in the return frame, again using Lorentz transformations, that distance of 4.8 light years is both 4.8**2.122=10.1857 light years away *and* about 4.8*.882*2.122=8.98 years in the past. So, in the return frame, twin A moves 10.1857 light years in 8+8.98=16.98 years, for a proper time of sqrt(16.98^2 -10.1856^2)=13.6 years. Which, when added to the 6.4 already accounted for, means twin A ages a total of 20 years.

The point is that you cannot do a simple minded calculation based on just time dilation. You have to use the full Lorentz transformation (which encompasses both time dilation and length contraction) to do the correct calculation. You also have to stay in *one* frame for the whole calculation, this means doing the whole calculation in either the outgoing frame or the returning frame. OR, you can switch frames but use a Lorentz transformation to do so.

And as such is an axiom that will hold true regardless of frames.

Once in motion you can not perceive other frames correctly unless that frame is set in motion from your frame. And then only relative to you.

Hence the stationary twin can indeed correctly calculate the twin in motions age as being younger, but the twin in motion can not correctly calculate the stationary twins age, as he incorrectly perceived that twin as younger....

There is no such thing as an absolutely stationary frame! This is the whole point to special relativity! You can do ALL calculations in *any* frame and come up with the correct answers. You have to use the full Lorentz transformations to do so and you have to do the calculations from a single frame, but any frame is equally valid.

What would it matter? You still think the twin in motion can compute the correct age of the stationary twin when he thinks that twin is younger when in fact he is. He couldn't compute anything correctly.....

Yes, twin B *can*, calculate the age of twin A correctly in any inertial frame. I showed above how to do this. You cannot change frames in the calculation unless you take proper care, but do the Lorentz transformations properly, you will get correct answers no matter what frame you use. THAT is the point of saying that all laws of physics are the same in every frame.
 
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ecco

Veteran Member
Hence the stationary twin can indeed correctly calculate the twin in motions age as being younger, but the twin in motion can not correctly calculate the stationary twins age, as he incorrectly perceived that twin as younger....
Fascinating discussing.

But, since both twins are stationary to themselves and in motion as observed by the other, why can't both twins make the exact same calculations about the other?
 

Sky Rivers

Active Member
Ah, 'tis evidence indeed. Terrible and worthless evidence, but evidence none the less.

What is really amusing though is the presumption that if science can be shown to be wrong in some of its assertions then by default the Bible has to be right in its.

.

.

Science is just a tool of inquiry in my opinion and scientists can be wrong. The claim that Earth is 4.5 billion plus years old is just that, a claim. Is there evidence? A theory couldn't exist if there wasn't, so yes, there is evidence. Is there evidence to the contrary? Yes but the scientific consensus doesn't accept it as reason to abandon their theory on the age of the Earth.
 

Sky Rivers

Active Member
May it be that the nail found within the rock coul be millions of years old, and that when God say he created earth and universe in 7 days, the days are not in human days but in as of god? He might have a different time where he is if you think of dimensions. it culd be that Gods ay is many years in human days. right?
Maybe but I think that's "out there" type thinking. You area relying on a lot of unproven theories for this to even be possible, let alone probable.
 
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