Explaining negativity towards Muslims and/or Islam?

[Mock Turtle]

The West is just stuck in dualism, it thinks that itself is God and that the East is Satan. It's a veiled supremacist attitude.
It doesn't help that there are so many disinfo and defamation campaigns against Islam, very much a money-making business at the moment.
It only gets worse when a large majority of things used to slander Islam aren't even to do with Islam directly, such as supposed "apostasy laws". So ridiculous.

I don't know where the answer might lie but perhaps one of the reasons is that the countries that tend to make the news with regards having a large Muslim population, countries like Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc., are often not seen as having that much in common with the Western countries where views of Muslims might not be so favourable. Other countries having large Muslim populations, such as Indonesia, Malaysia, and many African countries, just don't seem to make the news that much so as to balance out anything seemingly negative.

 

[Mindmaster]

Negativity towards a group as a whole is usually never factually based, but one might understand why Islam and Muslims are so often perceived in certain ways. In the past, much the same has happened to other religious beliefs, and currently it is Islam in the spotlight.

It's not my business, it's Allah's to sort out.

But, that being said, I find many of the Muslims engaged conduct that I find repugnant and there is no excuse that is adequate. The impression is created by their own vices, to some extent, and that is on them to rectify. There is no excuse for violence, none, not ever, regardless of the reason.

Muslims are much like Christianity with tons of denominations under the umbrella of the term, and I don't mix them up. (or, at least I try not to) But, there are those making trouble and those turning their eyes so long as it suits them. (at least that is my impression) They have a duty to police their faith and keep it good as all folks who participate in religion do. I'm not seeing much of this, so if I were to have one overall complaint with the Muslims as a whole it would be along this line.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Well, I can do that, which you pointed out by looking at how, it is in Denmark. We don't have a problem with humans. We have a "problem" with certain sub-cultures regardless of religion as such. Now right now, yes, certain sub-groups of Muslims are in the news as negative news. But if you look closer it is never per se about the religion and it always involve the problem of the "other". In the end it is psychology in part as it is as much not just what is done, but also how it is viewed upon.

Not sure what it is like in Denmark, but here in the UK we have many places with quite large Muslim communities. In some they they will appear to be of a more fundamentalist faith, the females wearing burqas or niqabs, whilst in others they will likely not be noticeable so much, and a headscarf might be all that distinguishes them as being Muslim. Do you think this has any bearing upon how they might be perceived?

 

[EsonauticSage]

It's not my business, it's Allah's to sort out.

But, that being said, I find many of the Muslims engaged conduct that I find repugnant and there is no excuse that is adequate. The impression is created by their own vices, to some extent, and that is on them to rectify. There is no excuse for violence, none, not ever, regardless of the reason.

Muslims are much like Christianity with tons of denominations under the umbrella of the term, and I don't mix them up. (or, at least I try not to) But, there are those making trouble and those turning their eyes so long as it suits them. (at least that is my impression) They have a duty to police their faith and keep it good as all folks who participate in religion do. I'm not seeing much of this, so if I were to have one overall complaint with the Muslims as a whole it would be along this line.

In my view and experience, I don't think enough Muslims create joined efforts to improve their societies and countries towards actually representing the values they claim to possess, and if anything I see to much hypocrisy. As the say goes; practice what you preach.
In this case, Islam is a very justice orientated religion in it's social aspect - yet I see only idleness coming from Muslim common folk when it comes to correcting injustice and oppression that is done (and often in the name of the religion, which is heartbreaking). I don't know how much this is due to idleness or even fear, but much more could and should be done by truly sincere Muslims fighting for the cause of just and fair society.

 

[Cooky]

My initial opinion of Islam was engraved in my mind the day after 9-11-01, when Muslims were shown on TV cheering and celebrating the deaths of innocent civilians, women, children... Honest everyday people murderered in mass.

 

[EsonauticSage]

My initial opinion of Islam was engraved in my mind the day after 9-11-01, when Muslims were shown on TV cheering and celebrating the deaths of innocent civilians, women, children... Honest everyday people murderered in mass.

Me too, and I live in a Christian-majority country.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

My initial opinion of Islam was engraved in my mind the day after 9-11-01, when Muslims were shown on TV cheering and celebrating the deaths of innocent civilians, women, children... Honest everyday people murderered in mass.

Yeah, and so what? I mean I remember Israelis sitting on hills and enjoining watch Gaza being bombed. Humans are humans. Now if you can show me as specific special trait that set Islam apart of being wholly unique and not a part of what in general entails to be a human, I will listen to you.

That you describe is not unique to Islam.

 

[Cooky]

Me too, and I live in a Christian-majority country.

To me, I can't understand how someone can be an apologist for Islam. To me, it's the same as being an apologist for the NAZI's.

...It's just my honest opinion.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Not sure what it is like in Denmark, but here in the UK we have many places with quite large Muslim communities. In some they they will appear to be of a more fundamentalist faith, the females wearing burqas or niqabs, whilst in others they will likely not be noticeable so much, and a headscarf might be all that distinguishes them as being Muslim. Do you think this has any bearing upon how they might be perceived?

Yes, we have the same to a lesser extend in Denmark, but if you look closer it is not always just about a more fundamentalist faith. It is sometimes as much about how the rest of society deals with it.

 

[EsonauticSage]

To me, I can't understand how someone can be an apologist for Islam. To me, it's the same as being an apologist for the NAZI's.

...It's just my honest opinion.

I don't like apologists of anything, just like their polemical opposers, they squeeze the life out of any subject.

My comment before seemed to fly over your head though. I grew up with similar stigma and taboo over the subject, with clueless Christian parents too. When I came around to studying the subject as an adult I ended up finding one of my loves/passions. Enough to spend hundreds of dollars on shelves of Islamic books, among other things.

That'd make you and I the opposite then I guess.

 

[Cooky]

Yeah, and so what? I mean I remember Israelis sitting on hills and enjoining watch Gaza being bombed. Humans are humans. Now if you can show me as specific special trait that set Islam apart of being wholly unique and not a part of what in general entails to be a human, I will listen to you.

That you describe is not unique to Islam.

My opinion of terrorism became a reality when it effected me. And I never even heard of Islam until they slaughtered my fellows.

Imagine a complete stranger breaking into your house and killing your family.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

To me, I can't understand how someone can be an apologist for Islam. To me, it's the same as being an apologist for the NAZI's.

Yeah, but there are 3 positions: Anti-, complex and apologist. So some of us are complex and if an anti comes along we are apologists, where as to some fundamentalists we are not complex, we are anti.

So if I have a complex approach, I know ,it is there, if I to some am an apologist and to others anti. There is more to it of course.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

My opinion of terrorism became a reality when it effected me. And I never even heard of Islam until they slaughtered my fellows.

Yeah, that is subjective to you and colored by your emotions. That I accept. I just do it differently and I accept if you don't accept that I do it differently.

 

[Piculet]

Apostasy laws are non-Islamic. It is political corruption, nothing more.

Do you see a problem with the hadith that support the apostasy law then?

 

[Lyndon]

Americans have murdered 100 times as many innocent Muslims, as Muslims have killed Americans.

 

[exchemist]

There is a "Muslim" problem or we would not be talking about it.

Where the problem lays is a far more difficult to answer.
The problem presents itself to a very large extent an the various interfaces between those following the muslin faith and those that do not.
There are very large areas of the UK where there are insignificant numbers of Muslims and where there is almost no recognition of problems at all.
In some other more urban locations the Muslim populations can be approaching a majority, and where they constitute a near majority of the elected local politicians. usually with few problems at all.

However it is only where there are significant large numbers of young radical Muslims, that the greatest concerns and unrest develops,
This seems to usually develop around significant Radical religious teachers associated with certain localised mosques. These too are often associated with Saudi Arabia.
Unlike some other countries there is remarkably little aggravation between the Sunni and Shia followers here.

Thirty years ago it was uncommon to notice any Muslim by the way they dressed in the UK. though quite large the Muslim population mostly wore western dress, or took on a sort of hybrid fashion. Arab style dress and face coverings were almost unknown.

The change to distinctive Muslim style clothing here seems to have grown with the rise of Islamic identity and radicalism in the middle east.

I suspect easy Identification leads to the greater possibility of direct confrontation.

A large proportion of the native British people are neither religious nor even care what religion or none that someone else follows. they are both unaware and do not care. It also seems to be true that they do no like it for people to "flaunt" their religion and that applies to all religions. in the UK religion is very largely a private matter. Where ever Religion is flaunted seems to lead to trouble. that is very much the case in Northern Ireland. I suspect it is also the case toward Muslims.

Of course in a majority of communities there is absolutely no Muslim problem of any sort.
but where it does occur it can be very problematic indeed.

Anti discrimination laws seem to be no help at all, and sometimes aggravate the situation.

Fundamental Christians do exist in the UK, but keep their heads down and seem as rare as hens teeth. they are certainly not any sort of problem.
Hasidic Jews seem to keep to very much to themselves, and are rarely seen here at all. In my small home town a group of Hasidic boys and teachers seem to visit one a year, and are very much the subject of curiosity and wonder, rather than any other reaction.

Agree with much of this. The problem seems to come from the rise of political Islam, and from the tendency of the Saudis to export their horribly puritanical version of it, using their oil wealth to do so.

 

[Mock Turtle]

My initial opinion of Islam was engraved in my mind the day after 9-11-01, when Muslims were shown on TV cheering and celebrating the deaths of innocent civilians, women, children... Honest everyday people murderered in mass.

That's one issue - but it is only a few doing this (in proportion to the number of Muslims worldwide) but unfortunately it does tend to make an impact as you have found out. The simple answer is though that one should just ignore such since they are in no way representative of all Muslims. And much is more aimed at America as such (seen as an enemy), even if it is purely callous to celebrate the loss of any life, especially innocent ones.

 

[icehorse]

the number of Muslims wanting Sharia law, here in the UK and possibly elsewhere; sexual abuse of children by groups of Asians, here in the UK; every terrorist action against non-Muslims (Charlie Hebdo, for example); blasphemy and/or apostasy laws in many countries (being quite severe) - they all tend to contribute towards having a negative image of Islam and how it seemingly doesn't fit in with Western ways of thinking or behaving.

These all seem like legitimate reasons to dislike the ideas of Islam.

Some 35% said they felt most British people did not trust Muslims, and a fifth said they thought Western liberal society could never be compatible with Islam.

This seems like a legitimate concern.

The right to deny the existence of God is under threat

also a legit concern.

"A Muslim is first and foremost identified as a Muslim, rather than simply a human being.

Tricky this one. There are two important cases:

1 - A Muslim would like to leave the faith but is not allowed to. This is reason enough to dislike Islam.
2 - A Muslim agrees with the ideas of Islam. Being a Muslim is a choice. It's a choice that declares the the world "I have decided to agree with the ideas of Islam". It is simply the case that people are identified by the choices they make.

Negativity towards a group as a whole is usually never factually based, but one might understand why Islam and Muslims are so often perceived in certain ways. In the past, much the same has happened to other religious beliefs, and currently it is Islam in the spotlight.

I believe that there are a core set of ideas in Islam. Anyone who declares themselves a Muslim is declaring that they support the core ideas of Islam. They have CHOSEN to be a member of this group, and while they are all different, they do have this one important thing in common.

Further, I see attempt after attempt by apologists to claim that Islam can't be pinned down to a single set of ideas. Well you cannot have it both ways. If Islam doesn't stand for anything, why are we asked to respect it?

 

[icehorse]

It is not possible to do that. To reduce Islam down in effect to one moral system. If you look closer you will find Muslims which are in effect secular, humanistic and democratic. And you will find Westerners, who are not that.
In practice a Muslim is a person, who self-identifies as a Muslim and that is all. What a Muslim is, is as varied as humans are varied in general.

I disagree with all of these claims, see post #38.

 

[icehorse]

That's too much of a generalization.

see post #38