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Evidence of reincarnation? I think not.

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I quite often hear from people who believe in reincarnation that they have "memories" of past lives, sometimes in dreams, or in vivid visions in their heads, or revealed through regressive hypnosis.

I take no stand on whether reincarnation actually exists. Maybe it does and maybe it doesn't.

But this I will say for certain: those evidences prove absolutely nothing. How do I know? Because I have those experiences, and they cannot possibly all be true, because the time periods overlap. Let me give just a couple of examples:

1. I once had a series of recurring dreams that I was a Jewish man in an upstairs room, wearing spectacles and reading. The first thing I heard was dogs barking. The sound of glass shattering. Boots, boots on the stairs. Pounding on my door. The door explodes inward with a deafening crash that I can still hear today. A lot of very painful things happened next that I prefer not to share. It is one of the most terrifying dreams I ever had. I would wake up, go back to sleep, and find myself back in the same dream. This went on for days. It was only years later that it clicked for me that this was a dream about Kristallnacht.

2. I also have had many dreams, both sleeping and awake, of being a thin man, an author, at a table outside a Paris cafe. The tweed suit, turtleneck sweater, and beret I'm wearing indicate the 1930's. I compulsively smoke cigarettes and drink gin or whisky. I think about the meaninglessness of my existence. My mentality is defined by disillusionment. I cannot tell you how disturbing this was when I would wake up, or how dark it felt. I'm quite certain these images were inspired by Sartre, whose novels I read as a young adult.

Since both dreams happen in the thirties, they cannot possibly both be memories of past lives. it doesn't matter than in both cases it is extremely vivid, that I can even smell the humidity or the food, or feel the breeze on my face. It's simply impossible that these are past lives.

Moving to my next point. Using hypnosis for regression, either into past events of this life or into so-called past lives, is absolutely notorious for creating false memories. The individual tends to see whatever they think the therapist wants to hear, and then they assume that these visions are actual memories.

We had a big Satanic scare in the 90s, where everyone thought Satanic covens were kidnapping children, molesting them, and sacrificing them. All sorts of people were saying they had seen these things. But when the FBI investigated extensively, they found there was no truth at all to it. Some had false memories either due to hypnosis or due to leading interrogations by police and others. Others were lying for attention or due to mental problems. A few were outright hallucinating. So we had 100s of eyewitnesses to something that never happened at all.

Next point. Stop and consider for a moment how many people "remember" they are Julius Caesar or Joan of Arc. They cannot all have been the same people in the past. And isn't it curious that these "memories" are always of very famous people in history. At least most of my dreams of the past are of insignificant people, like a black slave girl running through the field, or an ordinary woman in a Puritan village picking out cloth for a dress. I think my Sartre dream is the only one with a recognizable person from history.

So no. For all the above reasons, vividly "remembering" past lives is not evidence of reincarnation.
 

GoodAttention

Well-Known Member
1. I once had a series of recurring dreams that I was a Jewish man in an upstairs room, wearing spectacles and reading. The first thing I heard was dogs barking. The sound of glass shattering. Boots, boots on the stairs. Pounding on my door. The door explodes inward with a deafening crash that I can still hear today. A lot of very painful things happened next that I prefer not to share. It is one of the most terrifying dreams I ever had. I would wake up, go back to sleep, and find myself back in the same dream. This went on for days. It was only years later that it clicked for me that this was a dream about Kristallnacht.

2. I also have had many dreams, both sleeping and awake, of being a thin man, an author, at a table outside a Paris cafe. The tweed suit, turtleneck sweater, and beret I'm wearing indicate the 1930's. I compulsively smoke cigarettes and drink gin or whisky. I think about the meaninglessness of my existence. My mentality is defined by disillusionment. I cannot tell you how disturbing this was when I would wake up, or how dark it felt. I'm quite certain these images were inspired by Sartre, whose novels I read as a young adult.

Since both dreams happen in the thirties, they cannot possibly both be memories of past lives. it doesn't matter than in both cases it is extremely vivid, that I can even smell the humidity or the food, or feel the breeze on my face. It's simply impossible that these are past lives.
The is suggestion some experiences can influence subsequent generations. For example "mice trained to fear a specific smell passed on their trained aversion to their descendants, which were then extremely sensitive and fearful of the same smell, even though they had never encountered it, nor been trained to fear it.". Research has also concluded The researchers "the experiences of a parent, even before conceiving, markedly influence both structure and function in the nervous system of subsequent generations".

The dreams could be a "collective memory" of the trauma of that time, and not from a single chain of "souls" or past lives.


Next point. Stop and consider for a moment how many people "remember" they are Julius Caesar or Joan of Arc. They cannot all have been the same people in the past. And isn't it curious that these "memories" are always of very famous people in history. At least most of my dreams of the past are of insignificant people, like a black slave girl running through the field, or an ordinary woman in a Puritan village picking out cloth for a dress. I think my Sartre dream is the only one with a recognizable person from history.

So no. For all the above reasons, vividly "remembering" past lives is not evidence of reincarnation.
I agree, although "remembering" past lives could be evidence of past lives. Not necessarily of your own, and perhaps not of the person you are dreaming about either. Whilst I agree everyone can't be "remembering" they are Julius Ceaser, I do believe many are remembering those people who were around him, seeing Caeser first hand, and being directly involved in his life to help him accomplish what he set out to do.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
Hypnosis is a minefield of confabulation. Claims of past-life recollections gained though it should be treated with scepticism. The more compelling phenomenon in my opinion concerns young children who claim to remember past-lives spontaneously without adult input. I haven't dived into the subject that deeply myself but researchers such as Ian Stevenson and Jim Tucker claim to have found cases where young children gave verifiable information concerning people who had died prior to said children's births. By information, I mean details such as names and recollection of specific events.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Hypnosis is a minefield of confabulation. Claims of past-life recollections gained though it should be treated with scepticism. The more compelling phenomenon in my opinion concerns young children who claim to remember past-lives spontaneously without adult input. I haven't dived into the subject that deeply myself but researchers such as Ian Stevenson and Jim Tucker claim to have found cases where young children gave verifiable information concerning people who had died prior to said children's births. By information, I mean details such as names and recollection of specific events.
I dont take much stock in it. First and foremost if the childs memory was that good then there will be a lot of other things they would be able to do like having the ability speak an entire language right off the bat as soon as four months old.

The fact that they can't until they're taught should tell you something about reincarnation and memory recollection.

If they can't remember a former language they certainly can't have any memories of other things as well.

It's why I think these children were coached for the fame and attention it brings.

Those so-called 'experiments' or 'studies' by Stevenson and Tucker are hardly what you would call science.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
Gilgul is a reincarnation concept in Kabalah, the mystical sect of Judaism.


Gilgul/Gilgul neshamot/Gilgulei Ha Neshamot (Heb. גלגול הנשמות‎, Plural: גלגולים‎ Gilgulim) is a concept of reincarnation in Kabbalistic esoteric mysticism. In Hebrew, the word gilgul means "cycle" or "wheel" and neshamot is the plural for "souls." Souls are seen to cycle through lives or incarnations, being attached to different human bodies over time. Which body they associate with depends on their particular task in the physical world, spiritual levels of the bodies of predecessors and so on. The concept relates to the wider processes of history in Kabbalah, involving cosmic Tikkun (Messianic rectification), and the historical dynamic of ascending Lights and descending Vessels from generation to generation.

The Druze is an Abrahamic monotheistic religion that have belief in reincarnation as part of its theological structure.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
I have those experiences,

What you wrote is not comparable to the accounts which are available, convincing, and researched by credentialed academic researchers. In the past, when I have debated this here, the skeptics simply denied the account saying they were lying and the researcher was lying, and everything was a lie. They buried their head in the sand.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
I dont take much stock in it. First and foremost if the childs memory was that good then there will be a lot of other things they would be able to do like having the ability speak an entire language right off the bat as soon as four months old.
I wouldn't expect to see that. No one claims these kids have unfettered access to their previous [claimed] personalities. They claim to remember a few key details such as the names of family members, key events and often the manner of death.

The fact that they can't until they're taught should tell you something about reincarnation and memory recollection.

If they can't remember a former language they certainly can't have any memories of other things as well.

It's why I think these children were coached for the fame and attention it brings.
I think you're setting an impossible standard in order to justify an unconsidered rejection of the research. It is in itself meaningful if kids are producing veridical information that could not have learned by prosaic means.

Those so-called 'experiments' or 'studies' by Stevenson and Tucker are hardly what you would call science.
Study into this kind of thing may not fit into the materialist paradigm assumed by many scientists, but that doesn't mean the research isn't scientific.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We had a big Satanic scare in the 90s, where everyone thought Satanic covens were kidnapping children, molesting them, and sacrificing them.
Human trafficking occurs to kids in a way that can be alarmingly higher than what everyone thinks. Have you done real research into this issue from all sides? For example, have you heard the side of Native Americans?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The problem with human trafficking, it can be over-estimated severely or under-estimated severely, but I've heard from someone who's job is to investigate and bust human traffickers that child trafficking makes more money then drugs now. If this is the case, it's a pandemic. But I don't know.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
What you wrote is not comparable to the accounts which are available, convincing, and researched by credentialed academic researchers. In the past, when I have debated this here, the skeptics simply denied the account saying they were lying and the researcher was lying, and everything was a lie. They buried their head in the sand.
There is a difference between "by credentialed academic researchers" and "by accepted scientific methods". There simply are too few cases to establish repeatability. At most, we have a phenomenon that is extremely rare, and not enough data to confirm or reject any hypothesis about its occurrence.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
What you wrote is not comparable to the accounts which are available, convincing, and researched by credentialed academic researchers.

I agree. I also believe that reincarnation is possible, and I explain why in the post below.


In the past, when I have debated this here, the skeptics simply denied the account saying they were lying and the researcher was lying, and everything was a lie. They buried their head in the sand.

This is one reason why I decided never to debate or argue with skeptics about my beliefs relating to any kind of supernatural/paranormal phenomenon.
 

Redneck Mystic

Active Member
Consider in the Gospels, Jesus gave sight to a man who was born blind, and then:

John 9:1-5 His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi (Teacher), who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?” Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but it was so that the works of God might be displayed and illustrated in him.

Jesus did not tell his disciples their question was wrong, bu that there was a different reason. How could the man have sinened before he was born, if not in a previous life?

Consider also hidden in plain view in the Gospels:

Matthew 17:
10 The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”
11 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.
 

GoodAttention

Well-Known Member
Consider in the Gospels, Jesus gave sight to a man who was born blind, and then:

John 9:1-5 His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi (Teacher), who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?” Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but it was so that the works of God might be displayed and illustrated in him.

Jesus did not tell his disciples their question was wrong, bu that there was a different reason. How could the man have sinened before he was born, if not in a previous life?
Is this verse used to defend the notion of original sin?

To be born man is not because of a failure of enlightenment, but because of the presence of sin. It is the logical destruction of samsara, allowing all souls to be separate and unconnected before one is born. The soul is not seen as pure, but as deficient in spirit, and a part of man that can be completed.

Being born blind is the work of God unknownn, emphasizing the opposite to the "known" conclusion that such a condition is a failure of enlightenment. By doing so, it is then illustrated that whilst his body is afflicted more than others, his soul is equally deficient in spirit and in need of salvation.
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Consider in the Gospels, Jesus gave sight to a man who was born blind, and then:

John 9:1-5 His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi (Teacher), who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?” Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but it was so that the works of God might be displayed and illustrated in him.

Jesus did not tell his disciples their question was wrong, bu that there was a different reason. How could the man have sinened before he was born, if not in a previous life?

Consider also hidden in plain view in the Gospels:

Matthew 17:
10 The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”
11 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.
And how else can true measure be given by a loving God? It is a scientific, as well as Biblical statement, that neither matter, the physical, nor energy, the life force, can be destroyed, but only reconfigured. If our souls are our true essence in the image of God, our subconscious collective, then our soul living again within different configurations of body and mind to reap the rewards of previous good, and pay the last copper in penalty of the bad, makes scriptural sense and should even be a logical view for humankind evolutionary progression.

Think of how the story of Job ends. He was rewarded in abundance and given back with increase all that had been taken. Doesn't it appear that this was most probable to have occurred in his next life?
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
There is a difference between "by credentialed academic researchers" and "by accepted scientific methods". There simply are too few cases to establish repeatability. At most, we have a phenomenon that is extremely rare, and not enough data to confirm or reject any hypothesis about its occurrence.
Exactly. If reincarnation was to be true then one would expect this phenomena to be commonplace. It just isn't, and limited to rare alleged cases with sketchy methodologies as far as verification is concerned.

If one wants a real synopsis on 'reincarnation' the closest so far would be this article in Scientific American which I found to be an amazing read.


I could find no science journal material with Stevenson and Taylor, that to my knowledge hasn't ever been submitted for proper peer review by their colleagues.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I quite often hear from people who believe in reincarnation that they have "memories" of past lives, sometimes in dreams, or in vivid visions in their heads, or revealed through regressive hypnosis.

I take no stand on whether reincarnation actually exists. Maybe it does and maybe it doesn't.

But this I will say for certain: those evidences prove absolutely nothing. How do I know? Because I have those experiences, and they cannot possibly all be true, because the time periods overlap. Let me give just a couple of examples:

1. I once had a series of recurring dreams that I was a Jewish man in an upstairs room, wearing spectacles and reading. The first thing I heard was dogs barking. The sound of glass shattering. Boots, boots on the stairs. Pounding on my door. The door explodes inward with a deafening crash that I can still hear today. A lot of very painful things happened next that I prefer not to share. It is one of the most terrifying dreams I ever had. I would wake up, go back to sleep, and find myself back in the same dream. This went on for days. It was only years later that it clicked for me that this was a dream about Kristallnacht.

2. I also have had many dreams, both sleeping and awake, of being a thin man, an author, at a table outside a Paris cafe. The tweed suit, turtleneck sweater, and beret I'm wearing indicate the 1930's. I compulsively smoke cigarettes and drink gin or whisky. I think about the meaninglessness of my existence. My mentality is defined by disillusionment. I cannot tell you how disturbing this was when I would wake up, or how dark it felt. I'm quite certain these images were inspired by Sartre, whose novels I read as a young adult.

Since both dreams happen in the thirties, they cannot possibly both be memories of past lives. it doesn't matter than in both cases it is extremely vivid, that I can even smell the humidity or the food, or feel the breeze on my face. It's simply impossible that these are past lives.

Moving to my next point. Using hypnosis for regression, either into past events of this life or into so-called past lives, is absolutely notorious for creating false memories. The individual tends to see whatever they think the therapist wants to hear, and then they assume that these visions are actual memories.

We had a big Satanic scare in the 90s, where everyone thought Satanic covens were kidnapping children, molesting them, and sacrificing them. All sorts of people were saying they had seen these things. But when the FBI investigated extensively, they found there was no truth at all to it. Some had false memories either due to hypnosis or due to leading interrogations by police and others. Others were lying for attention or due to mental problems. A few were outright hallucinating. So we had 100s of eyewitnesses to something that never happened at all.

Next point. Stop and consider for a moment how many people "remember" they are Julius Caesar or Joan of Arc. They cannot all have been the same people in the past. And isn't it curious that these "memories" are always of very famous people in history. At least most of my dreams of the past are of insignificant people, like a black slave girl running through the field, or an ordinary woman in a Puritan village picking out cloth for a dress. I think my Sartre dream is the only one with a recognizable person from history.

So no. For all the above reasons, vividly "remembering" past lives is not evidence of reincarnation.

How about memories from your current past? Do you accept that these are all actual events from your current life? Science says you probably shouldn't. Each time you recall an event it gets, restore into a different memory which can be altered by your current thoughts/feelings.

So if our current life memories aren't as reliable as we think, so much more for so call, past life memories.

I also have memories of having lived other lives. However I'd also what more proof before putting much faith into them. If I could verify a historical location or event or knowledge of a time I wouldn't normally have. Unfortunately, no such luck so I suspect they could just be creations of my subconscious mind regardless of how real they feel.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I also do not see any evidence in favor of reincarnation. Without the constraints of consciousness, the mind has very unusual power to create ideas and solve problems, sometimes.

On the other hand I do not think that overlapping reincarnation stories are evidence against reincarnation. Reincarnation comes in different flavors, and a time-independent flavor resolves that conundrum.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
There simply are too few cases to establish repeatability

All it takes is a few good examples, to demonstrate the occurrence exists as an observable phenomena.

Repeatability is needed to show the mechanism of effect.

There is a difference between "by credentialed academic researchers" and "by accepted scientific methods".

^^^ denial by default ^^^

Right on schedule

the skeptics simply denied ... They buried their head in the sand.
 
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