Ezekiel 38-39: Your views

[BlandOatmeal]

I would like to discuss Ezekiel 38-39 with Messianics. When this subject is discussed in an open forum, the opinions get so far-ranging, it becomes unmanageable. Of prophecies concerning attacks against Israel, this one seems to be most apropo to the current situation. Based on the little data the Bible gives us, "Magog" appears to be a geographical term roughly covering modern Turkey; and "Gog" appears to be a reference to the House of Gyges, which ruled the Kingdom of Lydia in Western Turkey during the time of Ezekiel (Lydia was apparently named after Lud, an early settler; but like "Magog", I take it to be a geographic term -- much like "Iowa" refers to inhabitants of Iowa hundreds of years ago). Meshech, Tubal, Gomer and Beth Togarmah were all located in what is now Turkey during Ezekiel's time. Other countries mentioned in the prophecy are Persia, Cush and Phut, which seem to be the modern Iran, Sudan and Libya.

This prophecy speaks of an attack on Israel which, taken literally, would come from Turkey, Iran, Sudan and Libya in an alliance. Up until a few years ago, those countries each seemed to be pursuing converging paths toward the regional establishment of Sharia law. The Syrian War put a halt to this convergence, and set Turkey at odds with Iran. With the flurry of diplomatic moves lately, the possibility again arises, that these countries could move in concert. This would be to Israel's detriment, which is why I am concerned as a Messianic.

Nearly all of the Bible concerns events affecting the Jewish people in the land of Israel; so these events ALWAYS have religious significance. Without posting a poll, I would like to get a feel of how MESSIANICS view this prophecy, and its relation to current events. There will be ample time for others, such as Muslims and Atheists, to put in their two cents' worth in OTHER parts of RF. Those comments will probably spark debates, which I do not want to see here. What I want to see, is people's doctrinal positions within the MJ movement.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

When I said "Your views", I actually meant "Your replies". So far, it's 51 "views" and zero "replies". Then again, I did say,

"I would like to get a feel of how MESSIANICS view this prophecy"

and there don't seem to be any self-described "Messianics" here. My thoughts tend toward

Gen 18
[32] And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
[33] And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

Note that I didn't say WHY my thoughts tend there. They just tend to... well, tend.

Not even five? Two?

 

[John 5:46]

Greetings, BlandOatmeal (although I do prefer maple & brown sugar .... )
I know there's a few Messianics here, but not many. I'm not a "regular" on this forum, but I do come here when time permits me.

I welcome your offer for an open discussion about Ezeke 38-39. I cannot speak for other professing Messianics, but I personally believe the war of Ezeke 38 is a prerequisite to the Great Trib.

Not knowing if you had a particular question or thought about it, I await your response. Shalom.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Greetings, BlandOatmeal (although I do prefer maple & brown sugar .... )
I know there's a few Messianics here, but not many. I'm not a "regular" on this forum, but I do come here when time permits me.

I welcome your offer for an open discussion about Ezeke 38-39. I cannot speak for other professing Messianics, but I personally believe the war of Ezeke 38 is a prerequisite to the Great Trib.

Not knowing if you had a particular question or thought about it, I await your response. Shalom.

I prefer it without sugar, though raisins are OK. Steel cut oats are FAR superior to rolled oats. That's because they're milled right here in the Pacific Northwest.

I am not interested in "THE Great Tribulation", and am not even sure if such a thing is in the cards for anyone. Paul said,

Acts 14
[21] And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,
[22] Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

That's all I need to know at the moment. Paul suffered tribulation, because he greatly advanced the Kingdom of God. Jesus suffered and died, doing the same. We are his disciples; and Jesus said,

Matt 10
[23] But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
[24] The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
[25] It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

Followers of Jesus have been persecuted continually throughout history, often by those calling themselves "Christians". They have been whipped, stretched on the rack and burned alive. Just what is it, that people are expecting in the future? Something worse, like a default on their home mortgages? Pardon me, but I'm simply not there.

I am interested in Ezekiel 38-39, because it talks about events that appear to be close at hand. For instance, the following has not happened at any time between 70 AD and 1948:

Ezekiel 38
[8] After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

The above did apply to the period from 538 BC to 70 AD; but the rest of the prophecy did not apply then, especially the coalition of Persia, Sudan, Libya and "Magog" (probably Turkey) with MAGOG IN THE LEAD. Magog, in Ezekiel's time, was probably Anatolia, which was in "the far north" of Israel; and "Gog" was probably "Gugu" aka "Gyges", the founder of the ruler of the house of Gyges in the western Anatolian country of Lydia. The particular ruler of Lydia in those days was Croessus, purported to have been the richest man in the world. Herodotus details how Croessus foolishly allowed himself to be conquered by the Iranians, then joined himself to them as one of their generals.

The Persian Empire that resulted did stretch from the borders of Sudan and Libya, all the way to Pakistan and Central Asia; but they did not ATTACK an Israeli nation "which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations". Rather, it was this same Persian Empire that RETURNED Israel to its desolate homeland, to re-inhabit it. Israel then lived in peace under the Persians, until they were conquered by Alexander in 332 BC. Alexander came from Macedonia, in SE Europe, and peacefully occupied Jerusalem. He died suddenly, and was succeeded in Israel by the the descendants of Ptolemey (whose empire was centered in Egypt) and Seleucis (who ruled from Antioch, in the southernmost part of Turkey).

There was a notorious Seleucid named Antiochus Epiphanes, who conquered Jerusalem in 167 BC. He was the one who set up the "Abomination of Desolation" prophesied by Daniel. Jesus referred to this "abomination" in his prophecy of end-times (post-70 AD) events:

Matt 24
[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
[16] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
[17] Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
[18] Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
[19] And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
[20] But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Antiochus had an empire that, on paper, stretched as far as India:

He COULD have been construed prophetically as the successor of Gyges, seeing that he did come from the far north. His attack on Jerusalem came AFTER he had been forced by the Romans to quit Egypt (and hence, any claim to Libya and Sudan); but he may have aquired some Libyan and Sudanese auxiliaries by that time. The Jewish uprising against Seleucid oppression happened some time AFTER Antiochus Epiphanes' death, when the Maccabes, a Jewish priestly line, rose up to rule in Jerusalem. Their rule ended with the ascension of Herod the Great who ruled as a client of the Romans.

If Ezekiel 38-39 did not refer to the times we live in, then, it may have referred to the time of the Maccabes, from 164 BC to 63 BC. I'll pass the ball to you, to critique that possibility.

CAUTION: You may have to post on MESSIANIC JUDAISM DISCUSSION, because debates are not allowed in the DIR section. This is an ever-loving pain, because THAT site requires that you be "non-Trinitatian". Your "Messianic" monicker may get your in, as long as you don't push Trinitatian doctrines in your post. If that still is a problem, just post here and we'll hope for the best.

 

[John 5:46]

All I know is that a huge enemy of Israel will come swooping down from the north to destroy and plunder the inhabitants of Israel... except God Himself will intervene on their behalf. Afterwards, He will declare the end of the exile and will pour out His spirit upon His people. Then He will gather His people from amid all the nations of the earth in an exodus that makes the one from Egypt pale in comparison. Then He will enter into judgment with us face-to-face in the Wilderness of the Peoples and will purge out the rebels and those who transgress against Him. Then He will bring us back to the Land. As a Messianic Believer, that's what I get from Ezeke 38-39 and other related prophecies.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Hello, John

I really need to see scripture quotes, to ascertain what we are talking about.

All I know is that a huge enemy of Israel will

Will? What makes you sure this is a future event? I have already painted a scenario, in which "Gog" may have been a Seleucid emperor, most likely Antiochus Epiphanes. I don't favor that theory, but we could be on a wild goose chase if we do not convincingly put it down. I want to know if there is some passage in Ezekiel 38-39 that this ignores. It requires careful reading of the chapters, which I haven't done lately.

come swooping down from the north to destroy and plunder the inhabitants of Israel... except God Himself will intervene on their behalf.

"The north" is a very broad term. "The far north" would be anything beyond Syria and Lebanon. It's always God who has intervened on behalf of Israel -- nothing new there.

Afterwards, He will declare the end of the exile

I have never seen that in Ezekiel 38-39.

and will pour out His spirit upon His people.

That's in Joel, and has no apparent connection with the Ezekiel passage.

Then He will gather His people from amid all the nations of the earth in an exodus that makes the one from Egypt pale in comparison.

I have never seen that in Ezekiel 38-39

Then He will enter into judgment with us face-to-face in the Wilderness of the Peoples and will purge out the rebels and those who transgress against Him.

That definitely has no connection with this passage.

Then He will bring us back to the Land. As a Messianic Believer, that's what I get from Ezeke 38-39 and other related prophecies.

At first glance, you seem to be conflating diverse scriptures from many parts of the Bible -- as many have done. Please be more specific, if I am unclear on this.

I don't know how long a discussion of this nature will be allowed to continue on a DIR. If you fit the description of "Messianic Jew", as I have given it in Messianic Judaism Discussions, please post there. Otherwise, we will probably have to continue this in "General Religious Debates"; and we will be in such a hostile environment there, neither of us will enjoy it. If you do go there, please leave a note on this thread; I prefer to talk with you on MJD.

If you do wish to post on this here, I don't mind personally; and I will continue to field your questions and be respectful.

My understanding of Ezekiel 38-39 is the following:

1. The attack did or will most likely come from what is now Turkey, which contains the following countries of Ezekiel's time:

• Magog, which I connect with the Neo-Hittites of Anatolia, for want of a more precise location. The "Gog" dynasty of Lydia was in western Turkey, which was the Roman client Kingdom of Pergamum in Antiochus IV's day (see map in my previous post).
• Gomer, which Josephus identified with Galatia (qv); it refers to the areas settled by the Cimerii.
• Mesech & Tubal, both of which have been identified with Cappadocia (qv) & vicinity
• Beth Togarmah, identified with the far eastern reach of Turkey (formerly part of Armenia, qv).

2. Turkey (or perhaps the Seleucids) is to attack at the head of an army containing modern-day Iran (Persia), Sudan (Cush) and Libya (Phut). Antiochus may have had ELEMENTS of his army from those places. In today's situation, Turkey and Iran are still at odds with one another; but this could change quickly. This invasion is NOT the one described as Armageddon, nor anything like the "Final Battle". It is very limited in scope, and Israel wins it.

3. The Western Alliance (NATO) definitely does not get involved directly, nor did Rome in Antiochus' day. Both NATO and the Roman Republic fit the description of "The Merchants of Tarshish" in Ezekiel.

4. The Gulf Cooperation Council, led by Saudi Arabia, definitely does not get involved directly, nor did Arabia in Ephiphanes' day. They are "Sheba and Dedan" in the prophecy.

Ezekiel 38
[13] Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee (not "fight alongside thee"), Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?
[14] Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?
[15] And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
[16] And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

5. Concerning NATO, Turkey is, of course, part of NATO; but it has a history of going its own way. This is even more so today, as they are forming alliances with Russia and China (which two, of course, have good relations with Iran); and the current American President seems to lack sufficient interest or leadership skills to keep this from happening.

I expect NATO to be at the head of the final pre-millennial attack on Israel (not Ezekiel 38-39), mentioned in Revelation 13:13-16; 19:19-21 and also in Zech. 14. They are CERTAINLY not part of the final, post-millennial battle of Rev 20:8-10

I am considered a Messianic Jew, and these are my views. I have not yet ever found a fellow Messianic to discuss these scriptures with.

 

[John 5:46]

BlandOatmeal…..
In your opening post you stated

I would like to get a feel of how MESSIANICS view this prophecy, and its relation to current events.....What I want to see, is people's doctrinal positions within the MJ movement.

So I gave you my view, but since it doesn’t exactly conform to your preconceived ideas, you became somewhat hostile and started picking me apart without ever asking about the supporting Scripture I told you came with it. I merely gave the “in a nutshell” view. I feel you don’t really care to know my opinion… you just want to cram your own down my throat. Sorry, but I hold firm to what the Lord has shown me.
Shalom

 

[BlandOatmeal]

This is not the place for debating. I told you this. Thank you for expressing your views. I did not "take you apart", and have no intention to.

Shalom shalom.