As far as I understand it, yes. Though I don't know everything.
Although his earthly Kingdom is limited, especially because Jesus rose from the dead.
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Exercise regarding Christian Scriptures
- Thread starter PoetPhilosopher
- Start date
Although his earthly Kingdom is limited, especially because Jesus rose from the dead.
Samael_Khan
Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
Well that throws my whole connection with Lucifer falling when the sun rises idea out.
I forgot that Jesus is also called the morning star. I read that it was Venus in Bible reference books.A lot of Christian interpretations do stem from eisegesis. I think they are cool for narrative purposes and for creating books like Dante's Divine Comedy and Paradise Lost, but I don't see how it can be concluded that the writers of the older books had those thoughts in mind.
1. That story appears nowhere in the Tanakh, and only in Revelation in the NT ie no one else has heard or it, or having heard of it thinks it should be included.
2. No NT author attributes it to Jesus.
3. The story is figurative, not literal; or if you think it's literal then you have to accept that a pregnant woman can wear the sun as a garment while standing on the moon and being implicitly imposingly visible from the earth, not to mention a big red dragon with seven heads whose tails knocks a third of the stars out of the sky so that they fall to earth; and then straight on to the angel-fight (all Revelation 12).
In the Garden story nothing identifies Lucifer with the snake (nor the snake with Satan) The snake tells no lies, there is no mention of sin, original sin, the Fall of Man, death entering the world, or the need for a redeemer. God chucks them out of the Garden for one and only one explicit reason (Genesis 3:22) "Behold the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest his put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever ..." 23 therefore the Lord God sent him forth ...
That idea isn't present in the Tanakh, where Satan is simply one of the courtiers of Yahweh's heaven (eg as in Job). You have to get to the NT to find it.
In Revelation it's Satan, not Lucifer. (If you read Isaiah 14 carefully, you'll find 14:4 says, "You will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon" and in the taunting (14:12) you'll find "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn" conveying the idea of a fallen Big Shot and referring to the Morning Star (the planet Venus), which in Septuagint Greek becomes Phospheros ('Bringer of Light') and finally into Vulgate Latin as 'Lucifer' (again, 'Bringer of Light' / Morning Star / Venus). The king you're taunting may be Nebuchadrezzar.
So, sadly, I don't think your hypothesis is getting much oxygen from the bible and even less from reality.
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BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Satan is still free to discuss with God in Heaven (see the book of Job). He is "cast to the Earth" in the end times.
The new Heaven and Earth come not just after Armageddon but after the 1,000-year Millennial Period.
The big picture is,
Freewill in the end means the ability to reject God. As a mathematically expected outcome (as a science in terms of statistics and probabilities), there is thus a percentage of entities with freewill will rebel. By the degree of freewill given, the expected outcome is that there will be 2/3 angels saved (not rebel to reject God) and less than 1/3 humans saved (through the narrow gate). However due to Satan's influence (by his freewill), there will be no humans saved if judged by the same set of Law used on the angels. So in order to retain the same percentage for human salvation, an alternative way will be used for human judgment (humans will be judged by covenants granted on the blood of Jesus Christ). In order to do so a justification must be made, which is Jesus Christ.
Those rebel will thus living in a place without God's presence. "Burning" is rather a natural environment. Earth and this universe is not a natural world but God made (as conveyed by Christianity). Even science ever said that outside of our universe there could be heat and energy or perhaps a sea of fire. I ever saw a picture (somehow about science) of a multiverse model where there are multiple universes but with a sea of fire in between them.
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
If you use this principle -which is from biblical scripture -and take all scripture together, that "forever and ever" could possibly be true -until certain criteria are satisfied.
Isa 28:9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
For example.... it says -in different places -all of the following.....
1:some humans will be cast into the lake of fire
2:that God is able to destroy both body and spirit there
3:but that some will have their part in the lake of fire
4:and those whose works were not good will be saved, yet so as by fire.
I don't have time to look up stuff regarding angels, etc. right now -will try to get back to it.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Morning star (Son of dawn) is definitely planet Venus. Rise and fall is not because of the sun. The position of Venus in the sky is not fixed. It moves up and down. It appears like it makes a path:Well that throws my whole connection with Lucifer falling when the sun rises idea out.
Samael_Khan
Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
Morning star (Son of dawn) is definitely planet Venus. Rise and fall is not because of the sun. The position of Venus in the sky is not fixed. It moves up and down. It appears like it makes a path:
Thanks. My rising and falling comment was reference to post 15 in which I wrote a possible interpretation of the relationship to the morning star and sun as a metaphor.
JesusKnowsYou
Active Member
I am a Latter-day Saint - a restorationist Christian - and I believe that there are other scriptures and sources of truth outside of the Bible.
I will supplement my response with a few verses from the Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) - a book which contains revelations from God given to a man I believe to be a prophet - Joseph Smith Jr. - and it is considered modern-day scripture in my Church.
The Bible will be my main source though.
I do not believe that you got get things "wrong" - I feel like you did a decent job here - but I would like to point out a few things from my point of view.
First off - it is true that the scriptures claim that the rebellion of Lucifer and those who followed him took place before Adam and Eve were formed - but it is my belief that "we" (i.e. our spirits) did exist at that time and we were actively engaged against the rebellion.
It is my belief that before we came to Earth we existed and lived with God as His spirit children (Acts 17:28, Hebrews 12:9) - alongside Lucifer - and we were "chosen" before the "foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:3-4) and that we sang and rejoiced when the foundations of the Earth were laid (Job 38:7), God knew us before we were formed in the womb (Jeremiah 1:4-5) and our spirits will return to God upon death (Ecclesiastes 12:7).
The Doctrine and Covenants claims that, "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be." (D&C 93:29)
I believe that we took an active role against Lucifer's rebellion - which is evident by the fact that we have come to Earth and inherited physical bodies - or as Jude would put it we "kept our first estate" (Jude 1:6) and therefore gained our "second estate".
Lucifer and those who followed him we cast down to the Earth and will never be able to inherit a physical body.
Those who followed Lucifer - as well as those who commit the unpardonable sin while in their "second estate" are referred to as "perdition" and cannot repent of their sins and receive forgiveness in this life or the next (John 17:2, Hebrews 6:4-6).
The Doctrine and Covenants claims that these are called "perdition" because "the heavens wept over [them]" and they are the only ones who will not be redeemed (D&C 76:25-38).
I personally do not believe the "third" mentioned in Revelation is a reference to a numerical third - like one out of every three of the hosts (stars) of Heaven - but rather a "third part" or a third faction.
I believe that God's children may have been split in three different "parts" or ways of thinking and Lucifer manipulated the one faction that most closely agreed with his goals.
Even though Earth has been referred to as Lucifer's "kingdom" - I do not take that literally.
I believe it is referred to in this way simply due to the fact that all of us are currently subject to both sin and death and he has been allowed a certain level of influence to manipulate us and we are more likely than not to listen to him than God.
I do believe that Lucifer and his minions are currently experiencing the effects of Hell.
I believe that Hell is a temporary "condition" - not an actual place - and it exists upon the Earth - only Lucifer, his minions and the unrepentant who die will experience Hell and this condition will only last up until the Final Judgment.
The Doctrine and Covenants claims that those those who inherit the condition of Hell upon death will be subject to Lucifer until "the last Resurrection" which will take place after "the fulness of times" - and if they did not commit the unpardonable sin they will inherit a place in the Telestial Kingdom of God - which is considered the lowest tier of glory (D&C 76:81-86;98-109)
Then the Earth will be celestialized and inherit it's place near God's throne (new Heaven and Earth) - Lucifer, his minions, those who committed the unpardonable sin (a.k.a "perdition"), along with death and Hell will be cast into the "lake of fire" (Revelation 20:10;14).
Those who did not commit the unpardonable sin - yet still spent some time in Hell for being unrepentant - will receive their Final Judgment and receive a place in God's Kingdom.
I hope this made sense and apologize if it was too lengthy.
I just wanted to give you another Christian spin on these topics.
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The only criteria being till all time has elapsed.
And no, it does not make sense to take all scripture written by different authors with competing contradictory theologies together.
See the thread The Conflicting Theologies of the New Testament for details.
Does not conflict with the concept of eternal punishment
Depends on what the author in question meant, if they meant eternal destruction it does not disagree but either way I think the author of Mathew is not the author of Revelation.
And the part the false prophets have lasts, “forever”
You appear to be quoting from Paul here (a different author) who in context appears to be talking about those who built upon the foundation of the Word of God.
I find before the arrival of Adam and Eve there were No differences between God and Lucifer (Satan) because Satan was given an honored position according to Ezekiel 28:13-16 as cherub in Eden.
I also find Revelation 12:4-5 has to do with Jesus who was to rule all nations as Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16 informs us, Not at the time of Eden.
Satan was never in any hell, 'biblical hell' is simply mankind's temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead.
This is why Jesus and the OT both teach ' sleep ' in death - John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5.
Satan ends up destroyed by Jesus (Hebrews 2:14 B) and the definition of the lake of fire is : second death.
Satan ends up in ' second death ' - Revelation 21:8.
Sinner Satan is wicked and all the wicked will be 'destroyed forever' - Psalms 92:7
Before the action of God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 is taken, Satan is the 'god' of this world of badness - 2 Corinthians 4:4.
Once God's kingdom takes control over Earth, then Jesus as King of God's Kingdom government for a thousand years will be in control.
- 1 Corinthians 15:24-26
Think of creation as something which is ongoing from our perspective, including the last day of rest. In heaven it is finished. The goal is rest. The question is how to get to day seven. Creation brings form and light and separates what is dark from light. What does that, and what creates lasting peace? I think that this question would be meaningless without people.
Its difficult to track down where this particular story comes from for sure, but it likely begins with Paradise Lost -- which leads to an interesting tangent about the author, John Milton. He's at one time a censor for the Crown in England. He's a Puritan. He's against the Trinity. He opposes Charles I, disagrees with the Divine Right of Kings. He's blind when he writes Paradise Lost. He's a very outspoken, very against the grain person. He's a man who writes a story told from Satan's point of view, which just goes to show that Milton lives in a time when people are using their imaginations and reading and writing books. The printing press has been in operation for centuries by this time. Why you should re-read Paradise Lost
I think that is probably from Milton, so picking it apart theologically doesn't make sense to me. The fraction 1/3 appears in Revelation concerning 1/3 of the stars of heaven falling and doesn't appear near to 'Lucifer' which appears only in Isaiah 14..
This fragment comes from a quote of Jesus in the gospels "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven." in Luke 10. Its difficult to explain Jesus comment, so I'll just skip it. Milton is using poetic license. No harm done. Its an epic poem.
The NT writers say the serpent deceives people rather than that it tempts them, but its the same idea. Sin is considered to be deceitful, deceiving the sinner; so that could be the origin of the figure.
In Genesis it declares the Sun rules the day, and the moon and stars rule the night not the Morning Star which Lucifer's name translates to. When Isaiah uses this term 'Morning star' it should immediately bring to mind Venus, that twinkling light which only occasionally appears at twilight or early morning, soon to be obscured either by moon or sun. It appears only during transitions between day and night, in other words. Isaiah implies that this morning star person is only a blip that will soon be obscured and disappear.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Maybe this helps:
Fallen angel - Wikipedia
War in Heaven - Wikipedia
Lucifer - Wikipedia
Nobody using Wiki?
I agree completely... but not to forget that The Church, the Body of Christ, is establishing the reality that God has given us the power to tread on serpents and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy. So currently, there is the battle of the Kingdoms until Jesus comes.
We can be spiritually victorious to be counted as being one of the worthy figurative ' sheep ' at the soon coming time of separation as per Matthew 25:31-33,37.
I don't think I will be around for that time... but just in case, I am working and trusting that this is the victory that overcomes the world, even my faith.
Yes, none of us know if we will be around at the coming 'time of separation' at the time of Matthew 25:31-33,37.
And yes we can trust that we can ' endure to the end ' - Matthew 24:13
I think we are seeing the fulfillment of Luke 21:11.
Our time period could slip into the 'final-signal' time of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3
The powers that be will be saying, " Peace and Security..." but that will prove to be the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9.
With a bad economy the wealth $$$$$$$$$$ the false religions have amassed could be easy taking for the political. Even by using the banking systems.
I certainly see the foundation framework being constructed.
But until a Temple is under construction, it is still a "not yet".
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Since Christ, I find the ' temple ' is a spiritual temple and Not of stone, etc.
1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 is Not connected to any temple arrangement but connected to the powers that be.
The United Nation's ' radar ', so to speak, has trouble-filled religion in its sites.
The world's religions have created a hauntingly dangerous religious climate brewing in today's world.
Besides religious terrorism, I just heard on the news some Baptist minister wants to sue the government over social distancing.
With ZOOM available today there is No need to be physically present to have that interchange of encouragement with others - Hebrews 10:24-25
So, it will be No wonder that the political world will turn on the religious world.
With backing the U.N. can be strengthened to go up against the corrupted religions.
With a bad economy, the wealth the religions have amassed can look like easy taking for the political, even through the banking systems.