Exodus Archeology Evidence

[metis]

It is not desirable or even possible to simply shrug the exodus of as whatever happened, happened. We are into this thread only because the narrative of the Exodus is the rock bed on which the entire Jewish theology is based. If there was no exodus, if there was no manifestation of God's will, then the existence of God itself is brought into question. Therefore, let us apply our minds to the Exodus and where it may have happened instead of just dismissing it as an oral tradition which is not substantiated.

The basis of Judaism lies in Torah, which also applies to halacha [Jewish Law]. Jewish Law is not static, therefore interpretation and application can vary.

 

[Dimi95]

I don't think the Bible is outdated

Neither i have said such thing.

because that would stand against its value as an inspired text.

Yes , but the Bible is not without error.

Ultimately, at least I am interested in this topic only because the Bible is an inspired text and it carries weight with the consciousness of large numbers of people.

Good start , i like when people want to talk.

Therefore, while it is possible that certain parts of the Bible may have been redacted or may be incorrect but it is not good to reject the entire text because of these reasons.

I did not say such thing , i said outdated for Israel Finkelstein's book.

Archaeologists have tools to discover Bedouin habitations. The bigger problem is that the entire area from Sinai to Canaan or Israel was under the control of the Egyptians. So, it is inconceivable that they would cross the Red sea only to be trapped by the Egyptians on the other side.

The Exodus is not like that.
The primary source is the book of Exodus.

The whole thing simply does not make sense and we have to look for other venues which I am again suggesting is the Indus River where the Indus River forms a natural barrier.

What dating of the Exodus does not make sense? Have you looked up everything?

The Hebrews were coming from the east. They crossed the Indus Valley and went westward and once the Indus River was flowing, it formed a natural barrier that saved the Hebrews from pursued by the pharaohs.

Evidence or something that will suggest this hypothesis as probable.

 

[Tamino]

It is not desirable or even possible to simply shrug the exodus of as whatever happened, happened. We are into this thread only because the narrative of the Exodus is the rock bed on which the entire Jewish theology is based.

Speak for yourself.
I am in this thread because I 'm a nerd and I love Egyptology.

If there was no exodus, if there was no manifestation of God's will, then the existence of God itself is brought into question.

I have no stake in this question.
I don't really care if Yahweh exists or not.

 

[shunyadragon]

There are different views on whether there is evidence of Joshua's conquest or not. It is possible that there may have been small skirmishes between the Egyptians, Canaanites and the Hebrews and these have not been recorded by the host populations. That does not cancel the fact that the Bible does talk about these conquests, and unless proven otherwise, we should accept them as real. The fact that Hebrew language did not exist at that time is not relevant at all. It is well established that many religious traditions have been transmitted orally, and there is no reason to discredit them unless proven otherwise. Since absence of evidence is not the same as proof. Therefore, I think we should accept Joshua's conquest as real, irrespective of whether it is established by non-biblical sources or not.

You are arguing a classic "arguing from ignorance" making the argument that one has to prove something did not happen before it can be accepted that the evidence of the historical
events happened or not,

Appeal to Ignorance

This fallacy occurs when you argue that your conclusion must be true, because there is no evidence against it. This fallacy wrongly shifts the burden of proof away from the one making the claim.

Evidence documents that Minor conflicts between Hebrews, Canaanites, and Egyptians But the overwhelming archaeological and Egyptian records and other evidence demonstrates the the account as written in Exodus and Joshua is that these accounts do not have a basis in history.

We not only do not have absolutely no Hebrew languages, but absolutely no other records of the time of an invasion of Canaan by the army of Joshua. In fact no independent evidence that Joshua nor Moses ever existed as claimed in the Pentateuch.


Reformed Judaism is growing in recent history. It is widely accepted among reformed Jews that the Pentateuch is not a literal historically accurate document and the sciences of evolution is widely accepted,

--It is not desirable or even possible to simply shrug the exodus of as whatever happened, happened. We are into this thread only because the narrative of the Exodus is the rock bed on which the entire Jewish theology is based. If there was no exodus, if there was no manifestation of God's will, then the existence of God itself is brought into question. Therefore, let us apply our minds to the Exodus and where it may have happened instead of just dismissing it as an oral tradition which is not substantiated.

Exodus and the rest of the Pentateuch is snot simply shrugged off. There is over one hundred years of archaeological and scientific research published on the topic. The fact that ancient texts without provenance are foundation of 'traditional' Jewish beliefs, but this as with all ancient religions does not justify the religion alone. Religions by their nature are subjective beliefs based on faith and not factual history of ancient scriptures.

 

[Tamino]

Alright you don't seems do not understand my arguments at all.

No apparently not.

My main evidence I proposed Armana letters descriptions of conquest

Not my area of expertise, I don't read cuneiform, so I need to research this part a bit more.

and also Egyptians change into monotheism

Which, to clarify, you see Akhenaten's religious shift as a reaction to Exodus?

and not to mention mountai sinai and Jericho. I only briefly mentioned at the end of who would be pharaoh of exodus could be.This was never my main arguments

But it is a consequence. If you propose that the Exodus is a true historical account, you need to fit the Moses story into Egyptian history accordingly.

and you only focused truly on my end assumption instead of all my evidences.

I thought I was focusing solely on your evidence?

As a reward, the pharaoh appoints Joseph to a high-ranking position—Joseph becomes the pharaoh's second in command and has authority over the entire land of Egypt ( Genesis 41:40-46 ).

Yeah, the second in command is the Tjaty, the vizier. The Hyksos were - literally - the "rulers of foreign lands" , calling themselves nibtawy and nisoo, the titles of the Pharao.
There is a marked difference between a king handing administrative authority to a favored vassal, and those vassals taking over the country.

 

[shunyadragon]

The timing of the migration from Africa is about 160,000 years. The Biblical history of Exodus is dated to about 1500 BCE, so it is not fair to assume that the entire story of Exodus is from some earlier time about which we know nothing. There is no evidence of any exodus, any Pharaoh, and any parting of the water etc. in the migration from Africa. Instead of looking at such explanation, we should simply look at the evidence from the Indus Valley, where the parting of the Indus River provided a path to the Hebrews and the flow of the Indus River made a natural obstruction to the pursuit of the Pharaoh.

Actually the human migration out of Africa is documented as over 300,000 years ago.

It is documented that the Pentateuch was compiled after 600 BCE with no known texts dated earlier than 600 BCE.

There is absolutely no evidence for any such event in the Indus valley.

 

[Ajax]

I have heard a video by Israel Finkelstein. This hypothesis that the Hebrews emerged out of Canaan has become necessary only because there is no evidence for Exodus from Egypt. This hypothesis itself becomes unnecessary once we understand that the Exodus took place from the Indus Valley and there, we have enough evidence to establish it. So, relying upon secondary hypothesis such as that of Finkelstein, is not wise. While we ignore the primary evidence from the Indus Valley.

Well, the Exodus specifically states that the children of Israel wandered in Sinai for 40 years. If you dismiss this, you may as well dismiss the whole Exodus.

If there was no exodus, if there was no manifestation of God's will, then the existence of God itself is brought into question.

So, what's wrong with that? Aren't you looking for the nearest possible truth?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It is documented that the Pentateuch was compiled after 600 BCE with no known texts dated earlier than 600 BCE.

As too often repeated bravado, your mantra is a bit like a one-trick pony that had become somewhat disoriented as he aged. The first part of your sentence is just silly, while the last part of your sentence is quite possibly outdated.

Nevertheless, I agree that the Tanakh likely took form in the Second Temple period.

 

[shunyadragon]

As too often repeated bravado, your mantra is a bit like a one-trick pony that had become somewhat disoriented as he aged. The first part of your sentence is just silly, while the last part of your sentence is quite possibly outdated.

Nevertheless, I agree that the Tanakh likely took form in the Second Temple period.

Dumbphf insults are not a rational response,

We have sort been here before. and you failed provide references on the contrary. It not only took form it did not exist, and was compiled form older non-Hebrew sources and mixed with Hebrew traditional beliefs mainly from the Hebrews in exile melded with Hebrew beliefs in th eLevant..

References that my statement is outdated. I believe it is correct.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

References that my statement is outdated. I believe it is correct.

Sure.

A New Appraisal of the Silver Amulets from Ketef Hinnom​

​

by Nadav Na`aman; Israel Exploration Journal, Vol. 61, No. 2 (2011), pp 184-195 (12 pages)​

Na`aman argues ...

In sum, the archaeological and palaeographic data do not supply a firm date for the plaques; thus, the decision should be made on the basis of other considerations, in particular the orthographic data. In my opinion, the pre-exilic date for the plaques, originally suggested by Barkay and Yardeni and supported by the majority of scholars, cannot be maintained. Dating the plaques to the late sixth or early fifth century BCE is preferable, and is in keeping with all the available data.​

I've been interested in these "scrolls" ever since first seeing them.

 

[shunyadragon]

Sure.

A New Appraisal of the Silver Amulets from Ketef Hinnom​

​

by Nadav Na`aman; Israel Exploration Journal, Vol. 61, No. 2 (2011), pp 184-195 (12 pages)​

Na`aman argues ...

In sum, the archaeological and palaeographic data do not supply a firm date for the plaques; thus, the decision should be made on the basis of other considerations, in particular the orthographic data. In my opinion, the pre-exilic date for the plaques, originally suggested by Barkay and Yardeni and supported by the majority of scholars, cannot be maintained. Dating the plaques to the late sixth or early fifth century BCE is preferable, and is in keeping with all the available data.​

I've been interested in these "scrolls" ever since first seeing them.

The existence of the silver scrolls does not change anything.

Solving a Riddle Written in Silver (Published 2004)

Archaeological discovery in 1979 of amulet inscribed with Priestly Benediction appears to be earliest Biblical passage ever found on ancient artifact; date of amulet and confirmation of inscription have been questioned and updated technology has now enabled researchers associated with University...

www.nytimes.com

The Silver Scrolls, also known as the Ketef Hinnom scrolls, are believed to date from the late 7th or early 6th century BCE, which would place them in the First Temple period. The scrolls were discovered in 1979 by archaeologist Professor Gabriel Barkay during an excavation of ancient burial caves in southwest Jerusalem. The scrolls are made of 99% pure silver and are tiny, with the longest being only 9.5 cm long and 2.5 cm wide. They are the oldest-preserved passages of scripture ever discovered and are considered to be the earliest-known fragments of a biblical text. The scrolls contain a form of the priestly blessing, which includes the words "The Lord bless you and protect you".

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The existence of the silver scrolls does not change anything.

I didn't say it did. Keep up ...

 

[shunyadragon]

I didn't say it did. Keep up ...

The timeframe of the origin and compilation of the texts of the Pentateuch remain as I stated.

 

[River Sea]

Dr. Manfred Bietak, chief excavator of Tell el-Dab’a

Manfred Bietak | Austrian Academy of Sciences - Academia.edu

Manfred Bietak, Austrian Academy of Sciences: 3235 Followers, 105 Following, 117 Research papers. Research interests: Egyptology, Near Eastern Archaeology, and…

oeaw.academia.edu

Avaris/Tell el-Dab'a

This is an up-to-date account on the site of Tell el-Dab‘a, Ancient Avaris, Perunefer and the southern part of Piramesse. It was originally a 12th Dynasty planned settlement, an important harbour town, the capital of the 14th and 15th Dynasty with a

www.academia.edu

There are different views as to whether the word Apriu in the Egyptian text refers to Hebrews at all. What is more important is that the geography of Exodus does not match with Egypt and if that does not match then pushing the similarities of one word here or there does not overcome the disconnect with geography, archaeology and ethnography. Therefore, I think this reliance on a mention of Apiru in Amarna letters is not relevant. That said, I think the important point of Amarna letters is the mention of the word Misr. It is baffling for me that the Amarna letters, dated to about 14th century BCE mention Misr, which has no earlier mention in West Asia. So, where they got this Misr and why this word was used for Egypt is the matter that we need to study more. Thank you for your nice comment.

Pyramids built of mud-and-straw bricks (Exodus 5:7–8), and both written and physical evidence that Asiatic people were enslaved in Egypt.

@Mrpp
This is why I wonder about farming because plants use fiber to make straw. @Ehav4Ever was claiming shepherds. I actually think of both shepherds and farming. However, mud brinks only need 1% straw, while burnt-bake bricks need 50% straw. Yet at KMT. They built with stones, so there's no need for lots of straw.

There's a new exodus thread now
Exodus Archeology Evidence part 2 updated by @Mrpp

Exodus Archeology Evidence part 2 updated

First of all I wanted update Exodus evidence since I discover few more evidence for exodus and I made error in establishing chronology of who pharaoh of exodus. So this is updated version of 5 point and 6 and also common objection overruled. If you wanna read this thread read first prieviously...

www.religiousforums.com

 

[Mrpp]

Read again please...with your glasses on this time.
"In the el-Amarna letters, which are dated a century before, we are told that a unit of fifty Egyptian soldiers was big enough to pacify unrest in Canaan."
Did I mention Israel anywhere?
No I haven't read them, but I believe that a team of reputable archaeologists, historians and scholars of biblical archaeology would not write BS.
Perhaps you omitted this, the same as you thought I had written Israel.

The Merneptah Stele which was created on about 1208 BCE, contains the first extrabiblical mentioning of Israel and confirms that Israelites were living in Canaan together with the Canaanites.

Learn to read first before embarrasing yourself on internet. First of all explain me how would small number of bandits would take multiple cities. Especially when next pharaoh had to reastablish control over those settlements. Explain why letters say all kings lands are lost beacuse you can't. So Joshua conquest wasn't only unrest there probably just squashed some small problem. Again you cherrypicking only letters you want instead doing science and focus on all letters. Many archeologists and historians would dissagre with that and thinks beacuse of evidence that it was not some small unrest but all lands were lost.
In EA 288, Jerusalem’s mayor once again beseeches the pharaoh. Note the description of the far-reaching extent of the Habiru’s conquests: “May the king give thought to his land; the land of the king is lost. All of it has attacked me. … I am situated like a ship in the midst of the sea …. [N]ow the Habiru have taken the very cities of the king. Not a single mayor remains to the king, my lord; all are lost” (emphasis added). learn to read Also Merneptah stele prooves they were establish there did you even know what it is?

 

[Mrpp]

Your entire post is about similarities in narratives. Such narratives can be found perhaps in Sumer, Indus Valley, China and other places. Also, what is required is that we need to establish that the match with Egypt is better than the other civilizations and I once again request you that please look at the geographical and archaeological evidences and do not rely only on the narratives such as slavery. The Bible uses the word slavery in this, which also means oppression. So, it is possible that if the Pharaoh had reduced the wages, then that could be taken as slavery. Furthermore, the Bible itself says that this was only the slavery was restricted only to one king. It was not a long-term affair, as it is often depicted. So, basically instead of looking at narratives, we have to look at geography, archaeology, etymology, ethnography, and other dimensions of evidence which simply do not match with Egypt. I am at a loss how to explain to you that the problem is that we do not have these evidences from Egypt. Hence, mainly relying on certain parallel narratives does not help.

It is not just based on similarites but based on dates and perticular events. Things like sudden invasion of Caanan, change into single god or abandonment doesn't happens always happen. And fact that they happened specifically when Exodus is around dated clearly prooves it did happened. Again if you read armana letters you will find out that it was not small group of rebels but big army. Small number would not be able to capture multiple cities. And caanan would not be full lost to Pharaoh.

 

[Mrpp]

No apparently not.

Not my area of expertise, I don't read cuneiform, so I need to research this part a bit more.

Which, to clarify, you see Akhenaten's religious shift as a reaction to Exodus?

But it is a consequence. If you propose that the Exodus is a true historical account, you need to fit the Moses story into Egyptian history accordingly.

I thought I was focusing solely on your evidence?

Yeah, the second in command is the Tjaty, the vizier. The Hyksos were - literally - the "rulers of foreign lands" , calling themselves nibtawy and nisoo, the titles of the Pharao.
There is a marked difference between a king handing administrative authority to a favored vassal, and those vassals taking over the country.

If you don't understand what I am writing then you shouldn't write at all. I will try be as simple as I can. Armana leeters gives description of Joshua conquest and so gives us evidence for his invasion. Suddenly change into Idea one God (with similarities) gives evidence for such interaction beetwen Israel and Egypt. Like think for moment how would Egyptians react to such event. There would be massive change in their beliefs and that exactly what happened. Egyptians specifically said they wittnesed. You didn't focus on my evidence just barely scratched surface on my end assumption on who Exodus pharaoh could be. Second command is still high in command and just beacuse they don't mention something doesn't mean anything. Diffrent writers have diffrent priorities.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Google “Archaeologist Titus Kennedy”; he’s got some good info.

 

[Ajax]

Learn to read first before embarrasing yourself on internet. First of all explain me how would small number of bandits would take multiple cities. Especially when next pharaoh had to reastablish control over those settlements. Explain why letters say all kings lands are lost beacuse you can't. So Joshua conquest wasn't only unrest there probably just squashed some small problem. Again you cherrypicking only letters you want instead doing science and focus on all letters. Many archeologists and historians would dissagre with that and thinks beacuse of evidence that it was not some small unrest but all lands were lost.
In EA 288, Jerusalem’s mayor once again beseeches the pharaoh. Note the description of the far-reaching extent of the Habiru’s conquests: “May the king give thought to his land; the land of the king is lost. All of it has attacked me. … I am situated like a ship in the midst of the sea …. [N]ow the Habiru have taken the very cities of the king. Not a single mayor remains to the king, my lord; all are lost” (emphasis added). learn to read Also Merneptah stele prooves they were establish there did you even know what it is?

I don't understand what your point is and neither your hostile attitude. If you want to prove that Exodus, as described in the Bible did happen, you have to try much, much harder.
The Pentateuch was written during the Second Temple period.

Modern scholarship considers that the Israelites emerged from groups of indigenous Canaanites and other peoples....Efforts to confirm the biblical ethnogenesis of Israel through archaeology has largely been abandoned as unproductive. Many scholars see the traditional narratives as national myths with little historical value, but some posit that a small group of exiled Egyptians contributed to the Exodus narrative....The Israelites used the Canaanite script and communicated in a Canaanite language known as Biblical Hebrew. The language's modern descendant, modern Hebrew, is today the only surviving dialect of the Canaanite languages....Gary Rendsburg argues that some archaic biblical traditions and other circumstantial evidence point to the Israelites emerging from the Shasu and other seminomadic peoples from the desert regions south of the Levant, later settling in the highlands of Canaan. Israelites - Wikipedia

Armana leeters gives description of Joshua conquest and so gives us evidence for his invasion

1) No, they don't. They do not name Joshua, neither Israel, as Merneptah stele does. Habiru were not Israelites/Hebrew. The academic consensus is well established that Apiru/Habiru and Hebrews represent two different groups.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

So maybe that's because it didn't happen at all?

But Tamino, it is as much your speculation that it didn't happen at all. My point is that the Hindu texts do talk about Krishna going away to an unknown country. Hence, there is evidence in Indus Valley and none in Egypt.

So, you are following a 1st century Jew, who's quoting a 4th century BC Greek about the Bronze Age origin of a people?
I might do that if there is absolutely no contemporary sources or archaeological evidence. But we have plenty of evidence and it all points to a local origin in the Levant.

I don't think there is plenty of evidence that there was local origin of the exodus in the Levant. This local origin theory has been developed only because we have not found evidence of Exodus in Egypt. If we look for evidence of exodus from the Indus Valley, then the Exodus is established historically and there is no need to look for a local origin. Furthermore, if we consider local origin, then there is no need for crossing of the sea. There is no need for God's intervention to help them cross the sea and there is no explanation for the plates. There are so many contradictions that it just does not gel.

I am not following first century Jew. I am only saying that there is an undercurrent in the Western literature that the Jews are from India and that requires us to look at this hypothesis more seriously.

So a small bit of some genes is similar to a small bit of some Indians? That just proves that humans are a mixed batch

The difference is that RM-124 is found in 50 to 100% of the Indians in northeast India and it is also found in large number of Ashkenazi Jews. So, the question is where did it enter from? And we cannot simply escape this problem by saying that they are mixed batch. Of course, the humans are a mixed batch, but the task is to unravel that mixedness and find out where this RM-124 got in.

Possible. But not like that was a huge migration movement and the main origin of the Jewish people or we'd expect some MORE evidence than a random strand of genes

I agree with you that there was most likely no huge migration movement. The figure in of 605,000, for example, may have only 605 persons with thousands as a hyperbola. We do find more evidence of exodus from the Indus Valley in terms of the Taftan volcano, crossing of the Indus River and others that I do not want to repeat here. I am attaching a video RM-124 gene that I have posted elsewhere, and this will give you more evidence on this point.

But there are some loan words, and both languages fit into the Afro-Asiatic language family . What similarities do you present to Indian languages?

I cannot provide you reply in terms of loanwords, because the Indus Valley language has not been deciphered, but I am providing list of 24 proper names which are found in the same genealogical sequence as in the biblical genealogy. So, the curiosity is, that not only the names are found, but they are found in the same genealogical sequence, which indicates that this must have been from the same event.

"Imply possible connections"? Cute. At the same time, we now have plenty of evidence for the origins of the Hebrew alphabet, tracing the development back to Semitic miners in the Sinai region who adapted Egyptian hieroglyphs to make an alphabet. See "Proto-Sinaitic"

There is no evidence whatsoever that Semitic miners created a language because there were no Semitic miners in Sinai at all. The whole idea flies into the face because the Sinai and Canaan were under the control of the Egyptians, and if Semitic miners had been mining in Egypt, they would have been oppressed by the Egyptians as easily as they oppress the others.

Remind me again... How many cultures around the globe came up with the idea to mix clay with plant fiber for building materials?
The answer is: most of them.

Indeed, you are right that mud bricks are made everywhere, but the question is that the conflict with the Pharaoh was regarding collection of straw and straw constitutes a very small part of the manufacture of mud bricks, but it constitutes 50% of the cost of baked bricks. Hence, it is more likely that the conflict on straw was in an area where baked bricks was used, which was in the Indus Valley.

Let me get this straight: you equate a drought of the Yamuna with the Nile turning to blood? By that principle, what would keep me from equating the first plague with any random event with any large body of water? Algae blooms, mud floods, rivers poisoned by volcanic activity... there are plenty of things that can happen with rivers.

You got me wrong. I am equating the Yamuna with the Hakkara river, which does not flow now, but the dead course of which can be traced. This was flowing to the east of the Indus and it stops flowing around 1900 to 1500 BCE and turned into pools and that is why the Bible says that it turned into blood.

A love story and a cow? Again - are there true connections or just superficial similarities that can be found in plenty of stories ?

You got it wrong, my friend. The question is that how do we find exact parallel stories? The question is not whether it is a cow or not. The question is why do we have exact parallels in these stories, in the Hindu texts and the Bible, where there is nothing similar in the Egyptian texts. So, we have to look dispassionately at the evidence rather than come from the Egyptian angle.

Names like Manu?

You cannot pick up one name and dismiss the 21. Why don't you read the all 21 names and look at the Hindu parallels, and show me where you find similar parallel names in the Egyptian literature.

There's a lot of water and mountains on this world. I'm sure we can plot a lot of travel routes on this globe that will lead from a big river, through a lagoon or shallow lake, to a mountain and the into a desert...

I beg to disagree with you. You cannot plot a number of travel routes on this globe from a big river to Israel. Please do provide me 2 or 3 such alternatives and then we will discuss.

I conclude that the evidence for your hypothesis is largely circumstantial. You are drawing connections from superficial similarities while dismissing all the very solid archaeology and evidence that links early Hebrew tribes to their Middle-Eastern Homeland.

I'm aghast! See, the point is that you have to make a comparative study. Take the 22 names. If you have 40 parallel names in Egypt and 22 names in Indus Valley, then it would make sense to say that exodus took place from Egypt. But you are asking for absolute evidence from Indus Valley. While there is zero evidence in Egypt. So, you have to make a comparative study and comparatively see which is more fitting the circumstances.