Ex Christians

[Vadergirl123]

If this thread was designed to convince non-Christians like me to remain non-Christians,

Hahaha no I created it to better understand why people turn away form christianity. It's doing what I want it too

 

[Vadergirl123]

In both cases and their subsequent scenarios, the main factor in being a moral person isn't following the Bible/scripture or lack thereof; it is a person's own moral compass and desire to be moral.

I'm not saying you can be a moral person by only following the Bible. I'm saying without it(or God) there'd be no definite sense of morality. As you just showed, everyone has different consciences, and you can't base morality on them.

 

[Vadergirl123]

My life was a train wreck in almost every way imaginable before I met Jesus. I was about one step away from death. From the moment I put my trust in JC some of the burdens started to be lifted. They didn't go away but I could feel myself being sustained amidst very difficult circumstances. Slowly the broken pieces of my life started getting put back together. Mind you, it's still a work in progress but I finally have hope for the future.

I'm glad to hear you're doing better and I'll defnitely be praying for you

 

[Vadergirl123]

but i'm curious, why couldn't you just take my word for it?

Please don't take it personally, I didn't believe you were lying, I more of doubted if the article was real, or if you had interpreted it wrong.

in order for any society to function and thrive is to set up moral codes, which are in fact subjective. in one society it is moral to circumcise a female in others it's an abhorrent act. that isn't proof that people cannot be moral with out the bible...a subjective moral code.

I don't believe I ever said people can't be moral withuot God. I said that they can;t have a definite sense of morality without him. Meaning what's wrong to you can be right to me.

thou shall not murder is not an exclusive moral code given by the god of the bible you know.

Yes it is, why? do you believe murder is fine in some societies?

 

[Debater Slayer]

I'm not saying you can be a moral person by only following the Bible. I'm saying without it(or God) there'd be no definite sense of morality. As you just showed, everyone has different consciences, and you can't base morality on them.

But not everyone agrees on the Biblical moral commandments or bases their moral decisions on them, either.

 

[Caladan]

I'm not saying you can be a moral person by only following the Bible. I'm saying without it(or God) there'd be no definite sense of morality. As you just showed, everyone has different consciences, and you can't base morality on them.

Are you saying that there have never been other sources of codified or accepted sets of morals?

I'll agree that the Bible has been instrumental in contributing to western (and also eastern to a large extent) historical pillars of morality. But all morals are set for change, development and adaptation to new circumstances and new environments.
In other words, Biblical morality was forged in a certain geographical and historical episode, it has also been incredibly coherent to contribute to later historical episodes, all the way thousands of years to the modern times. But today we have different tools and different problems that the Bible cannot provide the answers for.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Hahaha no I created it to better understand why people turn away form christianity. It's doing what I want it too

See, here's the thing. To truly empathize and understand former Christians, or anyone for that matter, one has to "walk a mile" in their shoes. Perspectives need to be thrown out the window for that mile and adopt their perspective.

What you're doing is asking questions that are more of a challenging nature than an empathetic one. So no, I doubt that the intent of the thread is to truly understand but to argue from the perspective of a Christian.

 

[waitasec]

Please don't take it personally, I didn't believe you were lying, I more of doubted if the article was real, or if you had interpreted it wrong.

funny.

I don't believe I ever said people can't be moral withuot God. I said that they can;t have a definite sense of morality without him. Meaning what's wrong to you can be right to me.

well you think it was a moral act to stone a girl for not bleeding on her wedding night...even though, unbeknownst to these ignorant men, women don't always bleed their 1st time.

Yes it is, why? do you believe murder is fine in some societies?

no it is not.
look up the code of hammurabi
mohism and taoism there are plenty of ancient codes out there that were actually ahead of the golden rule.

1st we need to agree on a definition of murder and the context

i do find it interesting that right after god tells his people to, thou shall not murder, he commands them to commit genocide...the midianites for example...lets not forget the girl who didn't bleed on her wedding night.

 

[waitasec]

Nope, I really did answer your question, but you yourself just said it wasn't sufficient( Is it wrong for me to think you didn't like the answer?)

it isn't wrong to make a judgement call if the judgment is accurate.
just because i do not agree doesn't mean i don't like what i hear.
i want the truth. i want to know if i look fat in those jeans, so to speak.
i won't be satisfied with wanting to look skinny in those jeans..i have to KNOW.
(read my signature)
just because your criteria for being convinced is based on faith doesn't mean that it's mine too.

Absolutely, I love God very, very much and I couldn't imagine spending eternity without him.

what do you mean?
you actually enjoy places on your own while not thinking you like to share it with someone you care about/other than god of course.
this eternity thing drives me crazy btw, can you even fathom what that means, really?

Yes I agree, and that's why God gives us his word, so that we can know some about him. If we didn't have the Bible we couldn't know who God was or what he was like. We would just have to from ideas of God based on our minds or feelings.

that is absolutely circular to me. for this to not go in circles, support your claim that the bible is the word of god...faith is circular btw...so you and i both know here that the only way for my question to be answered is for this theology to provide empirical evidence to stop the spin cycle, if the bible claims it, it must be so....i require proof, otherwise if you say:
the bible is enough for me and i can accept that it isn't for you...not that, 'i don't like what it says and it's the reason for my dismissal of it' then we are in agreement that you and i are listening to what we are saying about what our respective criteria is in determining what this theology means.
i can accept the bible is enough for you, i was there once, i understand.

 

[Vadergirl123]

But not everyone agrees on the Biblical moral commandments or bases their moral decisions on them, either.

No everyone doesn't follow them/chose to base their morals on them.

 

[Vadergirl123]

Are you saying that there have never been other sources of codified or accepted sets of morals?

No

In other words, Biblical morality was forged in a certain geographical and historical episode, it has also been incredibly coherent to contribute to later historical episodes, all the way thousands of years to the modern times. But today we have different tools and different problems that the Bible cannot provide the answers for.

Can you give me a problem the Bible doesn't adress?

 

[Caladan]

Can you give me a problem the Bible doesn't adress?

Can you list the problems the Bible does address?

 

[Vadergirl123]

See, here's the thing. To truly empathize and understand former Christians, or anyone for that matter, one has to "walk a mile" in their shoes. Perspectives need to be thrown out the window for that mile and adopt their perspective.

I've turned away form God before so I'd say I can empathize with that.

What you're doing is asking questions that are more of a challenging nature than an empathetic one. So no, I doubt that the intent of the thread is to truly understand but to argue from the perspective of a Christian.

I don't think I'm arguing about why they left. When someone did reply I asked some more questions. I wanted to make sure they really were christians in the first place(which seems to be the case with just about everyone) and then trying to see what happened that made them turn away exactly, or asked some more questions about what they believed and why. The thread is helping me(I don't know about anyone else) to understand why people left.

 

[Vadergirl123]

Can you list the problems the Bible does address?

Stealing for one, what are some problems it doesn't?

 

[Caladan]

Stealing for one, what are some problems it doesn't?

That's it? stealing?
Do you really need the Bible to forbid you to steal in order to understand the problems inherit in it?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Stem cell research

 

[Caladan]

Stem cell research

I was going to go there, but I'm developing a different strategy here.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Sorry! I did not mean to interrupt the flow, carry on

 

[Vadergirl123]

That's it? stealing?

You asked me for a problem it talks about and I gave you one. What's a problem it doesn't adress?

 

[Caladan]

You asked me for a problem it talks about and I gave you one. What's a problem it doesn't adress?

Your problem (stealing) is very basic. Modern (and ancient) legal codes, norms and platforms have developed numerous of approaches to deal with it. I assume that the rest of your problems are also going to be simple and basic, the type of problems in the spirit of: Killing, stealing, traditional marriage values, and similar problems.
The modern world has brought an infinite amount of circumstances and problems that the Bible is in no way an authority over. Medical research, the development of human rights, the development of an extensive legal system, and many other realities that Iron Age scribes, no matter how talented and experienced they were didn't have to deal with or spend a considerable amount of time thinking about.

For example, now that homosexuality has become legal in many countries, we have a new reality and a new problem: Countries and societies fight over legalizing same-sex marriages and unions. The Bible simply does not address a reality in which homosexuality is becoming an accepted social norm.

Your first example shows the kind of problems the Bible deals with. But today we are living in the age of space exploration, genetic research, acceptance of members of our society with different sexual orientation, mass media, and other social and technological problems that go well beyond Not killing, or Not stealing.

In other words, what does the Bible tell us about ecological concerns beyond ideals that man is a care taker of the earth?
Or what does the Bible has to tell us about future colonization of Mars?
What does it have to tell us about cloning biological life forms?
What does the Bible has to say about the Human Genome Project? about the LHC? or drones attacks in Northern Pakistan?