Faith and Sense :)

[IF_u_knew]

Before Thanksgiving, my sister and I were at the grocery store. We were amazed to walk in and see not only a Santa Claus walking around, but all the Christmas stuff out full force. As I was making my way through the store, I noticed that my cart was filling up more quickly than usual as well as my two sons were asking non-stop for this and that and, well ... everything.

Now, those who don’t know me might consider me somewhat of a "penny pincher," but the truth is, I don’t look at stuff and see “happiness.” I don’t look at food and think “contentment.” I don’t think of a song and think “joy.” I think contentment when I read the words of another that I “get.” I think happiness when I am on the same page to learn as another human being whilst in a discussion (whether we agree on the topic or not). I think joy when I see others trying to understand one another. I have my moments of fulfillment when I am sitting out under the stars and contemplating what we call "Life."

On this day that we were in the store, it occurred to me what was happening. I noticed the Christmas music in the background, the smells, the samples, and the attention that was being drawn to “stuff” by the Santa. It was our senses that were being manipulated and it was the contributing factor to my basket having more than the usual amount (which, I quickly took control of) and my children “wanting, wanting, wanting” … whereas they are not at all that way on any other normal day.

Given my curious nature, I came home and searched the Scriptures. I found two places where the word “sense” is used.

In light of the scenario I shared above, is there anything that can be drawn from the following two passages?

Nehemiah 8:8 and Hebrews 5:14

How do you think our senses, that being taste, smell, touch, sight, and hearing have to do with our understanding of the Law of God?

Also, what about common sense? What is it to have a deeper sense of Reality?

And how can the mystical be considered beneficial to our understanding of Reality (for those that subscribe to it)?

Remember that it was the house of Israel that had the problems with idolatry, in which they were then scattered among the Gentiles Nations according to Hosea 8:8. So, is it all possible that the NT was sent out into the world to “teach” them? Perhaps "faith" being a lesson to be learned? After all, there is what is written in Jeremiah 17.

Thoughts?

 

[Thief]

You bounced several perceptions rather quickly.

I could say believing in God makes good sense....
but several participants here at the forum will disagree.

I could say common sense should be a technique of thought....and it is....
but that would turn into a lengthy thread, and the out come could be vague.

I could say common sense is more like reflex, as most people run from harm.
But then some people don't.
We call them victims....or we call them heroes.
Then we go back to that perspective thing again, trying to reason which it may be.

Sense and Faith?
At this moment I 'get' a notion of two different kinds of soup in the same bowl.

 

[IF_u_knew]

You bounced several perceptions rather quickly.

I can see how it would seem like this.

In the NT, it says "faith is the evidence of things NOT seen." What it does NOT say is that "faith is the evidence of the truth." Then, how do YOU know that YOUR faith is truth? Don't you think that the followers of Jim Jones thought that theirs was truth at one time?

Faith is real ... but how is it real? I think only in the mind and not at all in the greater Reality.

I know in churches (from when I was growing up) often music, fluctuations in the tone of the preaching, lighting, etc are used, thus working up the emotions of the congregation (I don't assume intentionally, of course) ... and thus, many of the experiences I *thought* I had were nothing more than manipulation through the senses. It helped to alter my perception of reality at the time.

And again, I have to admit that the NT is not lying to say that faith is the evidence of things unseen. It is actually a valid truth, only not from the perspective of Christianity. It makes me wonder then, in light of what is said in Jeremiah 17 ... Is it a test of the mind ... the Nt, that is?

 

[theosopher]

I can see how it would seem like this.

In the NT, it says "faith is the evidence of things NOT seen." What it does NOT say is that "faith is the evidence of the truth." Then, how do YOU know that YOUR faith is truth? Don't you think that the followers of Jim Jones thought that theirs was truth at one time?

Faith is real ... but how is it real? I think only in the mind and not at all in the greater Reality.

Hi,

I was looking up the word seen today to see how many greek words were interpreted as the english word 'seen'.

The word that Jesus used to Thomas in saying, 'now that you have seen you believe', has the meaning of 'to look'.

When he said, 'he who has seen me has seen the father', the word can mean 'to experience'.

When he descended into the closed upper room, that was evidence that he had somewhere disappeared in order that he could come into the room making his appearance.

Philip had disappeared after baptizing the Ethiopian, he has caught up by the spirit of god.

There are scriptures which tell us that we are to experience god through sight and taste, I believe.

To come and go like the wind does, unseen, is to be reborn of his spirit. In that experience you know him, because he has remade you.

best regards,

Vincent

 

[God4me]

Before Thanksgiving, my sister and I were at the grocery store. We were amazed to walk in and see not only a Santa Claus walking around, but all the Christmas stuff out full force. As I was making my way through the store, I noticed that my cart was filling up more quickly than usual as well as my two sons were asking non-stop for this and that and, well ... everything.

Now, those who don’t know me might consider me somewhat of a "penny pincher," but the truth is, I don’t look at stuff and see “happiness.” I don’t look at food and think “contentment.” I don’t think of a song and think “joy.” I think contentment when I read the words of another that I “get.” I think happiness when I am on the same page to learn as another human being whilst in a discussion (whether we agree on the topic or not). I think joy when I see others trying to understand one another. I have my moments of fulfillment when I am sitting out under the stars and contemplating what we call "Life."

On this day that we were in the store, it occurred to me what was happening. I noticed the Christmas music in the background, the smells, the samples, and the attention that was being drawn to “stuff” by the Santa. It was our senses that were being manipulated and it was the contributing factor to my basket having more than the usual amount (which, I quickly took control of) and my children “wanting, wanting, wanting” … whereas they are not at all that way on any other normal day.

Given my curious nature, I came home and searched the Scriptures. I found two places where the word “sense” is used.

In light of the scenario I shared above, is there anything that can be drawn from the following two passages?

Nehemiah 8:8 and Hebrews 5:14

How do you think our senses, that being taste, smell, touch, sight, and hearing have to do with our understanding of the Law of God?

Also, what about common sense? What is it to have a deeper sense of Reality?

And how can the mystical be considered beneficial to our understanding of Reality (for those that subscribe to it)?

Remember that it was the house of Israel that had the problems with idolatry, in which they were then scattered among the Gentiles Nations according to Hosea 8:8. So, is it all possible that the NT was sent out into the world to “teach” them? Perhaps "faith" being a lesson to be learned? After all, there is what is written in Jeremiah 17.

Thoughts?

We can't understand God with our five senses, God has given us a sixth sense called "Faith", God has also given us His Holy Spirit to help us understand the things of God.
To many of God's people go by what they feel hear or see, They feel ill so they say,"I am ill", They hear bad news so they get upset, They see bad things happening to them and get depressed.
But if they were to See and hear what God has to say about their situations, Faith will come, Then feelings will follow faith.
Then if they get sick, They say, By His stripes I am healed, If they hear bad news they'll say, God always cuaseth me to triumph, If they see bad things happening to them, They say, "I'm not going by what I see", I am going by what I see in God's word.

 

[Thief]

We can't understand God with our five senses, God has given us a sixth sense called "Faith", God has also given us His Holy Spirit to help us understand the things of God.
To many of God's people go by what they feel hear or see, They feel ill so they say,"I am ill", They hear bad news so they get upset, They see bad things happening to them and get depressed.
But if they were to See and hear what God has to say about their situations, Faith will come, Then feelings will follow faith.
Then if they get sick, They say, By His stripes I am healed, If they hear bad news they'll say, God always cuaseth me to triumph, If they see bad things happening to them, They say, "I'm not going by what I see", I am going by what I see in God's word.

This technique is will fail.

Faith is indeed believing in what cannot be proven....
However, the occasion to affirm your belief will come around, and some response will be required of the question...'why?'.

Why do you believe in what cannot be proven?
Was it witness to a public event that didn't follow the laws of nature?
Was it spontaneous healing, that only you could know?
Was it a dream or vision?
Have you heard a disembodied voice?

The prophets saw and heard such things.
Are you one of them?

 

[IF_u_knew]

Hi,

I was looking up the word seen today to see how many greek words were interpreted as the english word 'seen'.

The word that Jesus used to Thomas in saying, 'now that you have seen you believe', has the meaning of 'to look'.

When he said, 'he who has seen me has seen the father', the word can mean 'to experience'.

When he descended into the closed upper room, that was evidence that he had somewhere disappeared in order that he could come into the room making his appearance.

Philip had disappeared after baptizing the Ethiopian, he has caught up by the spirit of god.

There are scriptures which tell us that we are to experience god through sight and taste, I believe.

To come and go like the wind does, unseen, is to be reborn of his spirit. In that experience you know him, because he has remade you.

best regards,

Vincent

This reminded me of Isaiah 27, particularly verses 8 and 9. Why do ppl automatically take the word "spirit" and assume it to mean something mystical like a ghost, when really it is disposition? Take the words of Jesus ... there is a particular spirit in them, but it is "disposition" rather than what most ppl think, which is the mystical. Example: "she has a sweet spirit." <----- well, Jesus had the spirit of the People, the Son of God (Israel Exodus 4:22), in his words. Then, the only way to understand the spirit of his words, you must understand the People that he came from. According to him, the best way for knowing that is through Moses. John 5:39-47 .. the only way Jesus was spoken of by Moses was as one OF the People (you won't find him specifically spoken of anywhere in the Tanakh).

How about Gandhi? He was enlightened and fought for his people valiantly. The world has seen much wisdom in the words that he spoke and yet, we do not worship him as well as we understand that his mission was not for the world and rather for his people (then, that is what makes me think of Isaiah 27:8-9).

Why can't the world do the same for Jesus, and even more, for his People? Why must he have been turned into an image to be worshipped of the world thus cheapening who and what his words were about?

Because of faith ... and faith is not the evidence of truth but rather things not seen.

 

[IF_u_knew]

We can't understand God with our five senses, God has given us a sixth sense called "Faith", God has also given us His Holy Spirit to help us understand the things of God.

Where does it say that God gave us "faith?" How can He give us something that He does not possess. Psalm 147:5, Ecclesiastes 7:29

To many of God's people go by what they feel hear or see, They feel ill so they say,"I am ill", They hear bad news so they get upset, They see bad things happening to them and get depressed.

This is because we are humans BEING and not robots.

But if they were to See and hear what God has to say about their situations, Faith will come, Then feelings will follow faith.

Then if they get sick, They say, By His stripes I am healed, If they hear bad news they'll say, God always cuaseth me to triumph, If they see bad things happening to them, They say, "I'm not going by what I see", I am going by what I see in God's word.

Mostly, what you are speaking of is called denial and indeed, faith contributes to many who choose to deny our make-up as humans being. Again, Ecclesiastes 7:29. It is truth that good can always be found, but NEVER through denial.

 

[AK4]

Before Thanksgiving, my sister and I were at the grocery store. We were amazed to walk in and see not only a Santa Claus walking around, but all the Christmas stuff out full force. As I was making my way through the store, I noticed that my cart was filling up more quickly than usual as well as my two sons were asking non-stop for this and that and, well ... everything.

Now, those who don’t know me might consider me somewhat of a "penny pincher," but the truth is, I don’t look at stuff and see “happiness.” I don’t look at food and think “contentment.” I don’t think of a song and think “joy.” I think contentment when I read the words of another that I “get.” I think happiness when I am on the same page to learn as another human being whilst in a discussion (whether we agree on the topic or not). I think joy when I see others trying to understand one another. I have my moments of fulfillment when I am sitting out under the stars and contemplating what we call "Life."

On this day that we were in the store, it occurred to me what was happening. I noticed the Christmas music in the background, the smells, the samples, and the attention that was being drawn to “stuff” by the Santa. It was our senses that were being manipulated and it was the contributing factor to my basket having more than the usual amount (which, I quickly took control of) and my children “wanting, wanting, wanting” … whereas they are not at all that way on any other normal day.

Given my curious nature, I came home and searched the Scriptures. I found two places where the word “sense” is used.

In light of the scenario I shared above, is there anything that can be drawn from the following two passages?

Nehemiah 8:8 and Hebrews 5:14

How do you think our senses, that being taste, smell, touch, sight, and hearing have to do with our understanding of the Law of God?

Also, what about common sense? What is it to have a deeper sense of Reality?

And how can the mystical be considered beneficial to our understanding of Reality (for those that subscribe to it)?

Remember that it was the house of Israel that had the problems with idolatry, in which they were then scattered among the Gentiles Nations according to Hosea 8:8. So, is it all possible that the NT was sent out into the world to “teach” them? Perhaps "faith" being a lesson to be learned? After all, there is what is written in Jeremiah 17.

Thoughts?

Heya,

Its been a long while. Just thought id say whats up.

 

[theosopher]

This reminded me of Isaiah 27, particularly verses 8 and 9. Why do ppl automatically take the word "spirit" and assume it to mean something mystical like a ghost, when really it is disposition? Take the words of Jesus ... there is a particular spirit in them, but it is "disposition" rather than what most ppl think, which is the mystical. Example: "she has a sweet spirit." <----- well, Jesus had the spirit of the People, the Son of God (Israel Exodus 4:22), in his words. Then, the only way to understand the spirit of his words, you must understand the People that he came from. According to him, the best way for knowing that is through Moses. John 5:39-47 .. the only way Jesus was spoken of by Moses was as one OF the People (you won't find him specifically spoken of anywhere in the Tanakh).

How about Gandhi? He was enlightened and fought for his people valiantly. The world has seen much wisdom in the words that he spoke and yet, we do not worship him as well as we understand that his mission was not for the world and rather for his people (then, that is what makes me think of Isaiah 27:8-9).

Why can't the world do the same for Jesus, and even more, for his People? Why must he have been turned into an image to be worshipped of the world thus cheapening who and what his words were about?

Because of faith ... and faith is not the evidence of truth but rather things not seen.

Spirit is well known to the world from ancient times and it certainly is not simply a psychological state of mind. It is the ultimate state of existence. If your body should enter into the spiritual state, you would experience your self as an atmosphere which may also have properties of water and light. Buddhists can train you to enter such a state they call it the rainbow body.

After you have become atmospheric with a sincere intention you can pass into non-existence. An if god sends you back, you have been born again, god has delivered you, the name of his son.

 

[IF_u_knew]

Spirit is well known to the world from ancient times and it certainly is not simply a psychological state of mind. It is the ultimate state of existence. If your body should enter into the spiritual state, you would experience your self as an atmosphere which may also have properties of water and light. Buddhists can train you to enter such a state they call it the rainbow body.

After you have become atmospheric with a sincere intention you can pass into non-existence. An if god sends you back, you have been born again, god has delivered you, the name of his son.

Sounds like nothing more than imaginations at work, to be honest. To each his own I guess. I much prefer to be as I was created .. Ecclesiastes 7:29

Now, to clarify about the spirit, I am not saying that God is simply a state of the mind ... though, I do believe the spirit of God is speaking of certain disposition. Genesis 1, I would think is speaking on a level of disposition. Certainly, though, when we are speaking of the spirit as it applies to us, it is speaking of disposition. Without the physical boundaries, we would not exist as we are; that being as individuals. And we, as individuals, help to create through concepts. We either will make this heaven or we make it hell. It is that simple. Did you know that we are connected to everything in the universe through energy??? Our energy affects all that is out there. Then, is the spirit of mankind contributing to or harming what is being created? I wonder!

What you speak of above and what many others are speaking of, all over the place .. this mystical stuff .. sounds like denial of Reality to me. Denial is only contributing to the state we find ourselves in on this planet even now. Ezekiel 18:32 sounds like the most Logical plan of salvation for mankind to me ..

"For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye."

No sacrifices involved ... it is not unjust (meaning .. everyone has the ability and everything we need already to do it) ... and it doesn't require denying the Reality that we are in. Straight to the point and simple, no?

 

[theosopher]

Straight to the point and simple, no?

The gospel is good news. Good news makes you happy. If you can take yourself away from your misery for awhile and express your happiness to god he will grant you real blessings.

You turn away from mystical experience. Mystical saints are the greatest saints and we are all called to be saints. God moves in mysterious ways. Love can give you courage to withstand the mystery of his moves.

Jesus was probably the greatest lover we have ever known, and we know his love because he expressed it to god and his power made that love miracles.

The miracles were very mysterious to Jesus himself happily mysterious:

Mar 8:16-21 And they discussed it with one another, saying, "We have no bread." And being aware of it, Jesus said to them, "Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive or understand? Are your hearts hardened? Having eyes do you not see, and having ears do you not hear? And do you not remember? When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces did you take up?" They said to him, "Twelve." "And the seven for the four thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces did you take up?" And they said to him, "Seven." And he said to them, "Do you not yet understand?"

 

[IF_u_knew]

The gospel is good news. Good news makes you happy. If you can take yourself away from your misery for awhile and express your happiness to god he will grant you real blessings.

whilst we may have different points of view in this discussion, you have touched on such a beautiful Truth here. I **absolutely** agree especially with this third sentence of yours! Thank you for expressing this! Then in light of, I must express my happiness! Psalm 118 :yes:

You turn away from mystical experience.

I would not say so much that I turn AWAY from it, and rather I don't see how it is relevant to what is outside our own personal minds. Nothing more than imagination at play ... IMHO!

Mystical saints are the greatest saints and we are all called to be saints. God moves in mysterious ways. Love can give you courage to withstand the mystery of his moves.

Perhaps ... though I am not sure what you mean by "mystical saints." Do you care to explain, please?

Jesus was probably the greatest lover we have ever known, and we know his love because he expressed it to god and his power made that love miracles.

I see Jesus' greatest love was rather displayed to his own People. I am not undermining his love for God at all, but rather I think it was displayed through the love that he showed to the People he was sent to. Gandhi did the same thing for his own as well as Muhammad. Then, there seems to be a lesson there to me. You?

The miracles were very mysterious to Jesus himself happily mysterious:

Mar 8:16-21 And they discussed it with one another, saying, "We have no bread." And being aware of it, Jesus said to them, "Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive or understand? Are your hearts hardened? Having eyes do you not see, and having ears do you not hear? And do you not remember? When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces did you take up?" They said to him, "Twelve." "And the seven for the four thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces did you take up?" And they said to him, "Seven." And he said to them, "Do you not yet understand?"

Do you understand the mystery of this passage? If so, care to enlighten me given I will have to admit to not knowing my own self?