Examining Christianity as a Jewish heresy

[Rainbow Mage]

Exactly what the title says. I couldn't help it, after something I posted in another thread. I'm eager to see where this debate could lead. Let's start with the messiah. The Christian view of the messiah as oppossed to the Jewish view. The Jewish view is that the messiah will be a king, a warrior, one who gathers the lost tribes together, one who puts the enemies of Israel under his feet. How does this contrast to the Christian view of the messiah?

 

[arimoff]

Exactly what the title says. I couldn't help it, after something I posted in another thread. I'm eager to see where this debate could lead. Let's start with the messiah. The Christian view of the messiah as oppossed to the Jewish view. The Jewish view is that the messiah will be a king, a warrior, one who gathers the lost tribes together, one who puts the enemies of Israel under his feet. How does this contrast to the Christian view of the messiah?

Are you for real? you are either deliberately provoking an argument by saying putting Israels enemies under his feet or you need to do a lot more research before starting this thread.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Does Judaism not teach that Messiah ben David will avenge the death of messiah ben Yosef upon his enemies? Unless I am much mistaken from listening to lectures by Rabbi Moshe Shulman, that is what he said.

 

[Man of Faith]

The Jewish view of the Messiah and the Christian one are exactly the same, it's just a difference of when. The Jews expect the Messiah to establish his kingdom on earth and to be a king and ruler on earth. Unfortunately the prophets don't say when his kingdom will be established on earth. The Christians say that Jesus will establish his rule on earth when he returns. I think the Christian view is the correct one because Jesus also fulfills Isaiah 53 the suffering servent. IMO

 

[Rainbow Mage]

The Jewish view of the Messiah and the Christian one are exactly the same, it's just a difference of when. The Jews expect the Messiah to establish his kingdom on earth and to be a king and ruler on earth. Unfortunately the prophets don't say when his kingdom will be established on earth. The Christians say that Jesus will establish his rule on earth when he returns. I think the Christian view is the correct one because Jesus also fulfills Isaiah 53 the suffering servent. IMO

Isaiah 53 is about the nation of Israel, read it again slowly. You'll see

 

[Smoke]

I don't really see Christianity as a Jewish heresy. I think things are more complicated than that, and the interplay of paganism, rationalism, Zoroastrianism, Gnosticism, Christianity, Islam and Judaism is very intricate.

I mean, there's a sense in which you could say that Islam is a Christian heresy, or Protestantism is a Muslim heresy, but you'd be oversimplifying.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Well, I have seen Christianity as the pagan-izing of Judaism. So it's a Jewish heresy, for sure, especially as it developed over time.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

You see it as the Pagan-izing of Judaism? Interesting. Maybe you'd like to expound upon that.

 

[Oberon]

Exactly what the title says.

You could just as easily argue that rabbinic judaism was a heresy, as it represented a radical departure from then-"traditional" judaism.

 

[arimoff]

Does Judaism not teach that Messiah ben David will avenge the death of messiah ben Yosef upon his enemies? Unless I am much mistaken from listening to lectures by Rabbi Moshe Shulman, that is what he said.

the point of Moshiach is to restore peace and happiness not for just Jews (as Jesus for just does who believe in him) but for everybody on this planet.

What Rabbi Moshe Shulman was probably saying is that Moshiach ben David will finish the task that Moshiach ben Yosef will start and by saying enemies he means those who oppose peace and happiness regardless of their nationality or believes.

 

[arimoff]

The Jewish view of the Messiah and the Christian one are exactly the same, it's just a difference of when. The Jews expect the Messiah to establish his kingdom on earth and to be a king and ruler on earth. Unfortunately the prophets don't say when his kingdom will be established on earth. The Christians say that Jesus will establish his rule on earth when he returns. I think the Christian view is the correct one because Jesus also fulfills Isaiah 53 the suffering servent. IMO

Totally wrong, you took our concept out of the ball park, with regards to moshiach Christians raped the idea out of its meaning so much that it should embarrassing to even slightly claim them to be the same. We don't make man in to gods, I haven't met one Christian who has any idea of what Moshiach is but yet they are the first to jump in with their opinions.

 

[xkatz]

I would say that after Paul, Christianity changed from a "Jewish heresy" into something completely different.

 

[logician]

The links between the OT and the NT are largely contrived by the writers of the gospels, mainly fueled by whatever background they came from.

 

[Smoke]

Well, I have seen Christianity as the pagan-izing of Judaism.

I see it more as applying a Jewish veneer to paganism.

I would say that after Paul, Christianity changed from a "Jewish heresy" into something completely different.

I'd say that Paul founded Christianity as we know it, and that before Paul the Jesus movement was simply Jewish. I'm not sure the parameters of Orthodoxy in the first century are entirely clear, but if we say that Pharisaism = Orthodoxy, then I think we have to conclude that the Jesus movement was pretty much Orthodox, since it was basically a Pharisee sect.

 

[fallingblood]

Exactly what the title says. I couldn't help it, after something I posted in another thread. I'm eager to see where this debate could lead. Let's start with the messiah. The Christian view of the messiah as oppossed to the Jewish view. The Jewish view is that the messiah will be a king, a warrior, one who gathers the lost tribes together, one who puts the enemies of Israel under his feet. How does this contrast to the Christian view of the messiah?

Of course it is. However, the Jesus movement, which was still a sect of Judaism, could be considered a Jewish heresy.

The word heresy holds too many negative connotations though. Being a heresy is not necessarily a bad thing. Especially considering when Christianity was developing, it was fully under Judaism, and was a sect of Judaism. Yet, it was still considered a heresy.

As for the messiah, during the time, it was completely acceptable. There were different views of what the messiah would be. For instance, there is evidence that the Essenes believed that there were actually two messiahs. At the time, Jesus was fully able to be seen as the messiah even under Judaism.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I see it more as applying a Jewish veneer to paganism.

I agree

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Yes, and oddly enough, it fits well. Applying Jewish vaneer to Paganism I mean.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I guess so, it's attracted over a billion people.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Yes, but that doesn't change that it's a Jewish heresy, and that most of the ideas it teaches are totally un-Jewish. Such as, the atonement. That's another one. Anyone care to point out any religious Jew who believes somebody else can die for our sin?

 

[Oberon]

Yes, but that doesn't change that it's a Jewish heresy

Again, if that is true, than the judaism of the 2nd temple period was in many ways "jewish heresy." And rabbinic judaism even more so. So what?