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Evolution and Creationism. Are they really different?

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Technically, they are opposed.

However, believing that the most advanced being in existence -by which all other things and beings consist -would find it wise to directly create every last thing instantaneously does not make sense. Automation allows for more to be done with less effort -and automated variety and survivability would be quite wise and infinitely interesting. Believing that an eternal being did absolutely nothing for eternity -then suddenly popped everything into existence instantaneously also does not make sense.

Similarly, believing that intelligence and design are separate does not make sense.
Design is by intelligence, and intelligence is by design.
The whole of the design of that which exists is the intelligence that caused it to exist -and that which exists is the design of that intelligence.

We believe ourselves to be intelligent beings, but our intelligence is due to our design. We would not say that any one part of us is intelligent, so intelligence is an arrangement of parts. As our parts are arranged, intelligence comes to exist.
We did not design our own intelligence -therefore our intelligence was designed by another intelligence.
Originally, intelligence and design must have increased directly together.
The very beginning of all must have been the most simple state possible.
Where there is design, there is a designer. Where there is a designer, it must be of a certain design. The more capable the designer, the more complex its design -and the more complex are its designs.

Once an intelligence existed by design, and a design by intelligence, the two could then become more apparently separate. Only then could an intelligence produce an environment for and of itself -or others. Before that, the environment of the intelligence would have been its own design alone.

Many individual self-aware intelligent designers within an environment must have been preceded by a single original self-aware intelligent designer responsible for that environment.

If we imagine isolating our intelligence, we are left with a mind separate from a body. It would then be useless. It would not have an environment or an interface with that environment. It would be its own environment. However, it could then imagine an environment and interface with it -and that is logically what it would do. Another logical step would be reproduction.

Of course, our minds are limited in power by their design -and our present inability to change their design to any great degree -but an original mind would not be limited at all. An original mind would have power over its own design and the design of all things.

We consider ourselves intelligent beings as a whole, because our bodies allow us to express our intelligence to an environment. The fact that our bodies are not intelligences themselves does not mean they are not part of an intelligent being. The fact that our environment is not an intelligence itself does not mean it is not part of an intelligent being.
Our environment is moved by an intelligence greater than ourselves -in fact, an intelligence in at least direct proportion to the whole of the environment.
 
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YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
To me both are some sort of belief systems. People simply choose to follow one or another not because they are scientists, theologians or have specific compelling evidence but merely because they are free to choose what they believe in and when they choose, most people mainly follow the thoughts or teachings of others that they think can be trusted (whether right or wrong). In that sense, both Evolution and Creationism are similar. What do you think?
But they are not just belief systems. One actually has a several mountains of data to support the Theory, whereas creationism has little more than faith. Not the same thing, at all.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Evolution is theory that try to explain live in absence of creation but creation is not limited to live, its about every thing in existence. So if I would compare, I would compare Creationism vs the Big Bang not the evolution.
A somewhat valid point, but it makes me wonder why you addressed that point in your OP. :)
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Well, I think to be honest your making a fairly sweeping statement by saying "Soviet Science failed". This doesn't take into account the numerous scientific contriubtions made by Soviet scientists that continue to have an effect on the west.

Whilst he didn't gain acceptence in the Soviet establishment Alexander Freidmann made an important contributions to Cosmology through the Freidmann equations (and became part of the Freidmann-Lemaitre-Robertson-Walker Metric because these individuals worked simultaneously on solutions to Einstein's field equations).

Nor can the West cliam that the contriubtions made on a theoretical level by Alexander Oprain to the concept of primordial soup as part of the process abiogensis to explain the origins of life from inorganic matter, can merely be dismissed because it was confirmed in the west in the Miller-Urey experiment. Whilst Friedmann's arguments aren't in line with most Soviet science, Oparin's is.

Generally, speaking Soviet Science was very successful (but not enough). An argument can be made that was "inspite" of political interference but that is a nauanced view still subject to debate. It is evident that the Scientists could still achieve great strides in their early achievements in the Space Race with the First Satillite (Sputnik), Man in Orbit, Women in Orbit etc. Now, sure- they didn't win the "Space Race" and achieve the both the scientific and symbolic victory of putting a man on the moon (they still got the a lunar rover there though) but that is hardly a "failure" when you look at the evidence.
One may cherry pick scientific achievements that would put Myanmar at the top of the list, on the whole, Soviet science failed to even keep it's people fed . Soviet engineering, on the other hand, is a master of the brute force solution to engineering problems that when coupled to the Soviets willingness to take huge risks and unwillingness to reveal their failures resulted in a few space firsts.
The origin of life is outside the scope of evolution theory, NoorNoor. The origins are not covered by the ToE. That's a separate discipline.
You say the ToE has serious scientific challenges. What are these challenges? Your links in post #27 are propaganda, unsupported, or distortions by religious ideologues.
Most "scientists" challenging the ToE are religious nutters, sellouts to corporate interests, or trained in unrelated disciplines.

How are you defining "fact," Sapiens?
Outside mathematics, aren't facts just well supported probabilities? Is germ theory a fact, or Copernicanism? Aren't these scientific facts also theories?


Evolution is a theory and a fact -- the two aren't incompatible.
It's a definition thing, I try not to use the word "fact" because it is an absolute even when it is inappropriate only at the level of a million places to the right of the decimal point. For al practical purposes we agree.
Sapiens,

Briefly taking a side street relative to Creationism, and you being a scientist, have fossils or any type of remains of the following biblical anomalies shown below ever been found to support Creationism? Especially since these creatures were only created 6000 years ago relative to the chronological order of Jesus back to Adam being approximately 4000 years (Luke 3: 23-38), and hence approximately 2016 years to today?

SATYRS: “But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and Satyrs shall dance there.” (Isaiah 13:21) For the pseudo-christian ignorant, a Satyr is an animal that is half goat, and half man!

FOUR-FOOTED INSECTS: "'All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be regarded as unclean by you.” (Leviticus 11:20)

A COCKATRICE: “Rejoice not thou, whole Palestinians because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.” (Isaiah 14:29) (A Cockatrice is a serpent that is hatched from a cock)

UNICORNS: “And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.” ( Isaiah 34:7)

Has any Christian Paleontologist found any of these factual bible insects, animals, and birds listed herein to really support their bible Creation story? Anyone?
None has ever been seen, they remain mythological.
 
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Briefly taking a side street relative to Creationism, and you being a scientist, have fossils or any type of remains of the following biblical anomalies shown below ever been found to support Creationism? Especially since these creatures were only created 6000 years ago relative to the chronological order of Jesus back to Adam being approximately 4000 years (Luke 3: 23-38), and hence approximately 2016 years to today?

SATYRS: “But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and Satyrs shall dance there.” (Isaiah 13:21) For the pseudo-christian ignorant, a Satyr is an animal that is half goat, and half man!

FOUR-FOOTED INSECTS: "'All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be regarded as unclean by you.” (Leviticus 11:20)

A COCKATRICE: “Rejoice not thou, whole Palestinians because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.” (Isaiah 14:29) (A Cockatrice is a serpent that is hatched from a cock)

UNICORNS: “And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.” ( Isaiah 34:7)

Has any Christian Paleontologist found any of these factual bible insects, animals, and birds listed herein to really support their bible Creation story? Anyone?


Sapiens,

YOUR QUOTE TO THE ABOVE BIBLICAL AXIOMS: "None has ever been seen, they remain mythological."

Well, to say the least, this does not bode well for the Christian Creation narratives, of which they're two of them that contradict each other in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2.
For a Christian to believe in Creation, it would seem that before they force this notion upon anyone else, they should find the remains of the biblical anomalies that were
mentioned above within their inspired word of Yahweh, which would definitely help seal the deal.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Evolution is not a established fact. It is a established theory.
Your ignorance is showing. You might want to bone up on evolution before making any more erroneous pronouncements..:D....................... Or not...:(

And just as an aid for future discussions about the facts of science, Stephen Jay Gould gives us a very good definition of scientific fact.

"In science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent."
. Creationism does not reject science but rejects the specific claim (or belief) that the theory of evolution is a solid scientific fact that successfully explains the origins of live.

Good, because the theories of evolution don't claim anything at all about the origins of life. That it does is one of those boners that constantly pop up among the more ignorant creationism advocates.

The evolution theory encompasses a large body of theories/knowledge. Some of it would have scientific merits but as a whole it's a theory that has serious scientific challenges
You're absolutely right. Most creationists are very serious about their challenges. Trouble is, none of them are worth a tinkers damn.

and can not be scientifically considered as a fact.
Yup, if theories were considered to be fact they'd no longer be theories.

I am not a scientist. Don't take my word for it.
Good advice.

I am only explaining Creationism perspective with respect to evolution and science
More like you're focusing on evolution here, but whatever.


.


 

Jabar

“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
Your ignorance is showing. You might want to bone up on evolution before making any more erroneous pronouncements..:D....................... Or not...:(

And just as an aid for future discussions about the facts of science, Stephen Jay Gould gives us a very good definition of scientific fact.

"In science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent."

Good, because the theories of evolution don't claim anything at all about the origins of life. That it does is one of those boners that constantly pop up among the more ignorant creationism advocates.


You're absolutely right. Most creationists are very serious about their challenges. Trouble is, none of them are worth a tinkers damn.


Yup, if theories were considered to be fact they'd no longer be theories.


Good advice.


More like you're focusing on evolution here, but whatever.


.

Does not matter how some dude defines facts in science. An established fact is more accurate than a theory.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Does not matter how some dude defines facts in science. An established fact is more accurate than a theory.
Well, it really isn't a matter of being more accurate, but more sound and trustworthy. Thing is, the science community as a whole considers evolution to be a fact, and many of its explanations, its theories.

And Stephen Jay Gould, "some dude"! Here is a chronological list of books either written or edited by Stephen Jay Gould, including those published posthumously, after his death in 2002.

1977. Ontogeny and Phylogeny, Cambridge MA: Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, ISBN 0-674-63940-5 online preview
1977. Ever Since Darwin, New York: W. W. Norton, ISBN 978-0-393-06425-4
1980. The Panda's Thumb, New York: W. W. Norton, ISBN 0-393-01380-4
1980. Gould, Stephen Jay (December 1980), The Evolution of Gryphaea, New York: Arno Press, ISBN 0-405-12751-0
1981. The Mismeasure of Man, New York: W. W. Norton, ISBN 978-0-393-31425-0
1983. Hen's Teeth and Horse's Toes, New York: W. W. Norton, ISBN 978-0-393-01716-8
1985. The Flamingo's Smile, New York: W. W. Norton, ISBN 0-393-02228-5
1987. Time's Arrow, Time's Cycle, Cambridge MA: Harvard Univ. Press, ISBN 0-674-89198-8 online preview
1987. An Urchin in the Storm: Essays about Books and Ideas, N.Y.: W. W. Norton, ISBN 0-393-02492-X
1987. (with Rosamond Wolff Purcell) Illuminations: A Bestiary, N.Y.: W. W. Norton, ISBN 0-393-30436-1
1989. Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History, New York: W. W. Norton, ISBN 0-393-02705-8. 347 pp.
1991. Bully for Brontosaurus, New York: W. W. Norton, ISBN 978-0-393-02961-1. 540 pp.
1992. (with Rosamond Wolff Purcell) Finders, Keepers: Eight Collectors, New York: W. W. Norton, ISBN 978-0-393-03054-9
1993. Eight Little Piggies, New York: W. W. Norton, ISBN 0-393-03416-X
1993. The Book of Life. Preface, pp. 6–21. New York: W. W. Norton (S. J. Gould general editor, 10 contributors). ISBN 0-393-05003-3 review citing original publishing date
1995. Dinosaur in a Haystack, New York: Harmony Books, ISBN 0-517-70393-9
1996. Full House: The Spread of Excellence From Plato to Darwin, New York: Harmony Books, ISBN 0-517-70394-7
1997. Questioning the Millennium: A Rationalist's Guide to a Precisely Arbitrary Countdown, New York: Harmony Books, ISBN 0-609-60541-0
1998. Leonardo's Mountain of Clams and the Diet of Worms, N.Y.: Harmony Books, ISBN 0-609-60141-5
1999. Rocks of Ages: Science and Religion in the Fullness of Life, New York: Ballantine Books, ISBN 0-345-43009-3
2000. The Lying Stones of Marrakech, New York: Harmony Books, ISBN 0-609-60142-3
2000. Crossing Over: Where Art and Science Meet, New York: Three Rivers Press, ISBN 0-609-80586-X
2002. The Structure of Evolutionary Theory, Cambridge MA: Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, ISBN 978-0-674-00613-3 online preview
2002. I Have Landed: The End of a Beginning in Natural History, New York: Harmony Books, ISBN 0-609-60143-1
2003. Triumph and Tragedy in Mudville: A Lifelong Passion for Baseball, New York: W. W. Norton, ISBN 0-393-05755-0
2003. The Hedgehog, the Fox, and the Magister's Pox, New York: Harmony Books, ISBN 0-609-60140-7
2006. The Richness of Life: the Essential Stephen Jay Gould, London: Jonathan Cape, ISBN 978-0-09-948867-5 This is an anthology of Gould's writings edited by Paul McGarr and Steven Rose, introduced by Steven Rose.
2007. Punctuated Equilibrium, Cambridge MA: Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, ISBN 0-674-02444-3 Book review
That you seemingly don't recognize the name is very telling.

.
 

Jabar

“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
Well, it really isn't a matter of being more accurate, but more sound and trustworthy. Thing is, the science community as a whole considers evolution to be a fact, and many of its explanations, its theories.

And Stephen Jay Gould, "some dude"! Here is a chronological list of books either written or edited by Stephen Jay Gould, including those published posthumously, after his death in 2002.

1977. Ontogeny and Phylogeny, Cambridge MA: Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, ISBN 0-674-63940-5 online preview
1977. Ever Since Darwin, New York: W. W. Norton, ISBN 978-0-393-06425-4
1980. The Panda's Thumb, New York: W. W. Norton, ISBN 0-393-01380-4
1980. Gould, Stephen Jay (December 1980), The Evolution of Gryphaea, New York: Arno Press, ISBN 0-405-12751-0
1981. The Mismeasure of Man, New York: W. W. Norton, ISBN 978-0-393-31425-0
1983. Hen's Teeth and Horse's Toes, New York: W. W. Norton, ISBN 978-0-393-01716-8
1985. The Flamingo's Smile, New York: W. W. Norton, ISBN 0-393-02228-5
1987. Time's Arrow, Time's Cycle, Cambridge MA: Harvard Univ. Press, ISBN 0-674-89198-8 online preview
1987. An Urchin in the Storm: Essays about Books and Ideas, N.Y.: W. W. Norton, ISBN 0-393-02492-X
1987. (with Rosamond Wolff Purcell) Illuminations: A Bestiary, N.Y.: W. W. Norton, ISBN 0-393-30436-1
1989. Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History, New York: W. W. Norton, ISBN 0-393-02705-8. 347 pp.
1991. Bully for Brontosaurus, New York: W. W. Norton, ISBN 978-0-393-02961-1. 540 pp.
1992. (with Rosamond Wolff Purcell) Finders, Keepers: Eight Collectors, New York: W. W. Norton, ISBN 978-0-393-03054-9
1993. Eight Little Piggies, New York: W. W. Norton, ISBN 0-393-03416-X
1993. The Book of Life. Preface, pp. 6–21. New York: W. W. Norton (S. J. Gould general editor, 10 contributors). ISBN 0-393-05003-3 review citing original publishing date
1995. Dinosaur in a Haystack, New York: Harmony Books, ISBN 0-517-70393-9
1996. Full House: The Spread of Excellence From Plato to Darwin, New York: Harmony Books, ISBN 0-517-70394-7
1997. Questioning the Millennium: A Rationalist's Guide to a Precisely Arbitrary Countdown, New York: Harmony Books, ISBN 0-609-60541-0
1998. Leonardo's Mountain of Clams and the Diet of Worms, N.Y.: Harmony Books, ISBN 0-609-60141-5
1999. Rocks of Ages: Science and Religion in the Fullness of Life, New York: Ballantine Books, ISBN 0-345-43009-3
2000. The Lying Stones of Marrakech, New York: Harmony Books, ISBN 0-609-60142-3
2000. Crossing Over: Where Art and Science Meet, New York: Three Rivers Press, ISBN 0-609-80586-X
2002. The Structure of Evolutionary Theory, Cambridge MA: Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, ISBN 978-0-674-00613-3 online preview
2002. I Have Landed: The End of a Beginning in Natural History, New York: Harmony Books, ISBN 0-609-60143-1
2003. Triumph and Tragedy in Mudville: A Lifelong Passion for Baseball, New York: W. W. Norton, ISBN 0-393-05755-0
2003. The Hedgehog, the Fox, and the Magister's Pox, New York: Harmony Books, ISBN 0-609-60140-7
2006. The Richness of Life: the Essential Stephen Jay Gould, London: Jonathan Cape, ISBN 978-0-09-948867-5 This is an anthology of Gould's writings edited by Paul McGarr and Steven Rose, introduced by Steven Rose.
2007. Punctuated Equilibrium, Cambridge MA: Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, ISBN 0-674-02444-3 Book review
That you seemingly don't recognize the name is very telling.

.
And to be more sound and trustworthy it has to be accurate.
 

NoorNoor

Member
Sapiens, I understand you don’t like “Discovery Institute”, the science teacher is unpublished and James Tour is just a chemist with no background in biology. this typical ad hominem would’t give merit to your case. James Tour was named among "The 50 most Influential Scientists in the World”. I would definitely give some credit to his opinion as a scientist. Hoping for future explanation (that may not happen) doesn’t change the fact that scientific challenges stay with no answer today. You consider 100 or 500 scientist doubting the evolution as small percentage but I definitely consider it as a serious challenge.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
To me both are some sort of belief systems. People simply choose to follow one or another not because they are scientists, theologians or have specific compelling evidence but merely because they are free to choose what they believe in and when they choose, most people mainly follow the thoughts or teachings of others that they think can be trusted (whether right or wrong). In that sense, both Evolution and Creationism are similar. What do you think?


As two beliefs they are certainly closer than they used to be. Creationists always maintained that the gaps, sudden leaps in the fossil record were real, not merely artifacts of an incomplete record.

This used to be dismissed out of hand but is increasingly accepted in 'punctuated equilibrium' etc.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Yes, at least most are. If not, explain how?
Science does not give itself the power to decree what is or is not fact. Its purpose is to obtain reliable, not necessarily complete, information.

Once a theory - particularly one so passionately challenged such as that of evolution - is established, that is as close to fact as science can go.

On the other hand, many everyday "established facts" are actually consensual delusions or otherwise unreliable.

The myth that "the theory of evolution is just that, an unproven theory" is just that, a myth fueled by lack of proper understanding of the concepts and, I would guess, fear of accepting know facts.
 

Jabar

“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
Science does not give itself the power to decree what is or is not fact. Its purpose is to obtain reliable, not necessarily complete, information.

Once a theory - particularly one so passionately challenged such as that of evolution - is established, that is as close to fact as science can go.

On the other hand, many everyday "established facts" are actually consensual delusions or otherwise unreliable.

The myth that "the theory of evolution is just that, an unproven theory" is just that, a myth fueled by lack of proper understanding of the concepts and, I would guess, fear of accepting know facts.
Well it depends on what you mean on evolution. If you say we evolved from Apes then that would not really be accurate. However, any type of evolution should not be regarded as fact. It is a theory. If it were real, there would be substantial evidence. Theories are changed a lot, so to regard it as fact or something close to it is absurd. Wait until we have an ''established fact'' then we will go from there.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Technically, they are opposed.

However, believing that the most advanced being in existence -by which all other things and beings consist -would find it wise to directly create every last thing instantaneously does not make sense. Automation allows for more to be done with less effort -and automated variety and survivability would be quite wise and infinitely interesting. Believing that an eternal being did absolutely nothing for eternity -then suddenly popped everything into existence instantaneously also does not make sense.

Similarly, believing that intelligence and design are separate does not make sense.
Design is by intelligence, and intelligence is by design.
The whole of the design of that which exists is the intelligence that caused it to exist -and that which exists is the design of that intelligence.

We believe ourselves to be intelligent beings, but our intelligence is due to our design. We would not say that any one part of us is intelligent, so intelligence is an arrangement of parts. As our parts are arranged, intelligence comes to exist.
We did not design our own intelligence -therefore our intelligence was designed by another intelligence.
Originally, intelligence and design must have increased directly together.
The very beginning of all must have been the most simple state possible.
Where there is design, there is a designer. Where there is a designer, it must be of a certain design. The more capable the designer, the more complex its design -and the more complex are its designs.

Once an intelligence existed by design, and a design by intelligence, the two could then become more apparently separate. Only then could an intelligence produce an environment for and of itself -or others. Before that, the environment of the intelligence would have been its own design alone.

Many individual self-aware intelligent designers within an environment must have been preceded by a single original self-aware intelligent designer responsible for that environment.

If we imagine isolating our intelligence, we are left with a mind separate from a body. It would then be useless. It would not have an environment or an interface with that environment. It would be its own environment. However, it could then imagine an environment and interface with it -and that is logically what it would do. Another logical step would be reproduction.

Of course, our minds are limited in power by their design -and our present inability to change their design to any great degree -but an original mind would not be limited at all. An original mind would have power over its own design and the design of all things.

We consider ourselves intelligent beings as a whole, because our bodies allow us to express our intelligence to an environment. The fact that our bodies are not intelligences themselves does not mean they are not part of an intelligent being. The fact that our environment is not an intelligence itself does not mean it is not part of an intelligent being.
Our environment is moved by an intelligence greater than ourselves -in fact, an intelligence in at least direct proportion to the whole of the environment.

While creationism and evolution are opposed -because strict creationism does not accept the timeline of evolution, etc., creation and evolution are not themselves opposing ideas.

Evolution obviously happens. That cannot be denied. The extent to which it is responsible for all life forms and changes, however, is not yet known.

It is also not known exactly how the universe and evolution came to exist.

It is apparent that whatever preceded man was capable of producing self-aware intelligent designers -and it is not known to science whether or not man is unique in the universe or beyond.

If we use the term evolution to describe the basis of physical life, then evolution once did not exist. However, in a broader sense, evolution has always existed, and describes any and every change.

Any new state was created by that which preceded it.

In the broad sense, the God of the bible indicates that he does evolve.
Being the "one" by whom all things consist, any change to anything could be described as the evolution of God -even if the change is deliberate.

What is not indicated in the bible is the exact state from which God changed into all that now is -but it would be a state which allowed for all that now is.

Many scoff at the idea of a man in the sky, but God would not be a man in the sky -God would be the sky an everything else -collectively being able to say "I AM" -and there is absolutely no reason to believe that could not be the case.
In fact, it makes perfect sense.
If we believe that evolution in the limited sense can produce intelligent designers now -why would that be different at any point in the broader sense?
I am not actually saying that God evolved -or that he did not -but that God is evolution.
That which preceded all that now is was capable of producing it -and all that now is indicates extreme intelligence -and extreme design capability -and self-awareness -and forethought -and purpose.

We call the Big Bang a singularity because we don't know much about it -we just know that whatever it was produced the universe.

What we do not know is what produced the singularity. Some believe the singularity was the very beginning of everything -that it self-produced the universe for no particular reason, but is seems to me that extremely complex and particular reasoning -forethought, if you will -must have preceded the Big Bang.

Thought necessarily precedes certain things -but evolution of thought does happen -and thought is also evolution/change. Self-awareness must also precede certain things -but, again, selves evolve. The same is true for creativity -or, creative activity. The ability to say "I am, and I will cause this particular thing to come to pass" must precede certain things coming to pass.

It is believed that man evolved from something which was already -or already was certainly to be -extremely complex -but the beginning of evolution -which is creative activity -in the broad sense would have been much more simple.

It is strange to think of God as once being more simple -the most simple state of all things -and that which followed, but that is technically what is indicated in scripture.
The most simple state possible, however, is not indicated.
 
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ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Design is by intelligence, and intelligence is by design.
I do not agree with the second precept. Design as a function of intelligence is given by the definition of design, the same is not true of intelligence. There's no reason to assume that if there is intelligence it must have been designed.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I do not agree with the second precept. Design as a function of intelligence is given by the definition of design, the same is not true of intelligence. There's no reason to assume that if there is intelligence it must have been designed.

If intelligence required a designer thereof, then the first intelligence, if any, necessitates a not intelligent designer.

Ciao

- viole
 

AndromedaRXJ

Active Member
If intelligence required a designer thereof, then the first intelligence, if any, necessitates a not intelligent designer.

Ciao

- viole

Or maybe it's... what's the phrase? Turtles all the way down? As in, the designer was designed by a designer, who was designed by a designer, who was designed by a designer, who was... well you get the idea. lol
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Or maybe it's... what's the phrase? Turtles all the way down? As in, the designer was designed by a designer, who was designed by a designer, who was designed by a designer, who was... well you get the idea. lol

Yes, that is why I wrote "if any" :)

Ciao

- viole
 
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