Evidence

[PruePhillip]

Citation needed. What peer reviewed paper made this claim?

Never read any 'peer reviewed' paper, it just crops up often in science articles.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

But god wants people to seek him...

“If you seek him, he will be found by you” (1 Chronicles 28:9). And when he is found, there is great reward. “Whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him” (Hebrews 11:6).

The inquiry was, "What ever gave you the idea that God wants everybody to believe in Him?" So, I provided scriptures that suggested that God wants everyone to believe in him. Of course, I don't believe what the Bible says. In my view, it's chock full of contradictions.

 

[Subduction Zone]

A fine tuned universe will give us the earth, spinning on its axis (gravity, angular momentum etc..) but the earth's tilt needed something more than fine tuning.

No, the tilt hardly appear to be "fine tuned" since it does vary a bit. Please, see if you can find any science based sources that support your claims. You are relying on sources written by people that do not understand the sciences.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Not making Himself verifiable is not hide and seek. God can be found through religion but the entity called God can never be verified to exist.

How come?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Never read any 'peer reviewed' paper, it just crops up often in science articles.

I have never seen it. You might have been misinterpreting a source.

By the way, the angle of attack does not matter. The craters on the Moon actually prove that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What negative actions? I hope you are not referring to the anthropomorphisms in the OT.

Leaving behind nonbelievers for one.

 

[dybmh]

Incredible. As if an omnipotent/omniscient God would ever need an excuse for anything He chooses to do.
NOTHING could be more illogical.

I want to take a risk and attempt to address this. Is it really illogical to say God needs?

Does God need anything? I think so. Why? Because God is more than just omnipotent, God is also complete. In order to be complete, God needs to be engaged in relationships with others. God cannot be complete without filling the role as parent, spouse, monarch, child, adherent, rebel, jailer, prisoner, tycoon, pauper, murderer, etc... The way God achieves this is thru creation of individuals and then sharing their experiences as they happen.

One of these experiences / relationships is God-worshiper. In order to acheive this, in order to be complete, God needs belief, needs congregation, needs ritual, needs clergy, needs liturgy, needs service. Without these things God is not complete.

If God by defintion is complete, then God needs us, needs people, and needs us to do certain things. Conversely, there's a dark side. God also needs criminals, murder, disease, suffering, torture, etc... all in order to satisfy the condition of "complete".

Feel free to laugh at me, and critisize me for this idea. But it answers a lot of questions, and makes each and everything thing that exists ( even the bad stuff ) vitally important to God.

Worship is needed. Kindness is needed. Justice is needed. All of it is needed.

Diversity in gender? needed
Diversity in sexuality? needed
Diversity in belief? needed
Diversity in non-belief? needed

Complete diversity is needed for God to be complete.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It's a good argument, on the surface. Fine tuning gave us our earth - billions of earths get created. What is freakish is the odd things which happen to give us our seasons, loss of giant carnivores etc..

No. At best it is just an argument from ignorance.

 

[PruePhillip]

I am pretty sure that you did. But if you didn't then why would he use such a poor method?

Because if you read the bible, and particularly Christianity, and the messenger is paramount - so too is the rejection of human thinking.
Take the SYMBOL of God's people, God's nation - Jews and Israel: a tiny people in a tiny land, of no great significance, easily dismissed, easily ridiculed. You are asked to accept the lowliness of Christianity - meek, lowly, accepting, turning the other cheek, unrecognized, despised and rejected. That's what these people did (latter Catholics were another matter BTW) So yes, a poor method. Didn't you hear, at least once over Xmas, how there was no place for the Messiah as a babe?

 

[Trailblazer]

What if I do the work and don't come to the conclusion the Abrahamic God is real and Bahaullah is a messenger? Will I still get an A+ for process, like when presenting some essays I presented in college that had a lot to do with ambitions, thoughts, and predictions and was judged on that, or is it more of a "True or False?" test.

I believe that if people do the work and don't come to the conclusion you noted they will get a A for effort.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Because if you read the bible, and particularly Christianity, and the messenger is paramount - so too is the rejection of human thinking.
Take the SYMBOL of God's people, God's nation - Jews and Israel: a tiny people in a tiny land, of no great significance, easily dismissed, easily ridiculed. You are asked to accept the lowliness of Christianity - meek, lowly, accepting, turning the other cheek, unrecognized, despised and rejected. That's what these people did (latter Catholics were another matter BTW) So yes, a poor method. Didn't you hear, at least once over Xmas, how there was no place for the Messiah as a babe?

Unfortunately that work is filled with outright errors, self contradictions, poor morals, the list goes on and on and on. If anything it refutes the idea of a God.

 

[F1fan]

The error here is the number of times people get hit by cars,vs the number of times a giant asteroid hits the earth on the scale of the Yucatan meterorite.
It's not even one in a million, more like one in a thousand billion.

Except the earth has been hit by many asteroids over time. Look at the Tunguska explosion. Look at Meteor Crater in Arizona as another example. Most other impacts have been covered up since our planet is so dynamic. Have doubts? Then look at the moon. Look at all those craters that are visible from impacts by debris. We still see them because the moon is not dynamic. All part of your God's plan?

But that is a side issue, you cited speed, place, and time as being the crucial issue as to why the Yukatan asteroid hit earth so there would be planned effects from an intelligence. This is just the same hindsight fallacy as my example of kids being hit and killed as a plan by an intelligence.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, if what the Messengers say is "obvious" then it should be dead easy to quote them proving that they are messengers of God. Instead what we see are bad excuses for claimed poor behavior of that God.

I did not say that what the Messengers say is obvious. I said that the Messengers are from God is obvious to most people.
God has no behavior, only humans have behavior. God has a will.

 

[Trailblazer]

Am I open to the evidence that Baha'u'llah is the Jewish messiah? I tried to be open to it. I honestly tried. I think the problem I have is there are two competing arguments which undermine each other.

On the one hand, the claim is that Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Jewish requirements to be the Jewish messiah.

When a requirement from scripture is brought which is not fulfilled, perhaps there's a disqualifying factor, the response is "your scripture isn't relaible, it's so old, it's corrupted, how do you even know what's accurate about it"?

This then undermines the original claim. The first claim is depending on accurate scripture in order to prove the messiah status, but, the 2nd claim undermines that.

So how can a person claim to fulfill all the requirements, when those requirements are not *actually* and *accurately* known? They can't.

That means the person making the original claim is not trustworthy. If they don't have accurate sources, they cannot accurately claim fulfillment.

This is exacerbated when one examines the claim that Baha'u'llah possesses all the divine powers that all the other Baha'i claimed manifestations possessed.

If we're talking about Moses, that would be splitting the red sea, turning a staff into a serpent, bringing water from a rock, turning water into blood, etc...

If we're talking about Jesus, that ups the ante significantly. Miraculous healings, raising the dead, and ressurecting himself is what's needed.

Muhammad's miracles are a little less profound, but Baha'u'llah would need to split the moon, perform some miraculous healings, and speak to and understand animals.

Presented with these miraculous signs, the response is similar. "Don't be silly, those are just myth and legend, they go against the laws of nature, and never happened."

That means the original claim isn't *really* that Baha'u'llah has all the same attributes and divine power of the previous ( so called ) manifestations. The *actual* claim is "All your stories about your legendary figures are wrong. They are like me, but the stories about them are false."

So, the person making that original claim about shared divinity, is not trustworthy.

That means that the evidence from the "Person" of Baha'u'llah fails.

That's the proof that he isn't who he said he was. It's not because I'm certain I'm right. It's because the claims made have demonstrable faults.

I tried to set asside all prior biases, and I think I did a good job. But a person cannot claim to be the Jewish messiah per prophecy without accurate scripture. And a person cannot claim to be the same divinity without accurate scripture. And if the scripture is deemed accurate that's a problem too for both claims.

That's the result of my independant, non-biased to the best of my ability, investigation into Baha'u'llah.

I appreciate all your ideas and they make sense but it is a bit too much to cover on this thread. It would be a good topic for a new thread, why you think the evidence for Baha'u'llah being the Messiah fails..

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I want to take a risk and attempt to address this. Is it really illogical to say God needs?

Does God need anything? I think so. Why? Because God is more than just omnipotent, God is also complete. In order to be complete, God needs to be engaged in relationships with others. God cannot be complete without filling the role as parent, spouse, monarch, child, adherent, rebel, jailer, prisoner, tycoon, pauper, murderer, etc... The way God achieves this is thru creation of individuals and then sharing their experiences as they happen.

One of these experiences / relationships is God-worshiper. In order to acheive this, in order to be complete, God needs belief, needs congregation, needs ritual, needs clergy, needs liturgy, needs service. Without these things God is not complete.

If God by defintion is complete, then God needs us, needs people, and needs us to do certain things. Conversely, there's a dark side. God also needs criminals, murder, disease, suffering, torture, etc... all in order to satisfy the condition of "complete".

Feel free to laugh at me, and critisize me for this idea. But it answers a lot of questions, and makes each and everything thing that exists ( even the bad stuff ) vitally important to God.

Worship is needed. Kindness is needed. Justice is needed. All of it is needed.

I know most Christians will disagree with me on this notion but the Bible is very clear that God creates evil. It is written in the Bible as if God admits to creating evil. Isaiah 45:7 states, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." The New King James Version uses the word "calamity" instead of "evil," and the New International Version uses the word "disaster" and not "evil" or "calamity." For the record, Jeremiah 26:13, 1 Chronicles 21:15, and Joel 2:13 coincide with Isaiah 45:7 (NIV), which says, "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things." The Bible also mentions God changing his mind about bringing disasters down on his own people as punishment for their transgressions against him (Jeremiah 26:13, 1 Chronicles 21:15, Joel 2:13). And according to Genesis 6:6-7, God regretted creating not only mankind but also every animal, every creature that creeps on the ground, and the birds of the air. The Bible contains several other verses that mention God's regrets in addition to creating humanity, all the animals, and birds (1 Samuel 15:11; 2 Samuel 24:16; Jeremiah 42:10).

KJV: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Evil:
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked, 2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful, 3. Characterized by or indicating misfortune; ominous.

NIV: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

Disaster:
1. An occurrence causing widespread destruction and distress; a catastrophe; 2. A grave misfortune, and 3. A total failure.

ESV: "I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things."

Calamity: 1. An event that brings terrible loss, lasting distress, or severe affliction; a disaster, 2. Dire distress resulting from loss or tragedy; 3. Any great misfortune or cause of misery; in general, any event or disaster which produces extensive evils, as loss of crops, earthquakes, etc., but also applied to any misfortune which brings great distress on a person; misfortune; distress; adversity.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Thank you for adding to the discussion something novel. Personally I cannot imagine a wealthy persian family omitting education from one of their children. He was born into a Muslim family, was he not? No books? Not a single Qu'ran, nothing? That sounds like neglect. You think his parent's neglected him?

Good questions. In my opinion it requires independent investigation to find the answers to them. It means, I cannot investigate for you or on your behalf, and provide you with result and conclusions. You would have to do it for yourself if you want

 

[F1fan]

I did not say that what the Messengers say is obvious. I said that the Messengers are from God is obvious to most people.

That is because they are told to believe religious stories by their Sunday school teachers, parents, aunts, grandparents, and they do what humans do due to evolution: they conform to social norms and beliefs. They don't think about what they are told, they just believe it. Skilled reasoning is rare, and that is why skilled thinkers can explain why belief in non-factual religious claims and concepts is irrational. Believers just don't know any better.

God has no behavior, only humans have behavior. God has a will.

God isn't known to exist, nor has any attributes that anyone can claim exists or doesn't exist.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I did not say that what the Messengers say is obvious. I said that the Messengers are from God is obvious to most people.
God has no behavior, only humans have behavior. God has a will.

I doubt if they are obvious to most people. Look how small your religion is. Most people are the religion that they are because of where they were born. Reason had nothing to do with their choice.

 

[Trailblazer]

I am sorry, but that does not make sense. That sounds like some serious circular reasoning.

It might be circular, but the Bible is really the only evidence for Christianity.
The Baha'i Faith has better evidence since we have more than the Writings of Baha'u'llah. We also have factual information about His Person and we have the recorded history of His life and His 40-year mission on earth.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

It might be circular, but the Bible is really the only evidence for Christianity.
The Baha'i Faith has better evidence since we have more than the Writings of Baha'u'llah. We also have factual information about His Person and we have the recorded history of His life and His 40-year mission on earth.

To me, to use a computer software analogy, the Baha'i faith is Christianity 2.0 - it fixes some things some critical thinkers might consider bugs, but also introduces brand new ones.