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Evolution by Jerks

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
This is snip it I found in one of my Word files. I tried looking for the source but was unsuccessful. If you are gonna make a big fuss of the source then perhaps you shouldn't post. For those interested, do you think evolution is an affective club for beating religion? If so why?

Evolution by Jerks

Since the synthetic theory originally arose in response to the collapse of classical Darwinism, where does that leave us today? "Punctuated equilibrium," would be the reply of the average biology teacher or science columnist. This is the famous hypothesis which Gould and Niles Eldredge came up with in the early 70s, when they and other paleontologists began to insist that the gaps in the fossil record be taken seriously. According to this theory, small groups of animals break off from the herd, go off to peripheral locations "at the edge of ecological tolerance," and mutate rapidly into "hopeful monsters" who then replace the old herd. Because the changes occur so quickly, there is no fossil evidence. We were once told that evolution is so slow we can't see it; now we're told that it's too fast to see. Gould and Eldredge admit that there is no direct evidence that evolution occurred in this way. And plenty of scientists don't buy "evolution by jerks," pointing out, among other problems, that it lacks a mechanism. How, for example, did the bat suddenly find itself with a workable sonar? True or not, punctuated equilibrium is really a refutation of Darwin, who said that his theory would break down completely "if it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight variations."

Besides the "punk eek" crowd, there are two other evolutionary camps today. There is the mainstream, which clings to old-fashioned Darwinism because there is no better explanation for the origin of species. For these scientists the engine of species creation is small DNA copying errors, which presumably add up over millions of years to "evolution." These retro-Darwinists explain away the gaps in the fossils and do not seriously address the question of how smooth intermediates between land mammals and whales, or reptiles and birds, could ever have existed.

Then there are scientists who reject Darwin. In fact, opposition to Darwin's theory is more widespread than is generally supposed. It is rejected by most French biologists, for example, including the late Dr. Pierre P. Grasse, president of the French Academy of Sciences, who called Darwinism "a pseudo-science" that is "either in conflict with reality or cannot solve the basic problems." A group of prominent anti-Darwinists produced a technical volume called Beyond Neo-Darwinism in 1984, in which two American biologists, Gareth Nelson and Ron Platnick, wrote, "We believe that Darwinism . . . is, in short, a theory that has been put to the test and found false." Molecular biologist Michael Denton weighed in with Evolution: A Theory in Crisis in 1986, in which he showed that recent developments in molecular biology are at complete variance with Darwinism. And this past year, Behe's Darwin's Black Box has caused a stir by pointing out that Darwinian evolution is biochemically impossible.

Scientists and philosophers who disagree with Darwin who deny that small mutations guided by natural selection can add up to "macro" changes still call themselves "evolutionists" since they recognize that all life forms share basic genetic material and so may be descended from a single ancestor; but they are frank about not being able to explain how this happened. Some speculate that species undergo a "genetic snap" which produces new ones. This would mean that evolution was somehow "pre-programmed" in the DNA. This scenario sounds a lot like St. Augustine's and is, of course, anathema to Darwinists because it points to a Programmer God.

Why, in the face of so much negative evidence, does Darwin's theory maintain its hold over scientists and educators? Mainly because it is an effective club with which to beat religion. Richard Dawkins, Darwin's modern attack dog, is typical when he calls religion a "virus" that "infects people's minds, replicates and spreads." He criticizes scientists who profess a belief in God and points out that the great merit of Darwinism is that it allows one to be "an intellectually fulfilled atheist." Behe nicely dissects Dawkins's "proofs" of Darwin's theory, showing how he makes use of hidden postulates and unwarranted assumptions.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
The problem with "overnight" speciation is survivability. A parent and child must be similar enough to gestate and (often) nurse, and the child must generally be similar enough to a species at large to procreate.

Since we've actually watched speciation occur, I'm not sure that there can be any doubts abou tthe role and rate of error; though I suspect that natural selection serves to make actual changes occur in spurts (why things seem to "respond to their envyronment").
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Victor said:
This is snip it I found in one of my Word files. I tried looking for the source but was unsuccessful. If you are gonna make a big fuss of the source then perhaps you shouldn't post.
On what authority do you deign to tell others what they should or should not do? Certainly not moral authority.

By the way: a source.

Let me guess: you have absolutely no interest in reading Gould/Eldridge on Punctuated Equilibrium - which is fully consonant with evolution. Talk about "Jerks".
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Deut. 10:19 said:
On what authority do you deign to tell others what they should or should not do? Certainly not moral authority.

By the way: a source.

Let me guess: you have absolutely no interest in reading Gould/Eldridge on Punctuated Equilibrium - which is fully consonant with evolution. Talk about "Jerks".
Thanks but I hardly go to catholic.net.
It was already my understanding that Gould/Eldridge were not trying to deviate from orthodox Darwinism. But I was unsure whether Darwin himself stated that evolution would proceed at different rates. But thanks for guessing.

~Victor
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Victor said:
Thanks but I hardly go to catholic.net.
It was already my understanding that Gould/Eldridge were not trying to deviate from orthodox Darwinism. But I was unsure whether Darwin himself stated that evolution would proceed at different rates. But thanks for guessing.
You could read Darwin.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Deut. 10:19 said:
You could read Darwin.
Perhaps I will. I started to back when I was going to school but never got around to continuing. But since your the guru on this, did Darwin state that things would proceed at different rates?

~Victor
 

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
Victor said:
This is snip it I found in one of my Word files. I tried looking for the source but was unsuccessful. If you are gonna make a big fuss of the source then perhaps you shouldn't post. For those interested, do you think evolution is an affective club for beating religion? If so why?
I am curious why so many people equate "disagree with" and "beating upon"?

If I believe differently than you do, am I automatically "beating on" your religion? In that case, all Christians are guilty of beating on Buddhists. Aren't you glad I don't think that way?
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Engyo said:
I am curious why so many people equate "disagree with" and "beating upon"?

If I believe differently than you do, am I automatically "beating on" your religion? In that case, all Christians are guilty of beating on Buddhists. Aren't you glad I don't think that way?
Engyo, I thought the word "religion" was vague enough to state that it wasn't just talking "my religion". And if you can't see the disctiction of "disagreeing" and "beating on" on this forum then what can I say. I don't mind disagreements, but please don't be fooled into thinking that is all that happens.

~Victor
 

Ormiston

Well-Known Member
Victor said:
For those interested, do you think evolution is an affective club for beating religion? If so why?
In my mind, the only one doing the beating is religion with this constant attempt to attach itself to science. Science makes no mention of religion in its processes. Science is a cold tool, effective at only what it was designed to do: model natural processes and give us information. The earth was here long before science and science is simply molded around the material world. Where is there ANY room for religion in this design?
 

Ormiston

Well-Known Member
Victor said:
In the begining...

~Victor
Scientist: In the beginning it appears...according to these numbers and these tests.

Note the difference. "In the beginning God created..." isn't exploring possibilities with curiousity or forming objective analysis. It's stating an empirical "truth" without the option for an alternative or improved theory. It's night and day. Religion starts with the answer and fills in the blanks. Science simply takes what already exists and tries to model it with mathematics. In fact, what does religion have to prove? According to everyones' faith, you've already got all the answers.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Ormiston said:
Scientist: In the beginning it appears...according to these numbers and these tests.

Note the difference. "In the beginning God created..." isn't exploring possibilities with curiousity or forming objective analysis. It's stating an empirical "truth" without the option for an alternative or improved theory. It's night and day. Religion starts with the answer and fills in the blanks. Science simply takes what already exists and tries to model it with mathematics. In fact, what does religion have to prove? According to everyones' faith, you've already got all the answers.
No....Religion [Christianity to be more specific] uses his/her supernatural gift of faith to start [in this case at least]. The gaps are can be left up to science. And No, we do not have all the answers. I learn plenty in this forum from different people. Even you.;)

~Victor
 

Ormiston

Well-Known Member
Victor said:
No....Religion [Christianity to be more specific] uses his/her supernatural gift of faith to start [in this case at least]. The gaps are can be left up to science. And No, we do not have all the answers. I learn plenty in this forum from different people. Even you.;)

~Victor
:D Well, to be honest, I enjoy talking with you as much as anyone. But, I feel like the scientist is not obligated to argue with the theologist about the beginning. Nothing changes in appearance if the theologist is right or wrong. If the world is 6000 years old (just using this as an example, nothing more) and God started things off with the dinosaur bones already in the ground, it still APPEARS that the earth is billions of years old. That's what science deals with: appearances. The starting point, to a scientist, is irrelevant if it can't be discerned through data. Sure, they'd like to know, but they require information from reality, not inspiration from the supernatural to come to their conclusions.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Ormiston said:
:D Well, to be honest, I enjoy talking with you as much as anyone. But, I feel like the scientist is not obligated to argue with the theologist about the beginning. Nothing changes in appearance if the theologist is right or wrong. If the world is 6000 years old (just using this as an example, nothing more) and God started things off with the dinosaur bones already in the ground, it still APPEARS that the earth is billions of years old. That's what science deals with: appearances. The starting point, to a scientist, is irrelevant if it can't be discerned through data. Sure, they'd like to know, but they require information from reality, not inspiration from the supernatural to come to their conclusions.
For the record, I'm not a new-earth creationist. And I understand that Scientist use observable and measurable data. This is how the natural sciences work. And if any religion functioned in this manner, we would hardly be discussing it right now. More then likely, you and most everyone would subribe to it. With only a few nutcases that wouldn't. Religion on the other hand delves into metaphysics/reason as a means to come to abstractly understand Him.

~Victor
 

Ormiston

Well-Known Member
Victor said:
For the record, I'm not a new-earth creationist. And I understand that Scientist use observable and measurable data. This is how the natural sciences work. And if any religion functioned in this manner, we would hardly be discussing it right now. More then likely, you and most everyone would subribe to it. With only a few nutcases that wouldn't. Religion on the other hand delves into metaphysics/reason as a means to come to abstractly understand Him.

~Victor
I was hoping to not, in any way, suggest you were...I just like the analogy. :)

Both religion and science have been incredibly successful in their long, illustrious, existances. It seems one of the most troublesome areas for religion recently, has been the embarrassing results it has received when it attempts to cross from the "Supernatural" into the "Natural". I understand the selfish benefits religion would gain from a successful coup, but frankly, I think it's overmatched. Imagine if science suddenly wished to describe spirits or ghosts or any supernatural event...uhhhhh, wait a second...so that's where the Sci-Fi Channel came from! :rolleyes:
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Evolution is not an either-or proposition. There is more than one way biological change can be effected, hence the several theories of evolution.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
For those interested, do you think evolution is an affective club for beating religion? If so why?


Why should anyone want 'an effective club' ? You make non-theists sound like a crowd intent on pulverising religion into the ground. besides, evolution does not necessarily 'negate religion'.........
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
michel said:
Why should anyone want 'an effective club' ? You make non-theists sound like a crowd intent on pulverising religion into the ground. besides, evolution does not necessarily 'negate religion'.........
True. Having said that, some evolutionists would tell you that it does negate religion and certainly do use it as a stick to beat religion with. Dawkins springs most forcefully to mind. He really hates religion, and I don't think that is too strong a word to use. Personally I see no conflict between religion and evolution but there are extremists in both camps who do (admittedly, there are almost certainly more religious anti-evolutionists than the reverse, though).

James
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
michel said:
Why should anyone want 'an effective club' ? You make non-theists sound like a crowd intent on pulverising religion into the ground. besides, evolution does not necessarily 'negate religion'.........
True. James did a wonderful job of what I had in mind.

~Victor
 
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