Exodus: Safety of Slavery vs Freedom

[Kenny]

Could this be today's problem?

Exodus 16 And they took their journey from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Israel came unto the wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt. 2 And the whole congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness: 3 And the children of Israel said unto them, Would to God we had died by the hand of the Lord in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the flesh pots, and when we did eat bread to the full; for ye have brought us forth into this wilderness, to kill this whole assembly with hunger.

Not long before this was the statement:

Exodus 3:7 And the Lord said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;

Basically God sent Moses because of their "cry" for being underpaid slave labor and afterward, with liberty, they start complaining and wishing they had the security of slavery over the responsibility of freedom.

IMV

Yes, they had a measure of security in Egypt, but was that life and living? They had a home, they had some food... but all at the cost of freedom and the responsibilities that come thereof.

What are your thoughts?

Other interesting points...

This came out of fear of dying. The voice of fear is complaining.

1. Complaining distorts reality
2. Complaining ends up directing their fear on other people
3. Complaining seems to have a point of rational thinking (there was a reasonable foundation for their complaint)
4. But reason limits God's capacity or, if you so desire, human capacity to overcome

Most any time (though not all) you relinquish your freedom for security - you end up with distorted living.

Thoughts?

 

[AlexanderG]

I'm not sure how being a slave would feel "secure." You could be beaten at any time, sexually accosted, or starved, killed, or sold off to some new owner.

I think it's human nature to always think about how our circumstances could be better, and "complaining" is one form of that. Generations of dissatisfaction is why we have all the improvements today that we see around us. The abolition of slavery is one of those improvements.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Most any time (though not all) you relinquish your freedom for security - you end up with distorted living.

If you want to have a distorted reality of things. Sometimes submission can be a survival thing. And the case of Exodus, it was out of the frying pan onto the flames of wondering to desert for a very long time.
Sometimes it can be a distorted view, such as how Christians have a big long list of things they aren't supposes to do, most of which are harmless human things, amd then claim it's freedom despite a repressive set of rules.
There's also a psychological aspect behind it, and that is too many choices and too much freedom actually tends to make decisions and actions harder to chose from.

 

[sun rise]

From the POV of the OP, those in bondage to people who act from selfish motives is to be opposed and ended and a few crusts of bread is no reward.

We don't have to look at the Egypt story to understand what that slavery feels like - we can look at slavery in America (in spite of those who are trying to suppress that terrible history).

But if we look at the condition of a slave, being trapped with no choice, we have to look at both the positive and negative of freedom. Some consider it a mark of freedom to abandon a spouse and children and all the responsibilities of life in the name of escaping to what they consider "freedom". This leads to the Buddhist conception of being a slave to one's lower nature.

But there's another kind of what has been called "slavery" but of a different kind. There's a quote from that great Islamic sufi Hafiz that applies but needs to be understood. The Master here is the perfect one whose "commands" or "commandments" are divine. There is safety in being such a slave compared to the "freedom" to follow one's whims.

“Befitting a fortunate slave, carry out every command of the Master without any question of why or what.

About what you hear from the Master, never say it is wrong, because, my dear, the fault lies in your own incapacity to understand him.

I am the slave of the Master Who has released me from ignorance. Whatever my Master does is of the highest benefit to all concerned.”

 

[F1fan]

Could this be today's problem?

Exodus 16 And they took their journey from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Israel came unto the wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt. 2 And the whole congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness: 3 And the children of Israel said unto them, Would to God we had died by the hand of the Lord in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the flesh pots, and when we did eat bread to the full; for ye have brought us forth into this wilderness, to kill this whole assembly with hunger.

Not long before this was the statement:

Exodus 3:7 And the Lord said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;

Basically God sent Moses because of their "cry" for being underpaid slave labor and afterward, with liberty, they start complaining and wishing they had the security of slavery over the responsibility of freedom.

IMV

Yes, they had a measure of security in Egypt, but was that life and living? They had a home, they had some food... but all at the cost of freedom and the responsibilities that come thereof.

What are your thoughts?

Other interesting points...

This came out of fear of dying. The voice of fear is complaining.

1. Complaining distorts reality
2. Complaining ends up directing their fear on other people
3. Complaining seems to have a point of rational thinking (there was a reasonable foundation for their complaint)
4. But reason limits God's capacity or, if you so desire, human capacity to overcome

Most any time (though not all) you relinquish your freedom for security - you end up with distorted living.

Thoughts?

This can be an ironic metaphor for religion. We can see many adhere to the security of religion versus being responsible for one's own moral sense and meaning in life. It is vastly easier to adopt a set standard of rules and authority than work out these for the self. Religions were an early form of law and order, complete with laws that govern social behaviors. As time has progressed secular governments took over and religion became a social phemonenon, for tribal unity and meaning through alliance.

So the question is: is strict religion today's problem, as what use is religion to individuals? Do they remain in a prison of strict rules under an authority of an absent God, or seek their freedom from religion and find meaning and a personal moral authority?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

From the POV of the OP, those in bondage to people who act from selfish motives is to be opposed and ended and a few crusts of bread is no reward.

We don't have to look at the Egypt story to understand what that slavery feels like - we can look at slavery in America (in spite of those who are trying to suppress that terrible history).

But if we look at the condition of a slave, being trapped with no choice, we have to look at both the positive and negative of freedom. Some consider it a mark of freedom to abandon a spouse and children and all the responsibilities of life in the name of escaping to what they consider "freedom". This leads to the Buddhist conception of being a slave to one's lower nature.

But there's another kind of what has been called "slavery" but of a different kind. There's a quote from that great Islamic sufi Hafiz that applies but needs to be understood. The Master here is the perfect one whose "commands" or "commandments" are divine. There is safety in being such a slave compared to the "freedom" to follow one's whims.

“Befitting a fortunate slave, carry out every command of the Master without any question of why or what.

About what you hear from the Master, never say it is wrong, because, my dear, the fault lies in your own incapacity to understand him.

I am the slave of the Master Who has released me from ignorance. Whatever my Master does is of the highest benefit to all concerned.”

And then we have Saint Paul who told slaves to serve their master as though they are serving their lord, and be especially good if their master is also a Christian.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Most any time (though not all) you relinquish your freedom for security - you end up with distorted living.

There are times when sacrificing freedom for security is overall not in your best interest but I also think that people can take that quote a little too extreme. Forming a society at all requires sacrificing some freedoms (penultimate individualism) for the security of social laws and protections.
Being a hermit has its own share of risks and you can't have your cake and eat it too. And there are definitely days where I wouod trade the hyper individualism of the US for the collectivism of Japan.

Being in a group or really any relationship requires some vulnerability. Everyone will just have to make the judgement for themselves whether that vulnerability is worth it.

 

[Kenny]

This can be an ironic metaphor for religion. We can see many adhere to the security of religion versus being responsible for one's own moral sense and meaning in life. It is vastly easier to adopt a set standard of rules and authority than work out these for the self. Religions were an early form of law and order, complete with laws that govern social behaviors. As time has progressed secular governments took over and religion became a social phemonenon, for tribal unity and meaning through alliance.

So the question is: is strict religion today's problem, as what use is religion to individuals? Do they remain in a prison of strict rules under an authority of an absent God, or seek their freedom from religion and find meaning and a personal moral authority?

You could... but not necessarily so. You could be an atheist and still fall under the quote that I made

 

[Brickjectivity]

"...You first taught us to shake off our idolatrous Attachment to Royalty, and to oppose its incroachments upon our liberties with our very lives. By these means you saved us from ruin. The Independance of america is the Offspring of that liberal Spirit of thinking, and acting which followed the destruction of the Spectres of kings and the mighty power of Great Britain..." -- Patrick Henry writing to George Washington
Founders Online: To George Washington from Patrick Henry, 20 February 1778
​

Notice here that Patrick points out the idolatry of following a king. That is not merely a turn of phrase to him but is an exegesis.

 

[Father Heathen]

"Today's problem"? Who do you feel is choosing slavery over freedom?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

"Today's problem"? Who do you feel is choosing slavery over freedom?

Seeing how the OP is the pastor of a church that stayed open through the pandemic, I'm guessing the subtext here is about public health measures.

I'll leave it to the OP to clarify whether any of the "slavery" he's complaining about is the obligation of responsibility to others.

 

[Father Heathen]

Seeing how the OP is the pastor of a church that stayed open through the pandemic, I'm guessing the subtext here is about public health measures.

I'll leave it to the OP to clarify whether any of the "slavery" he's complaining about is the obligation of responsibility to others.

Then by his logic speed limits, stop signs, and traffic lights are slavery.

I hope no members of his congregation died from covid, especially if it could've been easily prevented. I would hate to have that on my conscience.