Explain No-thing = Some-thing

[Polymath257]

So there is no such thing as nothing.

I agree with that. Nothing does not exist.

So we are in agreement also that something is eternal. Without a doubt. Science, that is observational experience has shown that the universe did indeed have a beginning, it is not eternal, or forever expanding. If that was the case we would not be able to define that the universe is expanding or that it is 93 billion light years across. This is much less than forever expanding and eternal universe.

I don't see why the non-existence of nothing implies that something is eternal.

But I see it as likely that time itself is not eternal. Time and the universe are simply co-existent.

 

[Altfish]

Ok. I understand that.

Now, to make the assertion that God is "worthless" as scientific is also pseudoscience. As there is no observable evidence of how the universe came to be or what caused it.

To say you know God didn't cause it is also false. Because you do not know that. And science cannot state it. If you make that statement it is metaphysical in nature.

It is interesting that the word science as the study of things is a recent invention. Isaac Newton was not even referred to as a scientist. He was known as a natural philosopher. And that is I believe a more accurate definition of the profession.

Isn't much of science today really just philosophy disguising itself as supposed known facts that are not known at all? ETA: I should state that I am referring to the existence of things and how we came to be.

I go off the available evidence; there is no evidence for god.
Man has inserted god as an explanation for the primitive tribes that existed at the time.

The fact that Newton was not referred to as a scientist is a red herring; science as we today know it only really started when the 'scientific method' was agreed on

 

[Altfish]

Ready to know ? Okay.
First tell me, how much time can you spend on knowing ?

Limited, but maybe it was not god, but fairies that did it or the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Zeus

I and countless others have searched for god(s) and no one has found one. Fame, Nobel Prizes and a fortune awaits whoever can find these gods - I'm not holding my breath

 

[Wandering Monk]

I guess some folks are uncomfortable with 'I don't know.' Instead we get 'I don't know, so I know.'

 

[Brickjectivity]

The philosophy underpinning science makes sense precisely because it does not rely on supernatural assumptions.

Yes, and although the honesty of individual scientists may be questionable, the current peer review system is mostly solid. You can't rely on it to always be so. Sometimes corporate claims or political claims are packaged as Science when they are not, and it takes time for courageous scientists to notice, to speak out sometimes risking their careers in doing so. On the other side sometimes there are scientists who become quacks, and it takes a Scientist to know one.

The scientific process is strong. There is no doubt in my mind that the theory of the big bang strongly explains the evidence that Astronomers have. I think its unfair and unfortunate that so much of the public discredits this, but it simply fallout from the Soviet era and the US response to that which was both political and religious in scope.

The USSR tried to make Science out to be anti-religious, which claim energized some creationists during the Soviet period. The soviets did claim that they could disprove God. They had their astronauts pose as antireligious, their scientists and schools systems and so forth. This was a political failure and did not result in the social uniformity sought for, however it resulted in a lot of suspicion about Science and about evolutionary theory.

It was during the Soviet period that Henry Morris wrote The Genesis Flood, which supercharged pseudo scientific creationism in the USA the old cold war opponent of the USSR. I infer that part of the reason for the strong support of creationism in our country is because of the USSR and the US government attempts to fend off its Marxist call.

Stephen Hawking, a theoretical physicist, said: "Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing."...

He's famous because he's an astonishing individual. He's like Joni Mitchel rolled together with Isaac Newton. His honesty is refreshing even though towards the end of his life he starts making some questionable sound bytes about aliens, AI robots destroying humankind etc. Over his career he changes his mind about some things, and goes in other directions. He's the world's biggest Madonna fan. He is a solid Mathematician in Astronomy and Theoretical Physics as well as a courageous person living with a frightening disability.

 

[chinu]

Limited, but maybe it was not god, but fairies that did it or the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Zeus

I and countless others have searched for god(s) and no one has found one. Fame, Nobel Prizes and a fortune awaits whoever can find these gods - I'm not holding my breath

Then why you said..

I then want to know, "Where did God come from?"

 

[epronovost]

Science, that is observational experience has shown that the universe did indeed have a beginning, it is not eternal, or forever expanding. If that was the case we would not be able to define that the universe is expanding or that it is 93 billion light years across. This is much less than forever expanding and eternal universe.

Technically, the observable universe has a beginning. That doesn't mean the universe itself has one.

 

[epronovost]

He used the word nothing. The definition to the word "nothing" is:

"Nothing", used as a pronoun subject, is the absence of a something or particular thing that one might expect or desire to be present or the inactivity of a thing or things that are usually or could be active. As a predicate or complement "nothing" is the absence of meaning, value, worth, relevance, standing, or significance.

Further definitions of the word nothing:

as a pronoun:

not any thing : no thing
no part

As a noun:
something that does not exist
the absence of all magnitude or quantity

The word does not seem to be inaccurate. It accurately depicts something that does not exist. That is not any thing, that is no thing.

How do you know is usage of the word "nothing" is one of the common usage or that he didn't use it as a rethorical device? That's the problem of "quote mining" we don't have the context nor the references to properly understand the quotes since we lack information.

 

[ChristineM]

I guess some folks are uncomfortable with 'I don't know.' Instead we get 'I don't know, so I know.'

Seems more like "I don't know so god did it"

 

[Nakosis]

Stephen Hawking, a theoretical physicist, said: "Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing."

Because there is something, that is, the law of gravity, then the universe can and will come from nothing. Now firstly Hawking asserts the existence of something, and because of that existence this is proof that the universe can and will create itself out of nothing.

This was one of the world's leading scientists.

The word science comes from Latin "scientia," which means knowledge. The words knowledge and science are synonyms. Knowledge is facts, truths, realities that is acquired by observation and personal experience.

The statement quoted above is known as a paradox. A synonym of paradox is contradiction, or nonsense.

When a statement such as "something pretty mysterious had to give rise to the origin of the universe" and that that "something" is "literally nothing" we are equating something with nothing.

Now if we say that x creates y we presuppose that x already exists. If we say x creates x we have created a paradox, or a contradiction, or nonsense. The so-called "pull yourself up by your bootstraps." That is where a man is going to pull himself up by pulling on his own bootstraps.

So to those that adhere to the teachings of scientists such as Hawking. How is it that No-thing = Some-thing?

I suspect he meant no physical thing. Forces, like gravity, are not a physical things but we know of it because of their effects on physical things.

Perhaps God is not a physical thing, maybe God is just a force. Forces, which I suppose always existed caused physical things to be created.

 

[sayak83]

Stephen Hawking, a theoretical physicist, said: "Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing."

Because there is something, that is, the law of gravity, then the universe can and will come from nothing. Now firstly Hawking asserts the existence of something, and because of that existence this is proof that the universe can and will create itself out of nothing.

This was one of the world's leading scientists.

The word science comes from Latin "scientia," which means knowledge. The words knowledge and science are synonyms. Knowledge is facts, truths, realities that is acquired by observation and personal experience.

The statement quoted above is known as a paradox. A synonym of paradox is contradiction, or nonsense.

When a statement such as "something pretty mysterious had to give rise to the origin of the universe" and that that "something" is "literally nothing" we are equating something with nothing.

Now if we say that x creates y we presuppose that x already exists. If we say x creates x we have created a paradox, or a contradiction, or nonsense. The so-called "pull yourself up by your bootstraps." That is where a man is going to pull himself up by pulling on his own bootstraps.

So to those that adhere to the teachings of scientists such as Hawking. How is it that No-thing = Some-thing?

Hawking's recent popular science books are not clear in its content... probably because he had little control on its content and language stemming from his disability. You should read better books on the topic.

 

[`mud]

When was there a `time` when there was no `now`

 

[PureX]

He's famous because he's an astonishing individual. He's like Joni Mitchel rolled together with Isaac Newton. His honesty is refreshing even though towards the end of his life he starts making some questionable sound bytes about aliens, AI robots destroying humankind etc. Over his career he changes his mind about some things, and goes in other directions. He's the world's biggest Madonna fan. He is a solid Mathematician in Astronomy and Theoretical Physics as well as a courageous person living with a frightening disability.

It's being a Madonna fan that's truly unforgivable. And it only exemplifies how damaging to one's humanity science can be when one foolishly presumes it to be the pathway to all 'pertinent' truth.

 

[PureX]

When was there a `time` when there was no `now`

"Now" only exists juxtaposed to "then". And both are resultant of the way the human mind thinks (compare/contrast). Neither of those proposed 'states' actually exist outside of human perception.

 

[exchemist]

Stephen Hawking, a theoretical physicist, said: "Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing."

Because there is something, that is, the law of gravity, then the universe can and will come from nothing. Now firstly Hawking asserts the existence of something, and because of that existence this is proof that the universe can and will create itself out of nothing.

This was one of the world's leading scientists.

The word science comes from Latin "scientia," which means knowledge. The words knowledge and science are synonyms. Knowledge is facts, truths, realities that is acquired by observation and personal experience.

The statement quoted above is known as a paradox. A synonym of paradox is contradiction, or nonsense.

When a statement such as "something pretty mysterious had to give rise to the origin of the universe" and that that "something" is "literally nothing" we are equating something with nothing.

Now if we say that x creates y we presuppose that x already exists. If we say x creates x we have created a paradox, or a contradiction, or nonsense. The so-called "pull yourself up by your bootstraps." That is where a man is going to pull himself up by pulling on his own bootstraps.

So to those that adhere to the teachings of scientists such as Hawking. How is it that No-thing = Some-thing?

Yes I think you are onto something.

Hawking, I presume, was alluding to this idea that the +ve rest energy of matter and the -ve energy of gravitational potential may balance one another exactly, so you can envisage a zero energy initial condition (= "nothing") giving rise to matter and gravitating mass, without violating conservation of energy, i.e. it still adds up to zero.

But as you observe, to make this work he needs gravitation and the other "laws" of nature to be operating.

To some of us, if there is a God then the essence of creation seems to lie in these laws (or the order in nature they represent), rather than in what happens to matter under their influence. Einstein, I understand, followed Spinoza in thinking that God is the universe and its laws.

 

[Altfish]

Then why you said..

You have my quotes in the wrong order (IIRC) but they are not contradictory, both ask the same basic question, "Why believe in God" .

 

[halbhh]

Stephen Hawking, a theoretical physicist, said: "Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing."

Because there is something, that is, the law of gravity, then the universe can and will come from nothing. Now firstly Hawking asserts the existence of something, and because of that existence this is proof that the universe can and will create itself out of nothing.

This was one of the world's leading scientists.

The word science comes from Latin "scientia," which means knowledge. The words knowledge and science are synonyms. Knowledge is facts, truths, realities that is acquired by observation and personal experience.

The statement quoted above is known as a paradox. A synonym of paradox is contradiction, or nonsense.

When a statement such as "something pretty mysterious had to give rise to the origin of the universe" and that that "something" is "literally nothing" we are equating something with nothing.

Now if we say that x creates y we presuppose that x already exists. If we say x creates x we have created a paradox, or a contradiction, or nonsense. The so-called "pull yourself up by your bootstraps." That is where a man is going to pull himself up by pulling on his own bootstraps.

So to those that adhere to the teachings of scientists such as Hawking. How is it that No-thing = Some-thing?

Yes, it takes a certain willingness...to get past the mere fact that something fundamental is newly understood, even such as the origin of this particular universe (some future day being more confidently pinned down), such as possibly out of a vast number of universes (whether by 'eternal inflation' or whatever), to...

...still the same question, the real one: Why does anything exist, at all, instead of nothing?

When it's possible to naively think (or...dogmatically believe) that when physics well explains some future day more of how this Universe arose, then the question has been answered.

You could say, everyone has a faith of some kind, as it were.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

Scientists ≠ Philosophers

Just as Theologians ≠ Geologians (see Genesis)

For a serious philosophical argument.

Not that any of you guys will take it seriously, because most of you "know about science." :scoff:

Hawking apparently believes in ontological pluralism (that is, reality is literally different from person to person). This is crazy.

If you're not in the mood for this, there is also showtunes. Sound of Music, "Nothing comes from nothing, nothing ever could." That's right, disproven by showtunes.

 

[Eyes to See]

Ok scientifically prove either.

Scientific observation has shown that it is impossible to make something appear from nothing.

If you've noticed, several people here have tried to state that Hawking was stating nothing isn't really nothing. Some even saying that the English language is faulty when it comes to the word nothing. Now Hawking was a pretty astute individual. You would think he wouldn't have problems stating what he wanted to, or use incorrect words, or words in English that just are not good. Some state that he didn't mean that the universe came from nothing, but nothing physical, that is something, but that something just isn't matter.

But when Hawking stated that gravity is, he shows he understands English and is not confusing gravity with nothing. That is Hawking was not equating gravity with nothing. g = no-thing. If gravity is, then that means gravity is not not. Gravity is something. Even if it is not material. Where did gravity come from?

The information in DNA is programmed. It is extremely detailed information that not only is coded but is coded to transcribe itself. No where in real life has programmed data ever been observed to both program itself and transcribe itself. Real life experience tells us that an intelligence is behind the data.

Let me explain it this way. The forward slash / has no meaning unless an intelligence proscribes a meaning to it. It is used in computer programming for various functions. But it is a function only because intelligence already proscribes that it is to have that function. The same is true with A T C and G.

Morse code uses a dash and a dot to represent every single letter in the English alphabet. Now A T C G are four functions, not just two. They can just as easily represent a higher form of language used to code life. No one looking at a series of dashes and dots in Morse code that understands it would assume that the information programmed in it came from nothing, or that the language it represents programmed itself.

 

[oldbadger]

Stephen Hawking, a theoretical physicist, said: "Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing."

Then it would be best to listen to and consider his words with care.

This was one of the world's leading scientists.

Still is........... his words survive his body.

So to those that adhere to the teachings of scientists such as Hawking. How is it that No-thing = Some-thing?

You're half-way there already!
Teachings.......... Hawking's words were 'Teachings'.
Hawking ......... a Prophet.

One sentence from Stephen Hawking is worth a whole letter from Apostle Paul, imo.