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Extra-Biblical Evidence Of Jesus's Existence
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
PoetPhilosopher
Veteran Member
.but then maybe I missed it. What do you have?
I haven't seen any,
.
Not everyone can produce wood that great.
The Quran said he existed. There's legends in India that he's buried there and there are Hindus who acknowledge him.
Then there's this https://www.history.com/news/was-jesus-real-historical-evidence and in different words but basically the same facts here What is the historical evidence that Jesus Christ lived and died?
Then there's this https://www.history.com/news/was-jesus-real-historical-evidence and in different words but basically the same facts here What is the historical evidence that Jesus Christ lived and died?
Eyes to See
Well-Known Member
https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/awake-no5-2016-october/did-jesus-really-exist/
TACITUS
"Christus, the founder of the name [Christian], had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilatus.”—Annals, XV, 44.
SUETONIUS
Lives of the Ceasars
“Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christus], he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome.” - The Deified Claudius, XXV, 4.
PLINY THE YOUNGER
“Those who . . . repeated after me an invocation to the [pagan] Gods, and offered adoration, with wine and frankincense, to your image . . . and who finally cursed Christ . . . , I thought it proper to discharge.”—Pliny—Letters, Book X, XCVI.
FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS
This Jewish priest and historian states that Annas, a Jewish high priest who continued to wield political influence, “convened the judges of the Sanhedrin [the Jewish high court] and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ.”—Jewish Antiquities, XX, 200.
THE TALMUD
Dating from 3rd-6th century C. E.
One passage says that on “the Passover Yeshu [Jesus] the Nazarean was hanged,” which is historically correct. (Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 43a, Munich Codex.)
Another states: “May we produce no son or pupil who disgraces himself in public like the Nazarene”—a title often applied to Jesus.—Babylonian Talmud, Berakoth 17b, footnote, Munich Codex).
TACITUS
"Christus, the founder of the name [Christian], had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilatus.”—Annals, XV, 44.
SUETONIUS
Lives of the Ceasars
“Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christus], he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome.” - The Deified Claudius, XXV, 4.
PLINY THE YOUNGER
“Those who . . . repeated after me an invocation to the [pagan] Gods, and offered adoration, with wine and frankincense, to your image . . . and who finally cursed Christ . . . , I thought it proper to discharge.”—Pliny—Letters, Book X, XCVI.
FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS
This Jewish priest and historian states that Annas, a Jewish high priest who continued to wield political influence, “convened the judges of the Sanhedrin [the Jewish high court] and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ.”—Jewish Antiquities, XX, 200.
THE TALMUD
Dating from 3rd-6th century C. E.
One passage says that on “the Passover Yeshu [Jesus] the Nazarean was hanged,” which is historically correct. (Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 43a, Munich Codex.)
Another states: “May we produce no son or pupil who disgraces himself in public like the Nazarene”—a title often applied to Jesus.—Babylonian Talmud, Berakoth 17b, footnote, Munich Codex).
Skwim
Veteran Member
How about Robert of New Jersey and Doris? IOW, mere names mean nothing.
Excellent link
"There is no definitive physical or archaeological evidence of the existence of Jesus. “There’s nothing conclusive, nor would I expect there to be,” Mykytiuk [associate professor of library science at Purdue University] says. “Peasants don’t normally leave an archaeological trail.”
“The reality is that we don’t have archaeological records for virtually anyone who lived in Jesus’s time and place,” says University of North Carolina religious studies professor Bart D. Ehrman, author of Did Jesus Exist? The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth. “The lack of evidence does not mean a person at the time didn’t exist. It means that she or he, like 99.99% of the rest of the world at the time, made no impact on the archaeological record.”
Documentary evidence outside of the New Testament is limited.
The most detailed record of the life and death of Jesus comes from the four Gospels and other New Testament writings. “These are all Christian and are obviously and understandably biased in what they report, and have to be evaluated very critically indeed to establish any historically reliable information,” Ehrman says. “But their central claims about Jesus as a historical figure—a Jew, with followers, executed on orders of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, during the reign of the Emperor Tiberius—are borne out by later sources with a completely different set of biases.”
Within a few decades of his lifetime, Jesus was mentioned by Jewish and Roman historians in passages that corroborate portions of the New Testament that describe the life and death of Jesus.
Thought to have been born a few years after the crucifixion of Jesus around 37 A.D., Josephus was a well-connected aristocrat and military leader in Palestine who served as a commander in Galilee during the first Jewish Revolt against Rome between 66 and 70 A.D. Although Josephus was not a follower of Jesus, “he was around when the early church was getting started, so he knew people who had seen and heard Jesus,” Mykytiuk says.
In one passage of Jewish Antiquities that recounts an unlawful execution, Josephus identifies the victim, James, as the “brother of Jesus-who-is-called-Messiah.” While few scholars doubt the short account’s authenticity, says Mykytiuk, more debate surrounds Josephus’s lengthier passage about Jesus, known as the “Testimonium Flavianum,” which describes a man “who did surprising deeds” and was condemned to be crucified by Pilate. Mykytiuk agrees with most scholars that Christian scribes modified portions of the passage but did not insert it wholesale into the text."
“The reality is that we don’t have archaeological records for virtually anyone who lived in Jesus’s time and place,” says University of North Carolina religious studies professor Bart D. Ehrman, author of Did Jesus Exist? The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth. “The lack of evidence does not mean a person at the time didn’t exist. It means that she or he, like 99.99% of the rest of the world at the time, made no impact on the archaeological record.”
Documentary evidence outside of the New Testament is limited.
The most detailed record of the life and death of Jesus comes from the four Gospels and other New Testament writings. “These are all Christian and are obviously and understandably biased in what they report, and have to be evaluated very critically indeed to establish any historically reliable information,” Ehrman says. “But their central claims about Jesus as a historical figure—a Jew, with followers, executed on orders of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, during the reign of the Emperor Tiberius—are borne out by later sources with a completely different set of biases.”
Within a few decades of his lifetime, Jesus was mentioned by Jewish and Roman historians in passages that corroborate portions of the New Testament that describe the life and death of Jesus.
Thought to have been born a few years after the crucifixion of Jesus around 37 A.D., Josephus was a well-connected aristocrat and military leader in Palestine who served as a commander in Galilee during the first Jewish Revolt against Rome between 66 and 70 A.D. Although Josephus was not a follower of Jesus, “he was around when the early church was getting started, so he knew people who had seen and heard Jesus,” Mykytiuk says.
In one passage of Jewish Antiquities that recounts an unlawful execution, Josephus identifies the victim, James, as the “brother of Jesus-who-is-called-Messiah.” While few scholars doubt the short account’s authenticity, says Mykytiuk, more debate surrounds Josephus’s lengthier passage about Jesus, known as the “Testimonium Flavianum,” which describes a man “who did surprising deeds” and was condemned to be crucified by Pilate. Mykytiuk agrees with most scholars that Christian scribes modified portions of the passage but did not insert it wholesale into the text."
Tacitus wrote about early Christians ca.AD116 and referenced the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate. Unfortunately, 100 years later doesn't carry the weight of someone contemporary with Jesus, and can only be taken as an account passed down through the years.
Suetonius "(c. AD 69 – c. AD 122) mentions early Christians and may refer to Jesus Christ in his work Lives of the Twelve Caesars"
But again, a knowledge of early Christians that had to have been handed down through the years.
PLINY THE YOUNGER: Not a thing about any knowledge he had of Jesus
FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS: Although his writings were necessarily accounts handed down by others, it's probably the most interesting account of Jesus there is. Accompanied by claims of forgery.
"The extant manuscripts of the book Antiquities of the Jews, written by the first-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus around 93–94 AD, contain two references to Jesus of Nazareth and one reference to John the Baptist.
The first and most extensive reference to Jesus in the Antiquities, found in Book 18, states that Jesus was the Messiah and a wise teacher who was crucified by Pilate. It is commonly called the Testimonium Flavianum. Almost all modern scholars reject the authenticity of this passage in its present form, while the majority of scholars nevertheless hold that it contains an authentic nucleus referencing the execution of Jesus by Pilate, which was then subject to Christian interpolation and/or alteration.[ The exact nature and extent of the Christian redaction remains unclear, however."
The first and most extensive reference to Jesus in the Antiquities, found in Book 18, states that Jesus was the Messiah and a wise teacher who was crucified by Pilate. It is commonly called the Testimonium Flavianum. Almost all modern scholars reject the authenticity of this passage in its present form, while the majority of scholars nevertheless hold that it contains an authentic nucleus referencing the execution of Jesus by Pilate, which was then subject to Christian interpolation and/or alteration.[ The exact nature and extent of the Christian redaction remains unclear, however."
Three perspectives on authenticity
The complete works of Josephus, 1582
Paul L. Maier and Zvi Baras state that there are three possible perspectives on the authenticity of the Testimonium:
1. It is entirely authentic.
2. It is entirely a Christian forgery.
3. It contains Christian interpolations in what was Josephus' authentic material about Jesus.[3][50]
Paul Maier states that the first case is generally seen as hopeless given that as a Jew, Josephus would not have claimed Jesus as the Messiah, and that the second option is hardly tenable given the presence of the passage in all extant Greek manuscripts; thus a large majority of modern scholars accept the third alternative, i.e., partial authenticity.[3] Baras adds that the third position is more plausible because it accepts parts of the passage as genuine, but discounts other parts as interpolations.[50] Craig Evans (and separately Robert Van Voorst) state that most modern scholars accept the position that the Testimonium is partially authentic, had a kernel with an authentic reference to Jesus, and that the analysis of its content and style support this conclusion.[
Arguments for complete forgery
In addition to the arguments listed above, a minority of scholars have put forward arguments to the effect that the entire Testimonium is a Christian interpolation. For example, Kenneth Olson has argued that the entire Testimonium must have been forged by Eusebius himself, basing his argument on textual similarities between the Testimonium and Eusebius' writings in the Demonstrations of the Gospels.
In 2012, Josephus scholar Louis Feldman reversed his prior support for the partial authenticity of the Testimonium, proposing that the passage was interpolated in its entirety by Eusebius. In support of this view, Feldman points out, following Olson, that the Testimonium features three phrases ('one who wrought surprising feats,' 'the tribe of the Christians,' and 'still to this day') which are used no where else in the whole of Greek literature except Eusebius.
Source:Wikipedia
The complete works of Josephus, 1582
Paul L. Maier and Zvi Baras state that there are three possible perspectives on the authenticity of the Testimonium:
1. It is entirely authentic.
2. It is entirely a Christian forgery.
3. It contains Christian interpolations in what was Josephus' authentic material about Jesus.[3][50]
Paul Maier states that the first case is generally seen as hopeless given that as a Jew, Josephus would not have claimed Jesus as the Messiah, and that the second option is hardly tenable given the presence of the passage in all extant Greek manuscripts; thus a large majority of modern scholars accept the third alternative, i.e., partial authenticity.[3] Baras adds that the third position is more plausible because it accepts parts of the passage as genuine, but discounts other parts as interpolations.[50] Craig Evans (and separately Robert Van Voorst) state that most modern scholars accept the position that the Testimonium is partially authentic, had a kernel with an authentic reference to Jesus, and that the analysis of its content and style support this conclusion.[
Arguments for complete forgery
In addition to the arguments listed above, a minority of scholars have put forward arguments to the effect that the entire Testimonium is a Christian interpolation. For example, Kenneth Olson has argued that the entire Testimonium must have been forged by Eusebius himself, basing his argument on textual similarities between the Testimonium and Eusebius' writings in the Demonstrations of the Gospels.
In 2012, Josephus scholar Louis Feldman reversed his prior support for the partial authenticity of the Testimonium, proposing that the passage was interpolated in its entirety by Eusebius. In support of this view, Feldman points out, following Olson, that the Testimonium features three phrases ('one who wrought surprising feats,' 'the tribe of the Christians,' and 'still to this day') which are used no where else in the whole of Greek literature except Eusebius.
Source:Wikipedia
THE TALMUD Dating from 3rd-6th century C. E.
A retelling of historical accounts, Again, not really convincing
A retelling of historical accounts, Again, not really convincing
Although the evidence is well removed from any firsthand knowledge of Jesus, I feel there's still enough extra-Biblical references to believe Jesus did exist.
Thanks people. You did well.
Skwim
.
.
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so said the blind man.What do you have?
..I haven't seen any,
.but then maybe I missed it.
.
Salvador
RF's Swedenborgian
.What do you have?
..I haven't seen any,
.but then maybe I missed it.
.
James Ossuary might be where the earthly remains of Jesus's brother James had been entombed.
James Ossuary is a limestone box scientifically dated to the first century time of the Nazarene Jesus Christ as well as having an Aramaic inscription written in the Hebrew alphabet indicating this sacred vessel contained "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus" ; this being likely archaeological evidence for the existence Jesus of Nazareth.
Rational Agnostic
Well-Known Member
so said the blind man
Apparently he changed his mind already.
You had no difficulty going after Josephus later on in this very post. (So much for the meaningless dismissal.)
Skwim
Veteran Member
Eyes to See gave me somewhere to go to and work with other than just the name.You had no difficulty going after Josephus later on in this very post. (So much for the meaningless dismissal.)
.
You have the Josephus quotes. You won't find any in Philo of Alexandria, however. His writings bear an almost uncanny parallel to early Christianity with the melding of Greek and Hebrew ideals. So much so, that others accused him of being a Christian.Eyes to See gave me somewhere to go to and work with other than just the name.
.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Well Jesus was a carpenter. So I suppose that's something.
I wonder what an original Jesus end table would go for?
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Even then, Josephus was only talking about early Christians who believed in Christ. Hence the reference made to Christ.
Can't convince Christians that though. They think he was talking about Christ himself.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
One thing's for certain. It's unlikely any Jewish person would have written like that.
Josephus was a Jewish scribe. There's no real reason he would make any kind of reference like that other than acknowledging there are Christians running around who follow Christ.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Must be a slow day..What do you have?
..I haven't seen any,
.but then maybe I missed it.
.
Ah, I was wondering if someone would bring this up. I heard a lecture just a few months ago by an Israeli archaeologist who heads Israel's anti archaeological forgery and theft department, who mentioned this piece and said it's a fake. I mean, the vessel is a real ancient object, but at least some of the letters were added on by an art forger. Unfortunately, because of this, there's no way of knowing, at this point, what part of the text - if any of it -is real (that is, they believe that at least some of it may have been real and the rest was added for the clear monetary value). I know there are opposing views on the matter, though. It's just not so clear-cut, so I'd be weary of seeing this as definitive proof.James Ossuary might be where the earthly remains of Jesus's brother James had been entombed.
James Ossuary is a limestone box scientifically dated to the first century time of the Nazarene Jesus Christ as well as having an Aramaic inscription written in the Hebrew alphabet indicating this sacred vessel contained "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus" ; this being likely archaeological evidence for the existence Jesus of Nazareth.
rosends
Well-Known Member
2 notes -- the ossuary (if real) lists names. The first name is "Ya'acov" -- why is that rendered as "James" in the English? And if we have biblical accounts of another person with the name "Yeyshua" why do we assume that in the entire of the region, there is only one other person that this ossuary could be referring to?
Second, please don't rely on the talmud quote. There is plenty of evidence that the person being spoken of in it is not at all Jesus
The Jesus Narrative In The Talmud
the Munich codex is here but where the phrase should be there is what looks like a scratched off area (and no footnote explaining what was removed). I found the phrase in another codex -- it means "not have a son or a student who overcooks his food in public like Yeshu the Notzri." As this is from the gemara, not the mishna, it cannot be dated to any time contemporary with Jesus' supposed life. Plus, all the stuff from the other site I linked to that discusses the use of the name/term.
Second, please don't rely on the talmud quote. There is plenty of evidence that the person being spoken of in it is not at all Jesus
The Jesus Narrative In The Talmud
the Munich codex is here but where the phrase should be there is what looks like a scratched off area (and no footnote explaining what was removed). I found the phrase in another codex -- it means "not have a son or a student who overcooks his food in public like Yeshu the Notzri." As this is from the gemara, not the mishna, it cannot be dated to any time contemporary with Jesus' supposed life. Plus, all the stuff from the other site I linked to that discusses the use of the name/term.
For reference, here's a chart comparing different manuscripts of Sanhedrin 43a: On the far right is the Vilna edition, the most commonly used edition today. After that is the Barco Edition from 1498 if I'm not mistaken. Then the Rabbi Hertzog manuscript, then the Karlsruhe and finally the Munich.
and a close-up of the Munich and theorized transcription of the relevant section:
Interestingly, the second-oldest manuscript, the Karlsruhe, does say a number of times "Yeshu ha'Noztri":
and a close-up of the Munich and theorized transcription of the relevant section:
Interestingly, the second-oldest manuscript, the Karlsruhe, does say a number of times "Yeshu ha'Noztri":