Evidence that Jesus was the Messiah

[Ben Avraham]

Who says that the Satan is an evil God? You impute that when it has never been claimed. The talmud, through quotes I have already presented, posits the existence of a force under God's control, manifested as an angelic servant, who tempts man. Therefore, the concept is more than just the idea, but a being on some heavenly level. All of this has already been proven through evidence I presented. Reread post 149.

All your ideas expressed in this post of yours above are akin to Hellenism which Christianity copied from Greek Mythology. Good & Evil. Every thing that HaShem has done is good if you read about the Creation account in Genesis. "And God saw that it was good." Christians teach that evil was created by the god of this world aka Satan. That's what I cannot accept, an evil god to compute with HaShem. The Lord is of an absolute Oneness and, more than one there is no other. (Isaiah 46:5)

 

[Tumah]

All your ideas expressed in this post of yours above are akin to Hellenism which Christianity copied from Greek Mythology. Good & Evil. Every thing that HaShem has done is good if you read about the Creation account in Genesis. "And God saw that it was good." Christians teach that evil was created by the god of this world aka Satan. That's what I cannot accept, an evil god to compute with HaShem. The Lord is of an absolute Oneness and, more than one there is no other. (Isaiah 46:5)

What you cannot accept is Jewish belief. You've been demonstrating that frequently.

Reish Lakish said: He is the Satan, he is the Evil Inclination, he is the Angel of Death.
He is the Satan as it says, "And the Satan went out from before G-d (Job 2:7)
He is the Evil Inclination as it says there, "only bad the whole day (Gen. 6:5)" and it says here, "only to him do not send your hand (Job 1:12)"
He is the Angel of Death as it says, "However, preserve his soul (Job. 2:6)". We see from here that it was in his jurisdiction [to take it].
-Talmud

...He said to him "The Satan - on the Day of Atonement he doesn't have permission to antagonize." From where [does he know this]? Rami the son of Hama said, "'The Satan' has the Gematriya of 364. For three hundred sixty four days, the Satan has permission to antagonize. On the Day of Atonement, the Satan doesn't have permission to antagonize."
-Talmud

...Rabbi Simon the son of Gamliel said, "The Satan didn't intend to kill Moses our Rabbi, but rather that baby. As it says, 'You are a bridegroom of blood for me (Ex. 4:25)'. Go out and see who was called the bridegroom. Meaning to say, the baby."
-Talmud

Rav Levi said, "Satan and Peninah intended [their actions for the sake] of heaven. Satan when he saw that G-d was leaning towards Job said, "G-d forbid, G-d will forget His love for Abraham!"...
-Talmud

...And anyone who makes the blessing immediately upon washing, the Satan doesn't prosecute that meal. And anyone who prays [the Amidah] immediately upon [making the blessing of] Redemption, the Satan doesn't prosecute that day.
-Talmud
​

I have plenty more if you need.

It would be one thing if you presented yourself as a regular ignorant secular Jew. Its quite another when you start bandying around beliefs that have no basis in Jewish literature and shout to all and sundry your belief in the NT. Just call yourself a Christian, or a neo-Christian or a proto-Christian or an Ebionite Christian or whatever. Alternatively go and learn something about Judaism. What's the point in calling your religion Judaism when your beliefs are anything but?

 

[rosends]

All your ideas expressed in this post of yours above are akin to Hellenism which Christianity copied from Greek Mythology.

Actually, the ideas expressed are Jewish and I gave the Jewish sources for them. You dismiss them without dealing with the. The rest of what you write is completely irrelevant. The creation account, God's statement that certain things were (very) good (not all things...look at day 2), and the fact that evil is not external to God are not related to whether a Satan exists as a servant of God.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Actually, the ideas expressed are Jewish and I gave the Jewish sources for them. You dismiss them without dealing with the. The rest of what you write is completely irrelevant. The creation account, God's statement that certain things were (very) good (not all things...look at day 2), and the fact that evil is not external to God are not related to whether a Satan exists as a servant of God.

Evil is external to God. HaShem has nothing to do with evil except for the fact that He created man. However, HaShem created man perfect but, because He granted us with the attribute of Freewill, man chose to cause evil to happen and evil proliferated in the world. (Ecclesiastes 7:29) Nothing to do with a so-called god of evil called Satan to compute with HaShem the control of the universe. It is all in man. Sorry, if I have rained on your parade.

 

[Ben Avraham]

What you cannot accept is Jewish belief. You've been demonstrating that frequently.

Wrong! What I cannot accept is Christian belief copied from Hellenism.

Reish Lakish said: He is the Satan, he is the Evil Inclination, he is the Angel of Death. He is the Satan as it says, "And the Satan went out from before G-d (Job 2:7) He is the Evil Inclination as it says there, "only bad the whole day (Gen. 6:5)" and it says here, "only to him do not send your hand (Job 1:12)" He is the Angel of Death as it says, "However, preserve his soul (Job. 2:6)". We see from here that it was in his jurisdiction [to take it]. -Talmud

Yes, Satan is the evil inclination. That's what I mean by a concept to illustrate the ill-use in man of his Freewill and his role in the proliferation of evil on earth.

...He said to him "The Satan - on the Day of Atonement he doesn't have permission to antagonize." From where [does he know this]? Rami the son of Hama said, "'The Satan' has the Gematriya of 364. For three hundred sixty four days, the Satan has permission to antagonize. On the Day of Atonement, the Satan doesn't have permission to antagonize." -Talmud

Nowhere in the world this text above could serve to produce spiritual growth. It sounds like science fiction to me. A concept dangerously personified rather to promote ignorance.

...Rabbi Simon the son of Gamliel said, "The Satan didn't intend to kill Moses our Rabbi, but rather that baby. As it says, 'You are a bridegroom of blood for me (Ex. 4:25)'. Go out and see who was called the bridegroom. Meaning to say, the baby." -Talmud

The words of Zipporah are explained in the following verse: "Because of the circumcision". (Ex. 4:26) Her son had not yet been incorporated into Israel through the circumcision on the 8th day of birth and, Zipporah was probably not aware that he had to be circumcised. Something was happening, probably in a dream of Zippora that Moses was in danger of death for that matter and, Zipporah circumcised her own son.

Rav Levi said, "Satan and Peninah intended [their actions for the sake] of heaven. Satan when he saw that G-d was leaning towards Job said, "G-d forbid, G-d will forget His love for Abraham!"...-Talmud

It makes no sense to me. When I do not understand something, though I do not spit it out, I won't chew it for the lack of spiritual nutrition; if you understand what I mean.

...And anyone who makes the blessing immediately upon washing, the Satan doesn't prosecute that meal. And anyone who prays [the Amidah] immediately upon [making the blessing of] Redemption, the Satan doesn't prosecute that day. -Talmud

There is nothing to learn from this text for I am not concerned with Satan but with HaShem only.

​

I have plenty more if you need. It would be one thing if you presented yourself as a regular ignorant secular Jew. Its quite another when you start bandying around beliefs that have no basis in Jewish literature and shout to all and sundry your belief in the NT. Just call yourself a Christian, or a neo-Christian or a proto-Christian or an Ebionite Christian or whatever. Alternatively go and learn something about Judaism. What's the point in calling your religion Judaism when your beliefs are anything but?

At least, I do not promote the evil god of pagan literature copied by Christianity. If all Jews had some sort of knowledge of the NT, there would not be so many conversions to Christianity. Look at the thousands of "Jews-for-Jesus". I blame that spiritual catastrophe on the ignorance of them all about the option they have available to their boredom as a result of the "science fiction" to make gods out of concepts.

 

[Tumah]

And -your broken quoting aside @Ben Avraham - here you've demonstrated that your beliefs are not from the Talmud, but from yourself. I assume that because you are Jewish, you think that any belief you come up with must by extension be Jewish. This is false. As are the beliefs that you are putting forth as Jewish.

I don't see that you are as any better than Jews for Jesus. I'm almost 100% sure that if you're not one of them, you're from some other similar group. The same ignorance that you are claiming Jews have that is causing them to follow such groups, you have when it comes to Judaism. You seem to be quite familiar with the NT, but not familiar at all with the Talmud.

 

[rosends]

Evil is external to God. HaShem has nothing to do with evil except for the fact that He created man.

Wait, you mean besides the fact that he created evil, right? Isaiah 45:7

Nothing to do with a so-called god of evil called Satan to compute with HaShem the control of the universe. It is all in man. Sorry, if I have rained on your parade.

Except the only one who has claimed this is you. The idea that Satan is a messenger of God to tempt man doesn't make him a "god of evil" (you are the only one who "so-called" him that). Stop inventing ideas and imputing them on others so you can reject them. You should read what is actually claimed.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Wait, you mean besides the fact that he created evil, right? Isaiah 45:7

Except the only one who has claimed this is you. The idea that Satan is a messenger of God to tempt man doesn't make him a "god of evil" (you are the only one who "so-called" him that). Stop inventing ideas and imputing them on others so you can reject them. You should read what is actually claimed.

I think I have explained that before. The reference in Isaiah is, for instance, HaShem caused the universe to exist with physical laws which, as a result of space and time, light is produced and, with the removal of light, darkness comes at its turn. That's how HaShem is said to form light and darkness. Now, as man is concerned, because man ill-used his Freewill to cause evil, HaShem is said to have created evil because He created man. Had He not created man, he could not be said to have created evil.

 

[Ben Avraham]

And -your broken quoting aside @Ben Avraham - here you've demonstrated that your beliefs are not from the Talmud, but from yourself. I assume that because you are Jewish, you think that any belief you come up with must by extension be Jewish. This is false. As are the beliefs that you are putting forth as Jewish.

I don't see that you are as any better than Jews for Jesus. I'm almost 100% sure that if you're not one of them, you're from some other similar group. The same ignorance that you are claiming Jews have that is causing them to follow such groups, you have when it comes to Judaism. You seem to be quite familiar with the NT, but not familiar at all with the Talmud.

I have never said or meant that my beliefs are from the Talmud, I have indeed read a lot in the Talmud but, I try to avoid it when it contradicts the Tanach. For instance, from using the Talmud, you tried to persuade me that literally, Satan as a being is Jewish. Okay, it is Judaism according to you; not to me. Regarding "Jews-for-Jesus", you say there is no difference between them and myself. It only shows you don't know any thing about their faith.

 

[rosends]

...because man ill-used his Freewill to cause evil, HaShem is said to have created evil because He created man. Had He not created man, he could not be said to have created evil.

and yet that verse doesn't mention the creation of man. By your logic, God can only be said to have created peace because he created man because man exercises his free will to be peaceful. So God created nothing except as it is an expression of man's free will? I think not. The text is clear. Your interpretation is irrelevant.

 

[rosends]

I have never said or meant that my beliefs are from the Talmud, I have indeed read a lot in the Talmud but, I try to avoid it when it contradicts the Tanach. For instance, from using the Talmud, you tried to persuade me that literally, Satan as a being is Jewish. Okay, it is Judaism according to you; not to me. Regarding "Jews-for-Jesus", you say there is no difference between them and myself. It only shows you don't know any thing about their faith.

Right. and since the text says "an eye for an eye" the talmud is contradicting that when it explains that the method is the value of an eye and not a literal eye. But since this is a contradiction of the text, you avoid it. Makes perfect sense.

 

[Tumah]

I have never said or meant that my beliefs are from the Talmud, I have indeed read a lot in the Talmud but, I try to avoid it when it contradicts the Tanach. For instance, from using the Talmud, you tried to persuade me that literally, Satan as a being is Jewish. Okay, it is Judaism according to you; not to me. Regarding "Jews-for-Jesus", you say there is no difference between them and myself. It only shows you don't know any thing about their faith.

This is not Judaism according to me. This is Judaism according to the Talmud. So its simple. You don't believe in the Talmud. Normative Judaism is associated with the Talmud. Karaite Judaism is associated with being against the Talmud. Change your religion to Karaite Judaism. This way no one will associate your views with us and any misinformation can be avoided.

I'm not only comfortable with knowing little about Christianity, I'm happy to know as little as possible about any form of idol worshiping. But they are well-known for masquerading around as Jews while quoting the NT. Just as you have been doing here.

 

[Ben Avraham]

This is not Judaism according to me. This is Judaism according to the Talmud. So its simple. You don't believe in the Talmud. Normative Judaism is associated with the Talmud. Karaite Judaism is associated with being against the Talmud. Change your religion to Karaite Judaism. This way no one will associate your views with us and any misinformation can be avoided.

I'm not only comfortable with knowing little about Christianity, I'm happy to know as little as possible about any form of idol worshiping. But they are well-known for masquerading around as Jews while quoting the NT. Just as you have been doing here.

To believe in Satan as a real being. good of evil is a form of idolatry. You must try never to forget that HaShem is of an absolute Oneness. There is no other god good or evil besides the
Lord Almighty, Creator of the universe.

 

[Tumah]

To believe in Satan as a real being. good of evil is a form of idolatry. You must try never to forget that HaShem is of an absolute Oneness. There is no other god good or evil besides the
Lord Almighty, Creator of the universe.

I notice you still haven't fixed your religious label, yet you still continue to make statements that are at odds with it.

Why do you want to be deceptive? Not everyone here is familiar with what Judaism really teaches and then you go around telling people things that are simply not true from a Jewish point of view. They look at your religion label and then they attribute these views to us. That's not fair, or nice of you. A simple adjustment of your label can correct that and would be more truthful. Why do you lie?

 

[Ben Avraham]

Right. and since the text says "an eye for an eye" the talmud is contradicting that when it explains that the method is the value of an eye and not a literal eye. But since this is a contradiction of the text, you avoid it. Makes perfect sense.

Don't worry! I knew about the "lex talionis" long before I read the Talmud. So, I knew already that the application of the law is not literal but according to the value of the member in the person involved.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I notice you still haven't fixed your religious label, yet you still continue to make statements that are at odds with it.

Why do you want to be deceptive? Not everyone here is familiar with what Judaism really teaches and then you go around telling people things that are simply not true from a Jewish point of view. They look at your religion label and then they attribute these views to us. That's not fair, or nice of you. A simple adjustment of your label can correct that and would be more truthful. Why do you lie?

I think you are looking for something to talk about. What about if I told you that I don't believe in the almost 4000 years old Jewish doctrine of a Messiah to come? I believe in the concept of the collective as the Messiah is concerned. You know, Israel, I mean. I take it from Prophet Habakkuk 3:13 that, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son" said the Lord. Do you still hold unto the illusion of an individual Messiah to come after this post of mine?

 

[Tumah]

I think you are looking for something to talk about. What about if I told you that I don't believe in the almost 4000 years old Jewish doctrine of a Messiah to come? I believe in the concept of the collective as the Messiah is concerned. You know, Israel, I mean. I take it from Prophet Habakkuk 3:13 that, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son" said the Lord. Do you still hold unto the illusion of an individual Messiah to come after this post of mine?

Yes, because my religion is "Judaism", not "Ben Avrahamism".
So let's quit with the red herrings, and see you be a little more honest with your religious labeling.

 

[Ben Avraham]

and yet that verse doesn't mention the creation of man. By your logic, God can only be said to have created peace because he created man because man exercises his free will to be peaceful. So God created nothing except as it is an expression of man's free will? I think not. The text is clear. Your interpretation is irrelevant.

Right! That's why I like to name HaShem as being the Primal Cause. The cause for the whole universe to exist. After He formed man from the dust of the earth, He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7) Then, after the Lord created man and his wife, he blessed them and said to them, "Be fertile and multiply, fill the earth and master it..." Don't tell me that the Lord continued directly creating every thing as if He was creating robots! Of course not!
The commandment had been given for man to continue with the creation. (Genesis 1:28) So, man created evil among many other things.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Yes, because my religion is "Judaism", not "Ben Avrahamism".
So let's quit with the red herrings, and see you be a little more honest with your religious labeling.

Not until you prove to me the individual concept of Messiah. Since before Egypt, they expected an individual Messiah to come and to this day it has never come. When Moses showed up, they thought the Messiah had come and, Moses ended up only by being a Messianic leader to guide the Messiah back to the Promised Land. They could not understand that the Messiah could not be an individual because, the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a people before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

 

[Tumah]

Not until you prove to me the individual concept of Messiah. Since before Egypt, they expected an individual Messiah to come and to this day it has never come. When Moses showed up, they thought the Messiah had come and, Moses ended up only by being a Messianic leader to guide the Messiah back to the Promised Land. They could not understand that the Messiah could not be an individual because, the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a people before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

That's great. So since you continue to make non-Jewish claims (in this case about the Messiah), why not first explain why you refuse to be honest? There'd be no discussion between us, if you'd just change your religious label to a more accurate one. Why do you refuse to do so? Why do you want people to have false impressions about you and about Judaism? What type of person does that? Its an easy change to just add in a few more characters to your religious label. You'd be making all the same claims that you've been doing until now, except now people would understand that your views are actually those of people who only believe in Tanach- which is exactly reflective of what you believe. Why can't you be respectful other others' religions besides your own?