• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Evolution, maybe someone can explain?

cladking

Well-Known Member
Rubbish. Any who have read On the Origin of Species will know why and how the term was used - to bait all the numbskulls who can't understand this of course. :p

Irrelevant word games.

It took years to get believers to admit He used the words at all. I was called every name in the book trying. "Numbskull" might have been overlooked but no matter it would have been the nicest one. Now, finally it is admitted that He used the term but it isn't a synonym for "natural selection". It apparently is erroneous because it wasn't thought up by a Peer and we are to believe that nature doesn't select the fittest at all but rather selects the less fit and less adaptable. That's one fickle mother nature who doesn't know what she wants.

A sow's ear by any name still stinks after you run it up the flagpole a few times. We are supposed to salute the concept that some people who used to exist for sabre toothed tiger feed are just cannon fodder today because that's Evolution. Even the dregs of humanity today could beat up, out smart, and run circles around a caveman. They believed in gods you know and never even heard of experiment or statistics.

Belief is a powerful force but it affects only individuals and it makes us weaker rather than stronger. If it weren't for the knowledge created by REAL science we'd be goners. If it weren't for the invention of agriculture by ancient science people after the tower of babel would have been goners rather than surviving and giving birth to nature's handiwork and Crown of Creation; Homo omnisciencis (hear us boast).

Did I ever mention that agriculture was invented by means of the introduction of artificial bottlenecks that selected largely for tameness? Herding leopards into the barn for milking would have proven as difficult as trying to get wild goats to come into town when you needed fresh meat. If Darwin had been there he'd have died trying to get them to gradually change into his ideal of what a farm animal should look like.

There are no miracles and no gradual change in species. Notice that the change in the argument about whether or not Darwin used "survival of the fittest" keeps changing suddenly, just like real life. Nothing changes gradually. A falling ball doesn't gradually hit the ground any more than two galaxies collide do it gradually. Animals don't die gradually and change in life isn't gradual. If Darwin were still alive He might have gradually changed His mind though.

And now we're all numbskulls who are being baited by bad science.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Did I ever mention that agriculture was invented by means of the introduction of artificial bottlenecks that selected largely for tameness?

"Tameness" is by definition a behavior or constellation of behaviors which are by definition resulting from consciousness which by definition arises from genetics and experience. Consciousness and individuality lies at the very heart of "species" and ALL LIFE. Yet Darwin excluded the very concept and scientists today do the same because they lack even the simplest definition for it. They lack this definition which every other individual life form on earth has because we experience thought instead. Rather than see reality like an oak tree or a porpoise we see what we believe and can't see the the nature of life and consciousness. This gives rise to confusion which we have experienced for 4000 years. It gives rise to the "Theory" of Evolution which ignores the very nature of life and holds an abstraction called "species" over what is real and fundamental; "consciousness".

There are no species. There is no survival of the fittest. There is no gradual change in offspring. It just seems this way because of the way we think.
 
Last edited:

Димитар

Прaвославие!
Very little.

If I do have any kind of specialized knowledge I tend to quickly convert it to general knowledge and forget. I'm more interested in systems than processes and to me reality is one huge system based in logic and perceived in consciousness by logic and humans by experiment. I try to see all the parts in terms of the whole.

The body as a system interests me as I do have one of my own. But I don't believe that the "neuro part of our bodies" or thought takes place in the brain but rather in the entire individual.

Gainsaying what I say is not an argument.
Then your answer suggest that you are only here to reject the natural processes.

Nobody is going to answer Biology in the sense of Metaphysics , only you.

I was dumb enough to try to convince you to talk about Biology , but it was my mistake.

So as i know that there is no basis for proper conversation , this is the last time i am discussing this with you.

You want to play a game , and you want 1-0 to be for you even before the game starts.

No can do.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
You want to play a game , and you want 1-0 to be for you even before the game starts.

It would be more accurate to say I believe I'm 1 - 0 before we start because my assumptions were correct.

Our species each think we know everything whether we are religious, a physicist who thinks a plane can't take off from a conveyor belt, or Charles freaking Darwin Himself. It's what we do. I wouldn't be here arguing if I didn't think I was right and you are wrong.

Every single member of our species get to where we're at in the exact same way; we reason in circles. There is no alternative whatsoever to stop this except for experiment.

I reasoned in circles to get where I am. Before I even started I knew I'd reason in circles because I think the same way we all do; in terms of our beliefs. But this is where I had a leg up on Darwin: my beliefs were more reflective of reality than His were. When I reasoned in circles I ended up at a point much more reflective of reality than Darwin did.

This can't be phrased more simply. WYSIWYG. You see what you believe and this always drives you back to where you started. Anybody might be right about anything but he still got to where he is circularly. Homo circularis rationatio.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Irrelevant word games.

It took years to get believers to admit He used the words at all. I was called every name in the book trying. "Numbskull" might have been overlooked but no matter it would have been the nicest one. Now, finally it is admitted that He used the term but it isn't a synonym for "natural selection". It apparently is erroneous because it wasn't thought up by a Peer and we are to believe that nature doesn't select the fittest at all but rather selects the less fit and less adaptable. That's one fickle mother nature who doesn't know what she wants.

A sow's ear by any name still stinks after you run it up the flagpole a few times. We are supposed to salute the concept that some people who used to exist for sabre toothed tiger feed are just cannon fodder today because that's Evolution. Even the dregs of humanity today could beat up, out smart, and run circles around a caveman. They believed in gods you know and never even heard of experiment or statistics.

Belief is a powerful force but it affects only individuals and it makes us weaker rather than stronger. If it weren't for the knowledge created by REAL science we'd be goners. If it weren't for the invention of agriculture by ancient science people after the tower of babel would have been goners rather than surviving and giving birth to nature's handiwork and Crown of Creation; Homo omnisciencis (hear us boast).

Did I ever mention that agriculture was invented by means of the introduction of artificial bottlenecks that selected largely for tameness? Herding leopards into the barn for milking would have proven as difficult as trying to get wild goats to come into town when you needed fresh meat. If Darwin had been there he'd have died trying to get them to gradually change into his ideal of what a farm animal should look like.

There are no miracles and no gradual change in species. Notice that the change in the argument about whether or not Darwin used "survival of the fittest" keeps changing suddenly, just like real life. Nothing changes gradually. A falling ball doesn't gradually hit the ground any more than two galaxies collide do it gradually. Animals don't die gradually and change in life isn't gradual. If Darwin were still alive He might have gradually changed His mind though.

And now we're all numbskulls who are being baited by bad science.
But you know how it is meant to be read - not as to the fittest (strongest, whatever) surviving - so why carry on with this charade?
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
But you know how it is meant to be read - not as to the fittest (strongest, whatever) surviving - so why carry on with this charade?

I see no charade. I do understand why believers prefer "natural selection" but it is still nothing but terminology. Reality doesn't exist in words and terminology. It is both external to ourselves and in which we exist and can influence it by free will. We can shout words until we're blue in the face and they have no effect on reality and precious little on other people. We've believed in survival of the fittest for two centuries but "species" still aren't real and every observation still says changes in life are sudden.

I find the concept of "natural selection" appalling. The idea that most humans believe that nature anoints some of her creatures in such a way is appalling. The male cardinal I saw yesterday harvesting seeds in quantity wasn't looking around to see who "dug him" (though he did seem to know I was watching). He was doing what came naturally to him; consciously interacting with reality to his own ends. He wasn't thinking about his own offspring in the spring whom would have better genes because he himself must be so anointed. He was simply working to get himself and his mate through an upcoming winter while cooperating with every other life form and species.

Nature works to maximize the total amount of life and does so chiefly through consciousness. Every individual in doing what's best for itself does what is best for life. Only humans get in and do what's bad for life and themselves because of our short term goals and nearsightedness.

All individuals come into the world equally fit. And an earthworm is just as fit as a robin. The robin wouldn't even want an unfit earthworm because it couldn't taste as good. It wouldn't want an unanointed earthworm.

Perhaps instead of "survival of the fittest" I could say "prosperity for the anointed", but a sow's ear by any other name...
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
We can shout words until we're blue in the face and they have no effect on reality and precious little on other people.

And how ironic that shouting any word will cause a hurricane in Florida. The specific word will even affect the details of the storm.

But it won't affect the current price of tea in China. And no word is worth a single bean in a hill of beans. But all I get are word games.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
This is remarkable. It took years to get believers to admit that Darwin used the term "survival of the fittest". Now they finally admit it bit won't admit he used it as a synonym for natural selections.

It's an ongoing word game for believers. They think that if you just use their terminology you'll suddenly see the light and believe.
Scientists do not tend to use it today because of how science deniers have abused the term. It only leads to more confusion on the part of people that do not understand the sciences.

You can see that here were creationists cannot properly explain what the phrase means.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
It wouldn't want an unanointed earthworm.

Imagine how bad an unanointed earthworm must taste! Even a robin wouldn't want to get any raw worm on himself.

It would sound worse to a robin than dead gagh sounds to a Klingon Warrior. It might have cooties.
 

ChieftheCef

Well-Known Member
My view now, after learning and thinking about, though entirely radical, is based on science and educated guessing.

The Quantum Field composes consciousness so it's likely everything is conscious to some extent. So genes from, what we'll reduce to, rocks were produced by the reality. The ocean is doing the wave, not the wave the ocean.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
My view now, after learning and thinking about, though entirely radical, is based on science and educated guessing.

The Quantum Field composes consciousness so it's likely everything is conscious to some extent. So genes from, what we'll reduce to, rocks were produced by the reality. The ocean is doing the wave, not the wave the ocean.

You might not be so far wrong. It's entirely possible that there is a low level of consciousness even in a stone but I'm sure even a 6 1/2 million ton pile of them isn't as smart as an acorn.

But then stones can be neither "marked for death" nor "anointed for life". A smart stone would fall down a hill anyway.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No. Easter. Rabbit.
Are you aware of this tradition? Tomorrow is rabbit, rabbit, rabbit day: Rabbit rabbit rabbit - Wikipedia

My wife and a girlfriend of hers in California nicknamed Bunny write emails to one another every day. The other gal is into this tradition, so I remind my wife when it's the last day of the month as I did this morning so that she remembers to include that phrase in her note that she will write this afternoon after reading her friend's AM message, which the friend will see tomorrow morning.
1 I think there are good reasons to think that the natural world had a begining and a cause..... (It probably started at the big bang)
2 if true then by definition the cause has to be non natural (, otherwise it wouldn't be the cause of the natural world)
Disagree. If our reality has a cause, it too is a part of nature. Whether than be a multiverse of a deity, if these things exist, they are natural. There is no justification for calling either of those things supernatural. Nature and reality are synonymous, and each can be defined as the collection of objects and processes that are causally connected, that is, can affect one another.
One path we know, that does not work, in terms of truth, is statistical science.
It works fine in predicting outcomes. That's how casinos make money. That's why the lottery is profitable for those running it. That's how insurers make money (until their statistics are no longer valid as with climate change and worsening extreme weather).
This is why casino science has to depend on prestige; emotional manipulation similar to liberalism.
Casino's depend on accurate statistical analyses.

Since you chose to inject politics into this, it was a prominent conservative who declared bankruptcy TWICE owning casinos.
Can you list those species that are not "good enough" before they go extinct?
All of them. None were good enough to survive, and thus went extinct. If you want to see a partial list, you can start here: Lists of extinct species - Wikipedia
An animal can't see a table at all. Tables are invisible to your dog. They see a flat surface often holding object dear to their master.
That's the table. If the object on the table is an unattended steak, the dog will get it from the table.

I'm guessing that you meant that an animal can't say table.
"Truth" is a statement concerning reality that is universally correct.
I define these words thusly: Truth is the quality that all facts and only facts possess, a fact being a linguistic string (sentence, paragraph) that accurately maps a piece of sensible reality.

If I say that I live five blocks north and three blocks east of the pier, and a walk from my front door of five blocks south and three blocks west gets me to the pier, then the claim is a fact derived from testing reality which (literally in this example) maps a piece of reality and is useful for accurately predicting outcomes. If I follow the directions, I will end up where I intended and expected.
Inductive logic is a mess because it's based on taxonomies which are mere mnemonics. Deductive logic is a little better but words still can't correspond directly to reality in confused language.
There is no deduction without prior induction. When you solve a problem like, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, ? you do so first by making a general rule (the nth element of the series is 2n), and then a deduction from it (the 6th element will be 12)

data -> induction (general rule) -> deduction (new datum)
Observation that can be predicted can rise nearly to the level of experiment.
No, it can't.

Observation that can be predicted is confirmation that the method of predicting is valid. Sometimes, that requires experimentation as with the Higgs particle, which had to wait for very large and powerful machines to be built and operated to perform experiments which confirmed Higgs's hypothesis. Thales and Einstein also made predictions (deductions) which, when confirmed, established that their inductions (a method for predicting eclipses and a theory that predicted gravitational lensing respectively) were valid.
It took years to get believers to admit that Darwin used the term "survival of the fittest"
That was great work of great value that should have a profound impact on something - I think.
I would certainly suggest that magic is a better explanation than anyone's opinion.
Except that opinion, right?
we just don't see what's in front of our face.
I do. That's how we avoid walking into walls and closed doors. Unless they're glass (trigger alert: f-bombs):

It should also make a great place to bang my head when you shortly return with more word games.
Glad to be of service.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Are you aware of this tradition? Tomorrow is rabbit, rabbit, rabbit day: Rabbit rabbit rabbit - Wikipedia

My wife and a girlfriend of hers in California nicknamed Bunny write emails to one another every day. The other gal is into this tradition, so I remind my wife when it's the last day of the month as I did this morning so that she remembers to include that phrase in her note that she will write this afternoon after reading her friend's AM message, which the friend will see tomorrow morning.
That is a lot kinder than this tradition and it is probably rabbit approved as well:

 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the post. I often think engineers should run the world because practical is where the rubber meets the road. There never was anything practical about politics and this is more true than ever before.



You're most probably correct but if you go back far enough then there was a language that was mathematical for a science that was not.
Modern empirical science; Life Sciences, which uses statistical methods to set up experiments, has math leading science. I had my own experience with a mathematician, setting up the black box for one of my innovations. He was assigned to parallel me. I took the approach of an open box, with logical anticipation; knew what to expect. We both reached the same conclusion; worked perfectly, but only my approach had science before math. The management assumed my unique solution would be like a medicine with some side effects, but there were no side effects when science and logic leads. Medicine lets math lead and that horse is based on odds and that builds in side effects at the margins of error.

Math is a tool. It is like a faithful horse than can pull a cart to market. It adds leverage. But consciousness and science is supposed to steer the horse, who pulls cart. That was classic science with the math model coming after you make the theory and plot all the data. The theory helps you to know what types of experiments you need to do.

In my situation, the statisticians was a mathematician, who was not a chemist or engineer, both of which were needed to get the process ready. Even without the special skills needed to get that far, he could still use the black box without ever understanding what I had done. The pitfall of having the horse; math, steer and the driver become a passenger; life science, is the passenger cannot take a new short cut based on reason and common sense. The horse has a given way, over bumps and holes, and you are required to sit back and go along with the same ride everyone else takes; herd effect, with built in side effects; bumps and holes, as a result of the statistical horse leading. It is the black box blind leading the blind; empirical.

Applied science is about science first and the math later, if needed. When I started that development project from scratch, I ran test experiments, but I did not use a statistical horse set up. I would first form a theory, run one experiment, carefully, and I could tell right away; yes, no, or maybe. It gave me a vector or not. Then I change directions 180 or 90 degrees or not. It took me two weeks and I was done and ready to scale up. Good theory allows for speed. This is due to first forming a logic train, so few experiment become necessary. The black box has no logic, so more experiments is always better, but that will be more time consuming and more expensive with the result in the image of the statistical tool; fuzzy.

This discussion is about evolution and the life sciences, both which let the horse steer. The basic theory of evolution is fine, but the math first approach has built in fuzzy dice and falls and short of logical reality. This is caused by this particular math horse; tool. That hammer leads the carpenter.

Water Model of Life

The more logical approach to life and evolution, I developed, is centered on water. This approach simplifies enough to allow logic. There are 50 times as many water molecules, as all the organic molecules, combined in each cell. Water interacts with all of them. Why not simplify by looking at life from the simplicity of one molecule, instead of the complexity of all the organics that parallel?

Water is also the timeless component of life, that did not change, from before and then during abiogenesis, to the present and even into the future. Water is the terminal product of the oxygen and hydrogen flame and is very stable; stable bookend. The same potentials of water were at work and shall be at work, as the organics got, get and shall get more and more complex. At any point in evolution, past to future water was and will be doing very similar physical chemical things; chemical selection at the nanoscale. What was the goal of the water; organic evolution via the 2nd law.

Water and oil; (general terms for the organics of life) do not always form ideal solutions, but rather they create surface tension, which will cause them to gain potential and often separate. When they come together there is a built in repulsion; water and oil. With water being dominant, in numbers and in secondary bonding forces, the organics have to obey; rule 1.

Proteins are folded and packed by water to lower the surface tension of the water; water leads. This also lowers the protein entropy against the second law. The removal of the surface tension; repulsion is exothermic This add an entropic potential; endothermic, or an enhanced ability to express the 2nd law; protein catalysis.

The entire cell is catalytic, due to the water-oil effect, due to water leading. Life is like the second law, being expressed in a large 3-D coordinated way, mediated by the water. Every protein and enzyme is doing the same water dance, differing only by the type of oil; amino acid sequence, water will pack away.

Water is unique in that it can form up to four hydrogen bonds per water molecule. While each hydrogen bonds is like little binary switches that can shift between polar and covalent settings, without breaking the bond. It is the perfect matrix for moving 3-D information. The water is not just in contact with organics but also other water; bridge between all parts and the whole; 3-D water matrix of binary switches.

Hydrogen bonds are also unique in that their binary switch nature, splits the electromagnetic force into polar and magnetic components. Polar is about charge; electrostatic, while covalent is about opposite spin electron in shared orbitals; magnetic attraction is stronger than charge repulsion. The information matrix is very complex blending of signals that also has muscle.
 
Top