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Exploring Naturalism: The Philosophy and the Science

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I have always found naturalism attractive because of its sparse nature.
a)There is one world, the natural world, that we can explore through our senses guided by reason and the scientific method.
b)The only constituents in this world are physical entities that act upon each other in set and repeatable patterns called the "laws of nature", that again can be discovered through the scientific method.
c)And finally all experienced phenomena are produced by the interactions between agglomerates of these physical entities in accordance with the laws of nature.

Its a simple philosophy, and sciences take this philosophy as the "working hypothesis" in order to investigate the world. The enormous success of the science to describe, predict and manipulate the phenomena of the world by results obtained by such investigations must be counted as a strong evidence for the plausibility of the naturalism as a worldview. At least what this shows that enormous portions of our experienced reality approximates the axioms of naturalistic philosophy well enough that one cannot tell the difference. The scientific method also provides a more detailed picture which a naturalist philosophy can use to add more meat to the question "What kind of physical world is it?" Very simply, the best concise answer that sciences provide to this question is as follows:-

i) There exists a fundamental description of the natural world that is completely general, incorporates the most universal forms of patterns or laws that act upon the most fundamental physical entities. This fundamental description is applicable everywhere under any condition.

ii) There are multiple emergent and effective descriptions that depend upon this fundamental description and are applicable for only a certain sets or groups of physical entities that are composed in certain ways from the most fundamental constitutents. These emergent descriptions follow laws or patterns that are only applicable only in certain well-defined domains. Such effective descriptions are "useful" as they highlight certain group behaviors of reality under those conditions and in which we are interested in while suppressing other information in which we are not interested in.

iii) These emergent descriptions have a nested hierarchy of applicability, generality and "distance" from the most fundamental description. They are also consistent with other and compatible with more generalized descriptions of the level "below" it. The "language" used in one effective description is often meaningless outside its domain of applicability.

iv) Our purposes and interests at a given moment determine the best way of talking about the world among this set of useful effective descriptions of the world.


I believe that together, these insights make naturalism a plausible and fruitful avenue to explore. At least I plan on brainstorming about it. :)

The obvious objections here would be,
a) Can naturalism really explain all the experienced realities of the world? (Consciousness, Meaning, Morals, Spiritual Experiences are given as counter-examples)
b) Is the description presented by science truly compatible with naturalism? (Anthropic Principle, First Cause, Quantum Philosophy is often given as counterexamples).
c) Is the scientific description reliable at all? (Here evolution is often the target).

What do you think folks (naturalists or otherwise), is this a good overview of naturalism, its properties and its objections?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Nope. I distrust worldviews. They seem to be an effort to achieve consistency often at the expense of insight and accuracy.
Interesting. For me, they help generate further avenues of exploration and learning through questions and investigations. Much like scientific models.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Interesting. For me, they help generate further avenues of exploration and learning through questions and investigations. Much like scientific models.

Oh, I love models. The best are quite fruitful. Got nothing against those. But I think human intelligence is too limited for worldviews.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I have always found naturalism attractive because of its sparse nature.
It seems unattractive to me as it sounds a lot like materialism leading to scientism. This approach does not seem to appreciate the transcendental nature of human consciousness (and denies the possibility of transcendent experiences beyond the known realm of the senses).
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It seems unattractive to me as it sounds a lot like materialism leading to scientism. This approach does not seem to appreciate the transcendental nature of human consciousness (and denies the possibility of transcendent experiences beyond the known realm of the senses).
Well its the mirror image of Advaita. Advaita denies that the world is real in its own right distinct from the Self, while naturalism denies that the Self is real in its own right distinct from the world. Advaita believes everything is and comes from the Self, Naturalism believes that everything is and comes from fundamental physical constituents. They are both sparse and elegant, and its more upto assessing which has more going for it. But again, while Advaita elevates spiritual experiences above sensory experience in terms of evidence consistent with its worldview, naturalism elevates sensory experiences above spiritual experience in terms of evidence consistent with its worldview. So an easy comparison will be difficult.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I'll grant that one advantage of philosophical or metaphysical naturalism is that you can make a fairly strong inductive argument that it is correct.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I have always found naturalism attractive because of its sparse nature.
a)There is one world, the natural world, that we can explore through our senses guided by reason and the scientific method.
b
)The only constituents in this world are physical entities that act upon each other in set and repeatable patterns called the "laws of nature", that again can be discovered through the scientific method.
c)And finally all experienced phenomena are produced by the interactions between agglomerates of these physical entities in accordance with the laws of nature.

Its a simple philosophy, and sciences take this philosophy as the "working hypothesis" in order to investigate the world. The enormous success of the science to describe, predict and manipulate the phenomena of the world by results obtained by such investigations must be counted as a strong evidence for the plausibility of the naturalism as a worldview. At least what this shows that enormous portions of our experienced reality approximates the axioms of naturalistic philosophy well enough that one cannot tell the difference. The scientific method also provides a more detailed picture which a naturalist philosophy can use to add more meat to the question "What kind of physical world is it?" Very simply, the best concise answer that sciences provide to this question is as follows:-

i) There exists a fundamental description of the natural world that is completely general, incorporates the most universal forms of patterns or laws that act upon the most fundamental physical entities. This fundamental description is applicable everywhere under any condition.

ii) There are multiple emergent and effective descriptions that depend upon this fundamental description and are applicable for only a certain sets or groups of physical entities that are composed in certain ways from the most fundamental constitutents. These emergent descriptions follow laws or patterns that are only applicable only in certain well-defined domains. Such effective descriptions are "useful" as they highlight certain group behaviors of reality under those conditions and in which we are interested in while suppressing other information in which we are not interested in.

iii) These emergent descriptions have a nested hierarchy of applicability, generality and "distance" from the most fundamental description. They are also consistent with other and compatible with more generalized descriptions of the level "below" it. The "language" used in one effective description is often meaningless outside its domain of applicability.

iv) Our purposes and interests at a given moment determine the best way of talking about the world among this set of useful effective descriptions of the world.


I believe that together, these insights make naturalism a plausible and fruitful avenue to explore. At least I plan on brainstorming about it. :)

The obvious objections here would be,
a) Can naturalism really explain all the experienced realities of the world? (Consciousness, Meaning, Morals, Spiritual Experiences are given as counter-examples)
b) Is the description presented by science truly compatible with naturalism? (Anthropic Principle, First Cause, Quantum Philosophy is often given as counterexamples).
c) Is the scientific description reliable at all? (Here evolution is often the target).

What do you think folks (naturalists or otherwise), is this a good overview of naturalism, its properties and its objections?
How about a good definition of "naturalism" as you're using it.


.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
How about a good definition of "naturalism" as you're using it.


.

What is it about the definition he's given that does not satisfy you?

a)There is one world, the natural world, that we can explore through our senses guided by reason and the scientific method.
b)The only constituents in this world are physical entities that act upon each other in set and repeatable patterns called the "laws of nature", that again can be discovered through the scientific method.
c)And finally all experienced phenomena are produced by the interactions between agglomerates of these physical entities in accordance with the laws of nature.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Well its the mirror image of Advaita. Advaita denies that the world is real in its own right distinct from the Self, while naturalism denies that the Self is real in its own right distinct from the world. Advaita believes everything is and comes from the Self, Naturalism believes that everything is and comes from fundamental physical constituents. They are both sparse and elegant, and its more upto assessing which has more going for it. But again, while Advaita elevates spiritual experiences above sensory experience in terms of evidence consistent with its worldview, naturalism elevates sensory experiences above spiritual experience in terms of evidence consistent with its worldview. So an easy comparison will be difficult.
Interesting thoughts. How's this for mirror images:

Advaita - Consciousness is fundamental and matter is a derivative of consciousness

Naturalism - Matter is fundamental and consciousness is a derivative of matter


I naturally think Advaita is true from my study of eastern spiritual masters and the (paranormal) evidence for non-physical conscious entities.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
How about a good definition of "naturalism" as you're using it.


.
See the first sentences

a)There is one world, the natural world, that we can explore through our senses guided by reason and the scientific method.
b
)The only constituents in this world are physical entities that act upon each other in set and repeatable patterns called the "laws of nature", that again can be discovered through the scientific method.
c)And finally all experienced phenomena are produced by the interactions between agglomerates of these physical entities in accordance with the laws of nature.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Interesting thoughts. How's this for mirror images:

Advaita - Consciousness is fundamental and matter is a derivative of consciousness

Naturalism - Matter is fundamental and consciousness is a derivative of matter


I naturally think Advaita is true from my study of eastern spiritual masters and the (paranormal) evidence for non-physical conscious entities.
Yes. But I would not say matter as matter has a very specific meaning and does not encompass all (or even the fundamental) description of the physical entities of the world in science.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Yes. But I would not say matter as matter has a very specific meaning and does not encompass all (or even the fundamental) description of the physical entities of the world in science.
Yes, the question of 'what is matter?'. I would I guess it's vibrating particles. In Advaita, consciousness is not composed of particles. The particles are really the props in this play of the universe that we perceive as real relative to us.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
What is it about the definition he's given that does not satisfy you?
I must have missed it. What is it?


See the first sentences
["naturalism"]

a)There is one world, the natural world, that we can explore through our senses guided by reason and the scientific method.
Sorry, but this is merely a description of the "one world," unless you mean that "naturism" = one world. :shrug:

b) The only constituents in this world are physical entities that act upon each other in set and repeatable patterns called the "laws of nature", that again can be discovered through the scientific method.
So "naturism" is: physical entities that act upon each other in set and repeatable patterns, which can be discovered through the scientific method?

c) And finally all experienced phenomena are produced by the interactions between agglomerates of these physical entities in accordance with the laws of nature.

OR, perhaps I'm mistaken and "naturalism" is [a] one world, with physical entities that act upon each other in set and repeatable patterns, which can be discovered through the scientific method, and [c] that the phenomena we experience are produced by interactions between the collection of the physical entities according to the laws of nature. That about it?

I guess what threw me was the "ism" in "naturalism," which suggest a belief, practice, principle, or doctrine.


.
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I must have missed it. What is it?



Sorry, but this is merely a description of the "one world," unless you mean that "naturism" = one world. :shrug:


So "naturism" is: physical entities that act upon each other in set and repeatable patterns, which can be discovered through the scientific method?



OR, perhaps I'm mistaken and "naturalism" is [a] one world, with physical entities that act upon each other in set and repeatable patterns, which can be discovered through the scientific method, and [c] that the phenomena we experience are produced by interactions between the collection of the physical entities according to the laws of nature. That about it?

I guess what threw me was the "ism" in "naturalism," which suggest a belief, practice, principle, or doctrine.


.
Naturalism is the metaphysical proposition that there exists one and only one world/reality called the natural world. This natural world is one which we can explore through our senses guided by reason and the scientific method. The only constituents in this world are physical entities that act upon each other in set and repeatable patterns called the "laws of nature", that again can be discovered through the scientific method. And finally all experienced phenomena are produced by the interactions between agglomerates of these physical entities in accordance with the laws of nature.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Naturalism is the metaphysical proposition that there exists one and only one world/reality called the natural world. This natural world is one which we can explore through our senses guided by reason and the scientific method. The only constituents in this world are physical entities that act upon each other in set and repeatable patterns called the "laws of nature", that again can be discovered through the scientific method. And finally all experienced phenomena are produced by the interactions between agglomerates of these physical entities in accordance with the laws of nature.
Thank you. In other words, supernatural or spiritual explanations are excluded.


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