Extremes of Atheism vs Theism

[Enai de a lukal]

We have all experienced eternity before we were born.

:thud:

Erm... Uhhh... Huh?

Our perception shows us causes from our own beginning but inuitively there should be a beginning

Why? My intuition seems to suggest the exact opposite- a beginning strikes me as completely counter-intuitive. But nevermind that- why should we trust our intuitions on this subject in the first place?

So we expect there to be an ultimate exception to strings of events.

Again, such an expectation is clearly not universal, but why should our expactation lend any presumption of truth? How often are our expectations, particularly regarding the universe on a large scale, born out in reality?

Saying a universe caused a universe ad infinitum isnt something we can experience either.

In its totality? Of course not. But a sequence of contingent causes and effects, without exceptions, is what we experience.

 

[idav]

:thud:

Erm... Uhhh... Huh?

You don't remember eternity?

But nevermind that- why should we trust our intuitions on this subject in the first place?

Good point.

Again, such an expectation is clearly not universal, but why should our expactation lend any presumption of truth? How often are our expectations, particularly regarding the universe on a large scale, born out in reality?


In its totality? Of course not. But a sequence of contingent causes and effects, without exceptions, is what we experience.

Your point works in my favor as well. Why should we expect contingent causes and effects just cause that's what we are used to?

 

[crossfire]

Your point works in my favor as well. Why should we expect contingent causes and effects just cause that's what we are used to?

Out of chaos, order--complex systems create order. However, it can be difficult to formally model emergent systems, as cause and effect can become ambiguous. (Is this not the definition of chaos?) Our brains also seem to exhibit this ambiguity between cause and effect. {I'm sure Legion can give you all sorts of sources regarding this.}

 

[crossfire]

No, actually the opposite. Imagine that you start counting minutes backwards. -1 minute, -2 minutes, -3 minutes, -4 minutes, -5 minutes and so on. But when you reach the -1 umptillionth minute suddenly you go "Here it starts! There is no -1 umptillionth and one minute! A god had to start with the -1 umptillionth minute!" Why!?

Have you read Chuag Tzu "On Making All Things Equal?" I'll hide the quote so as not to hijack the thread.

Spoiler: From Chuang Tzu 2

The torch of chaos and doubt - this is what the sage steers by.11 So he does not use things but relegates all to the constant. This is what it means to use clarity.

Now I am going to make a statement here. I don't know whether it fits into the category of other people's statements or not. But whether it fits into their category or whether it doesn't, it obviously fits into some category. So in that respect it is no different from their statements. However, let me try making my statement.

There is a beginning. There is a not yet beginning to be a beginning. There is a not yet beginning to be a not yet beginning to be a beginning. There is being. There is nonbeing. There is a not yet beginning to be nonbeing. There is a not yet beginning to be a not yet beginning to be nonbeing. Suddenly there is nonbeing. But I do not know, when it comes to nonbeing, which is really being and which is nonbeing. Now I have just said something. But I don't know whether what I have said has really said something or whether it hasn't said something.